Anij

ASL doesn't have a sign for "every word" because NO language has a sign for "every word" ...

If you'd like to get involved with explaining how ASL works ... I'd suggest becoming conversationally fluent first - it's inappropriate for someone ignorant in the a specific language to comment on the linguistic "failures" of that language - especially if can't even have a 10min basic conversation in it.
.... which, incidentally is why I don't comment on the what I may perceive "failings" of Chinese, German, French etc ... because I know too little about them to be able to make an EDUCATED (thus valid) post/comment about them....

IF you really want to talk about ASL ... go get fluent (we'll even help you) then you'll have the right to "explain" things about it.

Deafness

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Silentwolfdog

English is quite a thief! It has stolen...uhh...I mean borrowed hundreds of words from over a hundred languages of the world and continue to doing so even now!

Quite a thief, isn't it?!

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posts from hell

Everyone else responded.. They nailed it. Even the hearing people, oooo.

wavedancer

My hearing husband is a good example of why MCE's are used. My husband, among other things is an English teacher. My husband thinks in Engllish.

I speak Mulitple languages, I do not always think in english. I Code-switch alot. My husband does NOT code-switch well at all.

I had to teach him some SEE signs in order for him to be able to communicate with me manually. ASL IS a langauge wit it's own Syntax and grammer, and he is having a hard time getting the hang of those.

MCE's are for the convience of hearing people who need to communicate with Deaf people.

If my husband doesn't understand, " I go store" to mean, "i am going to the store", it doesn't mean the ASL is incomplete as a langauge, only that his knowledge of ASL is incomplete.

Overcharging at 2 cent

Mountain Man

I wish ASL didn't have fingerspelling only because I suck at reading it.

Anij

Wirelessly posted (Blackberry Curve 8310)

MCE (manually coded English) is primarily used as a mode to show ENGLISH visually...

Most of the people who use MCE are new signers, who's first language is ENGLISH - they have difficulty learning ASL's grammar (as do most people who learn a new language) ... As such when these people (who think in English) are signing they tend to retain a more "English form" to their signing .... Very much like when French/English immersion students are learning both languages they will sometimes apply language rules from one language to the other - in the case of French&English the result is a Pidgen called "Franglais" ...which is a spoken language equivalent to what MCE is to ASL.

Bill - you have a number of misconceptions, ignorances (meaning lack of knowledge) and prejudices about ASL ... I'm not sure if this is because you had a negative experience when you starting associating with CHS, or if you feel that if you learn and use ASL people will think differently of you (look down to you, think you're 'stupid' etc) or what the issue is ... However I would encourage you to make a choice:

A) consider learning more about ASL from local ASL users (many of whom are well respected professionals, and many of whom, like myself also speak) so that you can learn what ASL is REALLY like

Or

B) refrain from posting about ASL while you are ignorant about the topic.

CHS has a number of ASL classes, and the T.O. Area has a number of opportunities to socialize with ASLers (many of whom also speak) which would allow you to actually learn about what ASL really is - you may be surprised and find that if you give it an honest chance you may even like it ...heck, you may make some fantastic new friends who share much in common with you - as well as having a slightly different perspective (always great for conversations!!)

If you are interested in learning some basic ASL, and have a webcam - I'd be happy to show you some basic signs using one of the many free IM programs which have simultaneous video and text capabilities.


If you aim is to be informative and helpful to others - please stick to posting on topics in which you are well versed/educated ... So that others looking for information are able to find accurate comments by individuals well versed/educated and informed on which they post.

Mis-information based on prejudice & ignorance is almost always worse and more harmful than no information at all.

__________________
Hoh/Deaf ~ +120db deaf right , mild/mod flux left & APD
English & ASL ...PAH!!


Ignorance is NOT Bliss

Mountain Man

That's why my son attends a Deaf school so he's around native signers all day. We sign as much as we can at home, but even after 2 years of intensive college level study, I still don't consider myself proficient enough to be a language model.

Mountain Man

It doesn't help that a common misconception is that ASL is just English with your hands, so a lot of people try to learn it that way simply because they don't know any better.

