Is it Offensive to Talk while among a Deaf crowd?

kokonut · 08-11-2009, 05:58 PM

A question and a little twist from a previous thread about whether it's offensive to sign in public ( http://www.alldeaf.com/sign-language...gn-public.html ).

Let's say a couple that obviously wear a hearing aid or cochlear implant walk into an eatery section inside a mall, say Mall of Georgia, and come across a huge group (say 80 people) of Deaf people signing away during their monthly get-together. The couple continues to talk and order food and then proceed to the nearest table amongst the crowd. They sit down and begin their conversations with each using their voice. Would this be considered offensive by Deaf people for them to talk verbally in a public place such as I have described in the above? What about using the cell phone to talk while there?

Secondly, would it be offensive to talk into a cell phone (the person is alone), say, on a Deaf campus when it is plainly obvious the person wears a hearing aid or cochlear implant?

Have at it.

Bottesini · 08-11-2009, 06:06 PM

Why would it be offensive? Wouldn't everyone there just assume they are hard of hearing?

***Brian*** · 08-11-2009, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

A question and a little twist from a previous thread about whether it's offensive to sign in public ( http://www.alldeaf.com/sign-language...gn-public.html ).

Let's say a couple that obviously wear a hearing aid or cochlear implant walk into an eatery section inside a mall, say Mall of Georgia, and come across a huge group (say 80 people) of Deaf people signing away during their monthly get-together. The couple continues to talk and order food and then proceed to the nearest table amongst the crowd. They sit down and begin their conversations with each using their voice. Would this be considered offensive by Deaf people for them to talk verbally in a public place such as I have described in the above? What about using the cell phone to talk while there?

Secondly, would it be offensive to talk into a cell phone (the person is alone), say, on a Deaf campus when it is plainly obvious the person wears a hearing aid or cochlear implant?

Have at it.

Well, yes it would be. If they speak and sign at the same time, it should be OK. If they are going to speak and not sign, perhaps they should move to another spot where deaf individuals are not present.

shel90 · 08-11-2009, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian

Well, yes it would be. If they speak and sign at the same time, it should be OK. If they are going to speak and not sign, perhaps they should move to another spot where deaf individuals are not present.

I agree...but if they dont know sign language, what then?

kokonut · 08-11-2009, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian

Well, yes it would be. If they speak and sign at the same time, it should be OK. If they are going to speak and not sign, perhaps they should move to another spot where deaf individuals are not present.

Why should they move? Remember, this eatery section is a public space. They find a table, they sit down and eat and talk while there.

shel90 · 08-11-2009, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

Why should they move? Remember, this eatery section is a public space. They find a table, they sit down and eat and talk while there.

Then I guess not if they are not going there for the Deaf social. If they go to a Deaf social and dont sign even if they do know it, then different story.

kokonut · 08-11-2009, 06:34 PM

Ok. Let's say they use Cued speech then along with the talking?

***VamPyroX*** · 08-11-2009, 06:37 PM

*gasps*

Yes! It's offensive. It's also offensive for a deaf person to sign in the middle of a crowd of hearing people talking!

Just kidding... seriously, why should anyone be offended.

Let's look at Deaf Chat Coffee and Deaf Happy Hour as examples. Both events take place in public locations that are also filled with hearing people. Do we see any deafies getting all upset because a hearing person there talked? Nah!

kokonut · 08-11-2009, 06:52 PM

Not about hearing people. I'm talking about hard of hearing or those who are deaf who wear cochlear implant, for example. Deaf people shouldn't get upset over a deaf/hh person communication preference with another deaf/hh person. When it comes to using a particular mode communication (whether they know sign language or not) to talk and converse it is their right to do so. Even if it means at Deaf chat places, too. After all, who says that Deaf people have the right to regulate "proper mode of communication" in a public setting? They don't. We don't know the circumstances and the reason for talking instead of signing. And really, it's nobody's business since it's in a public setting.