Mountain Man

There is not a corresponding sign for every English word for the very simple reason that there doesn't need to be because ASL doesn't communicate words, it communicates concepts.

rockdrummer

And if I may add, it's also a visual and spatial language. Not spoken or written.

drphil

That is interesting ASL communicates in "concepts" which are not translatable into English words either spoken/written. Yeah right- "advanced imaginary concepts" wholly circumscribed within ASL. Secret-no doubt. Silly question can this be the same in British Sign Language which appear to use English also?
What a discussion re Fingerspelling necessary? I know from the Introduction ASL book-just visual/spatial as it is not spoken or written just signed,What else could it be?
I have been involved with CHS since 1992-Hearing Help classes-as I have mentioned before. ASL was not a subject taken there.

Implanted Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07

Reba

Just as you don't use ASL, I don't use BSL, so I can't make an educated statement about it.

The fact that the title of the book includes "Introduction" should be a clue to you that it's not a deep book on the linguistics of ASL.

I have been involved with CHS since 1992-Hearing Help classes-as I have mentioned before. ASL was not a subject taken there.[/QUOTE]
CHS?

drphil

There is no problem in explaining why MCE/ SEE1/2 is used. Seems to be easier to learn. Amazing! Why?
Wasn't the "problem" of residential schools that ASL was NOT used as spoken English was taught to the deaf? Is this mythology?
I assume when one has "conversation in ASL" one can only use the signs known. Correct? I have no comment on "deaf individuals who are totally illiterate in English" interact in an English speaking American environment.
"fingerspelling" seems to have been capitalized also.
All reference to English relates to the fact that is the language being used here.
CHS-Canadian Hearing Society -Spadina Rd Toronto Hearing Help/speechreading classes 2nd floor Speech Language Pathology Section-Does NOT teach ASL which is a separate section.
Any opinion of mine re ASL does NOT come from any class at CHS. In actuality my opinions were "formed" from the many books, Toronto PUBLIC LIBRARY, also read about 'deafness' various newspapers' article re Cochlear Implants as "instruments of genocide to the deaf community". My interest came from the fact I KNEW I would become deaf after losing all hearing Right ear in Feb 1992. I was investigated re " tumours/cancer etc and advised the likely happening. That is also why I took - 3 separate classes re ASL till deciding the futility of continuing-without having having "practice partner". I am widowed. Both teachers agreed in my SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCE. Yeah- Deafness happened December 20, 2006. That is when I started the process at Sunnybrook-Cochlear Implant section. Fortunately successful!

Implanted Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07

Tousi

Response withdrawn....

Anij

Bill - while you may have not ELECTED to take ASL classes during your time taking various Hearing Help Classes, it's not as if CHS doesn't offer ASL classes, in fact they actaully encourage it. The way you repeated phase how you've taken many classes via CHS and NONE of them have involved ASL instruction seems to implicate that CHS somehow doesn't provide access to classes, or believe that ASL classes are valuable or important for individuals with all levels of hearing loss, which is actaully far from true.

This is directly from the CHS website:
CHS then provides information on accessing ASL classes for individuals, businesses and organizations etc as well (on another page) information how to book ASL interpreters etc.

CHS also provides throughout their website a number of videos in ASL along side various documents and text - including the "About CHS" section which states (ASL video at ABOUT CHS )


You've made the choice (for whatever reason) to dislike ASL, decide you have no use for it etc - which is your choice ... however you've also implied in multiple posts that CHS didn't have ASL classes as a core choice along side your Hearing Help Classes - which is simply not true. ASL classes have been, are, and will continue to be available to you and all D/HH at CHS - all you've ever had to do is sign up for that section of CHS's d/Deaf and Hard of Hearing services, just like you've repeatedly signed up for the hearing help classes.





One thing that many people don't realize is that English doesn't actually have an extremely large NATIVE vocabulary (ie words are are truly "English" and not borrowed or manipulated words from other languages. English, since it's inception has "grown" by adding to it's "vocabulary bank" by borrowing/adopting words from other languages, combining existing English words (or parts thereof) together in order to create new "modified words", blending English words with foreign words to form new words, and added both "native" and foreign prefixes and suffixes to words in order to slightly modify a words meaning. Each of these expands the word usage of English speakers - but does so not by creating new English words, as much as "deciding" to make a foreign word "count" in English as well (Foyer, Naive, Doppleganger, foliage, bureau, attache, bonbon, etc).