rosie · 08-11-2009, 07:09 PM

I haven't read the other thread too much past the first page, but I guess I'm not really getting what the big deal is. People have to communicate, no matter where they are. If deaf/hoh happen to be in a spot with tons of hearing people and the only way they can communicate is by signing, then they should be able to do that. Just as if hearing people happen to be around deaf people - they should be able to talk. It's like if you're in a restaurant - tons of different conversations going on, no matter the language.

rockdrummer · 08-11-2009, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

A question and a little twist from a previous thread about whether it's offensive to sign in public ( http://www.alldeaf.com/sign-language...gn-public.html ).

Let's say a couple that obviously wear a hearing aid or cochlear implant walk into an eatery section inside a mall, say Mall of Georgia, and come across a huge group (say 80 people) of Deaf people signing away during their monthly get-together. The couple continues to talk and order food and then proceed to the nearest table amongst the crowd. They sit down and begin their conversations with each using their voice. Would this be considered offensive by Deaf people for them to talk verbally in a public place such as I have described in the above? What about using the cell phone to talk while there?

Secondly, would it be offensive to talk into a cell phone (the person is alone), say, on a Deaf campus when it is plainly obvious the person wears a hearing aid or cochlear implant?

Have at it.

It would be wrong for anyone amongst the 80 deaf people (or anyone for that matter) to assume the folks with the HA and CI know how to sign. That said, I can't imagine why anyone would be offended. Just my

mariano · 08-11-2009, 07:24 PM

I don't think it would be rude as long as they are not staring.

shel90 · 08-11-2009, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

Not about hearing people. I'm talking about hard of hearing or those who are deaf who wear cochlear implant, for example. Deaf people shouldn't get upset over a deaf/hh person communication preference with another deaf/hh person. When it comes to using a particular mode communication (whether they know sign language or not) to talk and converse it is their right to do so. Even if it means at Deaf chat places, too. After all, who says that Deaf people have the right to regulate "proper mode of communication" in a public setting? They don't. We don't know the circumstances and the reason for talking instead of signing. And really, it's nobody's business since it's in a public setting.

If it is at a Deaf chat and they go to socialize but don't sign even knowing it, it is rude. They have access to what everyone is saying but others don't have access to what they r saying.

But if they happened to go someplace where there happens to be a Deaf social going on, then, no since they didn't go there to meet and socialize with other Deaf people.

Mountain Man · 08-11-2009, 11:47 PM

If the couple doesn't know anybody in the group and aren't trying to talk with anybody in the group then what does it matter what form of communication they use? It's nobody's business but their own what they're saying unless they choose to share that information with others. Same with the reverse situation with Deaf folks signing around hearing strangers.

Now if they're participants at a social gathering with Deaf signers then of course it would be rude to use voice exclusively.

kipourgos · 08-12-2009, 08:36 AM

I thought about a time in college when some black people I met in the cafeteria and often had lunch with invited me to a party at a skating rink. I got there, I was the only white person there. It was the first time I had ever felt like such a minority. At one point I talked to one of my friends and she asked me if I was having a good time. I said yes but it's a little strange being the only white person there. She said "oh well, I've been in that situation lots of times!"

Deaf people find themselves in this situation all the time; my feeling is that if hearing people have problems with them signing they ought to...get a life? Of course we're not talking about signing to deliberately shut out people who don't sign. And deaf folks are prefectly aware that more people hear than don't, and it's not like seeing someone talk is going to make them all sad that they don't hear as well.

If you're in a group of deaf people and you talk, then signing along with your speech obviously keeps you from excluding folks. But we also live in our larger worlds too. I used to be worried about people getting upset if I spoke English on my cell phone in public when another American called me, now I say to hell with it, we all have our different ways of communicating and they don't really need to know that I'm meeting so-and-so at 7:00 by the Şişli metro stop now, do they?

kokonut · 08-12-2009, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountain Man

If the couple doesn't know anybody in the group and aren't trying to talk with anybody in the group then what does it matter what form of communication they use? It's nobody's business but their own what they're saying unless they choose to share that information with others. Same with the reverse situation with Deaf folks signing around hearing strangers.

Now if they're participants at a social gathering with Deaf signers then of course it would be rude to use voice exclusively.

Well, I set up a scenario already. The two deaf/hh sits at a table and talk to *each other*...not about whether if they are part of the Deaf social scene or not. The thing is, we don't know the situation. All we see is two apparently deaf/hh people (wears hh or ci) who are talking to each other, verbally. They just happened to be in a situation where they're surrounded by a bunch of Deaf people.

Why would it be the Deaf people business on how those two prefer to communicate?

It is not their business to begin with.

kokonut · 08-12-2009, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kipourgos

I thought about a time in college when some black people I met in the cafeteria and often had lunch with invited me to a party at a skating rink. I got there, I was the only white person there. It was the first time I had ever felt like such a minority. At one point I talked to one of my friends and she asked me if I was having a good time. I said yes but it's a little strange being the only white person there. She said "oh well, I've been in that situation lots of times!"

Deaf people find themselves in this situation all the time; my feeling is that if hearing people have problems with them signing they ought to...get a life? Of course we're not talking about signing to deliberately shut out people who don't sign. And deaf folks are prefectly aware that more people hear than don't, and it's not like seeing someone talk is going to make them all sad that they don't hear as well.

If you're in a group of deaf people and you talk, then signing along with your speech obviously keeps you from excluding folks. But we also live in our larger worlds too. I used to be worried about people getting upset if I spoke English on my cell phone in public when another American called me, now I say to hell with it, we all have our different ways of communicating and they don't really need to know that I'm meeting so-and-so at 7:00 by the Şişli metro stop now, do they?

You're quite right. It's really none of their business how you conduct your calls on your cell phone in an open, public setting by yourself. Just as I receive or make calls on my cell phone when I was on the campus of Gallaudet Univ inside a bldg near the eatery place. What am I gonna do? Run into some dark corner out of fear that I might offend a few people? Nah.

shel90 · 08-12-2009, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

Well, I set up a scenario already. The two deaf/hh sits at a table and talk to *each other*...not about whether if they are part of the Deaf social scene or not. The thing is, we don't know the situation. All we see is two apparently deaf/hh people (wears hh or ci) who are talking to each other, verbally. They just happened to be in a situation where they're surrounded by a bunch of Deaf people.

Why would it be the Deaf people business on how those two prefer to communicate?

It is not their business to begin with.

If I was there and saw that, I wouldnt pay attention. I wont make a mountain out of a molehill.

Babyblue · 08-12-2009, 05:06 PM

I find it offensive for people to spend time on their cell phones, at any social meetings. What is the point of going to a social gathering if you are constantly on the phone.

Bebonang · 08-12-2009, 11:52 PM

Well, from what kokonut described about a two hard of hearing people who happened to come to the eatery place to get food and just sit and chat among all 80 Deaf people who are there to eat and social. I think it was an accident on purpose to just eat and talk with each other without being socializing with Deaf people at all. As for cellphones, I think it is probably disrespectful to be talking on the phone in front of his/her friend. If the person had been alone, then the person can talk on the cellphone without any interruptions or interferring. That is my opinion.