In ASL, "core signs" (my term, meaning a sign you'd likely find in a ASL dictionary which has been assigned an English gloss) are altered - sometimes in a manner that is very obvious (initializing, contact point changes etc), sometimes in a manner which is very subtle (the intensity with which a sign is formed, the size of the sign, the way the sign moves etc)...and sometimes in between the two.

These intentional, skilled changes to the way a single "core sign" (which can be ANY sign) create in ASL, what in would amount to a series of different words in English (or any other spoken language).


Here is one of the literally thousands of examples of how a "core sign" (a sign you'd find in an ASL dictionary with an associated English Gloss) through the use subtle changes in movement, intensity, space ete is transformed to show a spectrum of meaning just as English does through different words.
The core sign "FRIEND" can be adjusted by the signer to mean:
"an acquaintance", "a buddy","best friend/BFF", "someone with whom you are inseparable" etc.
People who are fluent in ASL, understand the subtle changes to make "FRIEND" transmit the correct subtle meaning (which in English would be a separate word).

The issue for people who aren't fluent in ASL, or understand the linguistic structure of ASL is that they flip through ASL dictionaries and find only the sign for the "core sign" (FRIEND), and nothing when they search for "acquaintance" etc. Likewise if they ask someone how to sign "acquaintance" (espeically if they ask a friend who may "use ASL, but isn't natively fluent in it - OR ask an ASL instructor while in an educational setting who is teaching ASL100-300 ... NOT an advanced ASL skills/linguistics class) they would either be told use "FRIEND" (leading them to believe they're the same), or told to fingerspell it if they need to be absolutely clear - the reason... because ASL doesn't have a separate sign for "acquaintance", rather the signer makes minute (yet readable) adjustments in HOW they use the "core sign" for FRIEND so that it has the same concept in ASL and the English word "acquaintance" - skilled signers watching the person sign "FRIEND", then "acquaintance", then "BFF/inseparable friend" would clearly be able to tell the difference ... however -- once again --- because ASL is NOT a "visual version of English" and doesn't have a TRUE written form - it means that the intended meaning is very often LOST in translation... which is an absolutely identical problem that ALL languages face when translated.

This is actually one of the reasons why skilled ASL/English interpreters are soooo very important (versus "signers" who've taken some ASL classes). A skilled interpreter understands the subtle changes a fluent signer utilizes to transform a "core sign" into a synonym with a subtle difference in intended meaning.



I hope this helps clear up some of the incorrect assumptions you have about how ASL works, and why many people think that ASL lacks the extensive vocabulary that English has ... which of course is actually not the case at all - in fact in many ways ASL is uniquely able to demonstrate minute differences in intended meaning better than spoken language through subtle shifts/alterations/accents etc to a sign, movement or phrase.

drphil

Anij: My addition to #43 re CHS. I know they offer ASL courses which in my opinion costs much more than Hearing Help/Speechreading classes. I have never denied this. None of my classes involved ASL while I was there! Today? Most of the persons taking Hearing Help classes are "starting to deal with current loss". Taking ASL would NOT help in any way except if one want to learn ASL. This is independent to dealing with Hearing Loss-in my opinion. I don't recall ANYONE taking both courses at the same time- from 1992 to 2007. Possible-depends on one's fiscal circumstances!/time available. . No class that I was in ever discussed that one SHOULD take ASL as a way of coping with your Hearing Loss. Further there is NOTHING in the many class materials- Hearing Help classes 1 to 4-that one should study ASL! I am talking about ONLY the classes that I was in over the 15 year time frame.
I have mentioned before I was part of the CHS/York University study on persons use CHS classes in dealing their Hearing loss. Again NO mention of ASL.
As to ASL in comparison to say spoken/written English-no comment. I understand from books- that only 25% of real deaf use ASL-presumably the other 75% use spoken English in some manner. Of course the number of persons getting Cochlear Implants rather than remain deaf also say something. Exact numbers-no idea but apparently increasing.
Off to Cochlear Implant exercise shortly. Bill

Implanted-Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07

posts from hell

70% of the blind don't know braille. That acceptable? Similar with the deaf....

drphil

So what! Using "alternate" methods? Isn't up to the specific person what to do? What does the fact of the non use of ASL by the deaf indicate in reality- other than those having Cochlear Implants? Some speaking at least enough to "socially interact".

Implanted Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07

posts from hell

That's not the point. If they choose to do that, fine by me. If they don't know crap about ASL, they better not say they know it all about the language and tell others what to do...

drphil

"crap" in the "eye of beholder"?-free speech? doesn't everyone have the right to spout off? Gee why would the "blind" or "deaf" consult with the ignorant on their specific condition-only on computer screens?

Implanted Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07

souggy

What he's referring to is the unemployment rate among the blind. It's somewhere between 70-90% unemployed. About 90% of the blind and low vision don't know Braille. The ones who have jobs, nearly all of them knows Braille.

Unfortunately such statistic for the deaf haven't went through Census yet, so we have no idea how old the unemployed deaf are, what's the cause of their hearing loss, whether or not they're late-deafened or not and what's their primary choice of language is.

I mention late-deafened, because I find people who are deaf later in life are more inclined to give up looking for a job.

__________________
"It is my task to convince you not to turn away because you don’t understand it." - Richard Freynman

posts from hell

Wow... you get it.

Reba

Good.

Which books?

Pre or post lingual deaf? Late deafened?

What exactly is the "something" that it says?

I've interpreted for many deaf people who have CI's; they don't quit using sign language just because they have CI's. They still remain deaf. They don't get CI's under the delusion that they will no longer be deaf.

Near-sighted people who wear eye glasses to improve their vision are still near-sighted.

Mountain Man

No, it is translatable into spoken and written English, there just isn't always a 1:1 correspondence between a sign and an English word.

One of your misconceptions seems to be that fingerspelling is an intrusion into ASL when it's really a part of a language just as much as any sign.

Yes, you have made it abundantly clear that you have little knowledge of ASL. Some of your commentary also makes you sound bigoted, but I'm pretty sure you don't care.

drphil

There is no mentioned that 70% of the blind who don't use braille is related to employment.Is this similar hypothesis to the"deaf" that don't use ASL?
I understand fingerspelling covers over the fact that there is NOT a "specific sign" for every word in English-correct? Fingerspelling just the 26 letters of the alphabet. How concepts fit into all of this-not sure? Yeah-advanced linguistics!
Bigoted to a language-- new meaning to words? Is "language" now a person?
The comment about ASL is NOT part of Hearing Help classes at CHS.- is correct. No one stops anyone from taking the CHS ASL courses- just pay the fee and attend the classes.
Not sure where tactile ASL is taught? Never enquired.
As the idea of "concept" in ASL seems Harlan Lane et al-A Journey into the Deaf-World. don't list that idea in their book index. Minor problem no doubt.
The books this idea-not all Deaf use ASL is mentioned in Rebuilt-Chorost and Wired for sound-Biderman. Biderman herself is an example of a deaf person that didn't use ASL from a very young age-5 or 6, when she became deaf. I believe, she used extensive Speechreading skills. She lived a real small Ontario town-Picton where there were no "deaf community".Chorost made reference to Gallaudet. I guess he forget to check "alldeaf.com"!
It is correct to say that a Cochlear Implant doesn't change the fact that one is deaf-for the rest of their life. I am deaf! That isn't the problem-WHY does one get an Implant in the FIRST place? If one "know/uses" ASL before getting an implant doesn't change anything- use it all you want to whoever knows it. Free country!
More interesting discussion in Sociology re "in vs out" groups within the "lens of language"


Implanted Advanced bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07

posts from hell

80-90% of the blind are unemployed.... Why? They can speak and hear....

(i know the answer to this one.. )

posts from hell

heh, advanced linguistics? more advanced than english, for sure.

rockdrummer

could it be discrimination?

souggy

Because they can't read, and companies don't want to reproduce audios of documents.

Also blind audio-reading technology (ie. ZoomText and OpenBook) are shoddy. I have both softwares by the way.

__________________
"It is my task to convince you not to turn away because you don’t understand it." - Richard Freynman

posts from hell

No.. hint: follow the money trail