Bye the way, if Hard of Hearing might indicate that they have mild hearing loss and can understand what is being said on the phone whether they have hearing aids or CIs. :twocents:

sallylou · 08-13-2009, 12:30 AM

How's this for a guideline? Be considerate and make people feel comfortable and included in social situations. This would cover the rude cell phone users, those who ignore people who can't hear/can't sign (depending on the situation), people who fail to introduce themselves to others in social settings, etc. Be kind. Don't be a self absorbed asshat. Always take a host gift and thank you host. Social skills matter. How's that for motherly advice?

pek1 · 08-13-2009, 03:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

. . . I'm talking about hard of hearing or those who are deaf who wear cochlear implant, for example. Deaf people shouldn't get upset over a deaf/hh person communication preference with another deaf/hh person. When it comes to using a particular mode communication (whether they know sign language or not) to talk and converse it is their right to do so. Even if it means at Deaf chat places, too. After all, who says that Deaf people have the right to regulate "proper mode of communication" in a public setting? They don't. We don't know the circumstances and the reason for talking instead of signing. And really, it's nobody's business since it's in a public setting.

Precisely! I heard once at a deaf meeting that two people were scolded by one deaf guy for not signing. I'd probably tell the guy to buzz off. At the same time, a hearing person who told me that I wasn't deaf just got the brushoff by me (I was in character after a performance, so I couldn't respond more than to say that I am, indeed, deaf).

pek1 · 08-13-2009, 03:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

You're quite right. It's really none of their business how you conduct your calls on your cell phone in an open, public setting by yourself. Just as I receive or make calls on my cell phone when I was on the campus of Gallaudet Univ inside a bldg near the eatery place. What am I gonna do? Run into some dark corner out of fear that I might offend a few people? Nah.

Funny!

I was approached one time on campus at Minnesota State University Moorhead by a deaf/hoh woman who greeted me. As I told her my name, she said she knew who I am and proceeded to tell me that the reason the deaf community in Fargo/Moorhead do not talk to me is because I'm "too oral."

I had one year of asl, as it was required for my major, which I since changed and graduated with a degree in Communication Studies instead of Pre-Audiology.

What a bunch of clods! Yet, when I came to the Signing Santa that year, I only met one deaf guy and everyone else had "the cat that swallowed the canary" look. When I left, I patted Snickers, telling her she did a good job and busted out laughing at the group and how they tried to save face in there.

Jiro · 08-13-2009, 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pek1

Funny!

I was approached one time on campus at Minnesota State University Moorhead by a deaf/hoh woman who greeted me. As I told her my name, she said she knew who I am and proceeded to tell me that the reason the deaf community in Fargo/Moorhead do not talk to me is because I'm "too oral."

I had one year of asl, as it was required for my major, which I since changed and graduated with a degree in Communication Studies instead of Pre-Audiology.

What a bunch of clods! Yet, when I came to the Signing Santa that year, I only met one deaf guy and everyone else had "the cat that swallowed the canary" look. When I left, I patted Snickers, telling her she did a good job and busted out laughing at the group and how they tried to save face in there.

you sure it's because you're "too oral," not your abrasive personality?

KarissaMann05 · 08-13-2009, 04:49 AM

I think it is offensive if they try to social with a bunch of deaf people but don't bother to try signing at all. I would prefer to understand what they say. If they don't social with a bunch of deaf people and talking, then no. I don't consider it is an offensive. I'm personally under the impression that some people (even deafies too) dislike deaf people and are support cure for deafness, and are against signing for deaf babies.

shel90 · 08-13-2009, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KarissaMann05

I think it is offensive if they try to social with a bunch of deaf people but don't bother to try signing at all. I would prefer to understand what they say. If they don't social with a bunch of deaf people and talking, then no. I don't consider it is an offensive. I'm personally under the impression that some people (even deafies too) dislike deaf people and are support cure for deafness, and are against signing for deaf babies.

What surprises me is the hatred for the Deaf community as if we all are one person! Geez!

shel90 · 08-13-2009, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

you sure it's because you're "too oral," not your abrasive personality?

My thoughts exactly.

shel90 · 08-13-2009, 05:17 AM

I have a deaf friend who doesnt know any sign language so if we go to a Deaf social, it is because she wants to learn ASL but of course there will be times, we will talk without signing because she doesnt know ANY so if people get mad at us for that, oh well. However, most of the time people in the Deaf community around here in MD dont really give a shit. They are too busy having fun socializing with their friends to waste their time getting upset by what a few people do. I guess it seems like the Deaf communities in other states are different.

KarissaMann05 · 08-13-2009, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

What surprises me is the hatred for the Deaf community as if we all are one person! Geez!

Yeah... =/

KarissaMann05 · 08-13-2009, 05:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

I have a deaf friend who doesnt know any sign language so if we go to a Deaf social, it is because she wants to learn ASL but of course there will be times, we will talk without signing because she doesnt know ANY so if people get mad at us for that, oh well. However, most of the time people in the Deaf community around here in MD dont really give a shit. They are too busy having fun socializing with their friends to waste their time getting upset by what a few people do. I guess it seems like the Deaf communities in other states are different.

It's kinda of same here, too.

08-11-2009, 05:58 PM	#1 (permalink)
kokonut Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 3,713	Is it Offensive to Talk while among a Deaf crowd? A question and a little twist from a previous thread about whether it's offensive to sign in public ( http://www.alldeaf.com/sign-language...gn-public.html ). Let's say a couple that obviously wear a hearing aid or cochlear implant walk into an eatery section inside a mall, say Mall of Georgia, and come across a huge group (say 80 people) of Deaf people signing away during their monthly get-together. The couple continues to talk and order food and then proceed to the nearest table amongst the crowd. They sit down and begin their conversations with each using their voice. Would this be considered offensive by Deaf people for them to talk verbally in a public place such as I have described in the above? What about using the cell phone to talk while there? Secondly, would it be offensive to talk into a cell phone (the person is alone), say, on a Deaf campus when it is plainly obvious the person wears a hearing aid or cochlear implant? Have at it. __________________ If you're one of those crazy Obama fans please do NOT click here. Warning: May cause seizures.

08-11-2009, 06:06 PM	#2 (permalink)
Bottesini Bodhar agus leath dall Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Middle of dog pack Posts: 16,102	Why would it be offensive? Wouldn't everyone there just assume they are hard of hearing? __________________ It's a joke Nathan!

08-11-2009, 06:34 PM	#7 (permalink)
kokonut Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 3,713	Ok. Let's say they use Cued speech then along with the talking? __________________ If you're one of those crazy Obama fans please do NOT click here. Warning: May cause seizures.

08-11-2009, 06:37 PM	#8 (permalink)
*VamPyroX* bloody phreak from hell Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Hell Posts: 31,473	gasps Yes! It's offensive. It's also offensive for a deaf person to sign in the middle of a crowd of hearing people talking! Just kidding... seriously, why should anyone be offended. Let's look at Deaf Chat Coffee and Deaf Happy Hour as examples. Both events take place in public locations that are also filled with hearing people. Do we see any deafies getting all upset because a hearing person there talked? Nah! __________________ Check out my city... CLICK HERE! (If you already visited yesterday, visit again today!)

08-11-2009, 06:52 PM	#9 (permalink)
kokonut Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 3,713	Not about hearing people. I'm talking about hard of hearing or those who are deaf who wear cochlear implant, for example. Deaf people shouldn't get upset over a deaf/hh person communication preference with another deaf/hh person. When it comes to using a particular mode communication (whether they know sign language or not) to talk and converse it is their right to do so. Even if it means at Deaf chat places, too. After all, who says that Deaf people have the right to regulate "proper mode of communication" in a public setting? They don't. We don't know the circumstances and the reason for talking instead of signing. And really, it's nobody's business since it's in a public setting. __________________ If you're one of those crazy Obama fans please do NOT click here. Warning: May cause seizures.

Today
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08-11-2009, 07:09 PM	#10 (permalink)
rosie just breathe. Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: USA Posts: 59	I haven't read the other thread too much past the first page, but I guess I'm not really getting what the big deal is. People have to communicate, no matter where they are. If deaf/hoh happen to be in a spot with tons of hearing people and the only way they can communicate is by signing, then they should be able to do that. Just as if hearing people happen to be around deaf people - they should be able to talk. It's like if you're in a restaurant - tons of different conversations going on, no matter the language. __________________ ʚ⊱⊰ɞ ʚ⊱⊰ɞ ʚ⊱⊰ɞ ʚ⊱⊰ɞ ʚ⊱⊰ɞ "All children are artists. The problem is how to remain an artist once he grows up." -Pablo Picasso ♥♫☼☺

08-11-2009, 07:24 PM	#12 (permalink)
mariano Registered User Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 144	I don't think it would be rude as long as they are not staring.

08-11-2009, 11:47 PM	#14 (permalink)
Mountain Man Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 73	If the couple doesn't know anybody in the group and aren't trying to talk with anybody in the group then what does it matter what form of communication they use? It's nobody's business but their own what they're saying unless they choose to share that information with others. Same with the reverse situation with Deaf folks signing around hearing strangers. Now if they're participants at a social gathering with Deaf signers then of course it would be rude to use voice exclusively.

08-12-2009, 08:36 AM	#15 (permalink)
kipourgos Registered User Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Istanbul, Turkey Posts: 76	I thought about a time in college when some black people I met in the cafeteria and often had lunch with invited me to a party at a skating rink. I got there, I was the only white person there. It was the first time I had ever felt like such a minority. At one point I talked to one of my friends and she asked me if I was having a good time. I said yes but it's a little strange being the only white person there. She said "oh well, I've been in that situation lots of times!" Deaf people find themselves in this situation all the time; my feeling is that if hearing people have problems with them signing they ought to...get a life? Of course we're not talking about signing to deliberately shut out people who don't sign. And deaf folks are prefectly aware that more people hear than don't, and it's not like seeing someone talk is going to make them all sad that they don't hear as well. If you're in a group of deaf people and you talk, then signing along with your speech obviously keeps you from excluding folks. But we also live in our larger worlds too. I used to be worried about people getting upset if I spoke English on my cell phone in public when another American called me, now I say to hell with it, we all have our different ways of communicating and they don't really need to know that I'm meeting so-and-so at 7:00 by the Şişli metro stop now, do they?

08-12-2009, 05:06 PM	#19 (permalink)
Babyblue Registered User Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 7,539	I find it offensive for people to spend time on their cell phones, at any social meetings. What is the point of going to a social gathering if you are constantly on the phone.

08-12-2009, 11:52 PM	#20 (permalink)
Bebonang "Deaf Cree Militant" Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Manitoulin Island on Lake Huron in Canada Posts: 2,879	Well, from what kokonut described about a two hard of hearing people who happened to come to the eatery place to get food and just sit and chat among all 80 Deaf people who are there to eat and social. I think it was an accident on purpose to just eat and talk with each other without being socializing with Deaf people at all. As for cellphones, I think it is probably disrespectful to be talking on the phone in front of his/her friend. If the person had been alone, then the person can talk on the cellphone without any interruptions or interferring. That is my opinion. Bye the way, if Hard of Hearing might indicate that they have mild hearing loss and can understand what is being said on the phone whether they have hearing aids or CIs. :twocents: __________________ I HAVE BEEN DEAF SINCE BIRTH, AND IT IS STILL AWESOME TO BE . <Deaf> <very happy>

08-13-2009, 12:30 AM	#21 (permalink)
sallylou Registered User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: My own private Idaho Posts: 2,096	How's this for a guideline? Be considerate and make people feel comfortable and included in social situations. This would cover the rude cell phone users, those who ignore people who can't hear/can't sign (depending on the situation), people who fail to introduce themselves to others in social settings, etc. Be kind. Don't be a self absorbed asshat. Always take a host gift and thank you host. Social skills matter. How's that for motherly advice?

08-13-2009, 04:49 AM	#25 (permalink)
KarissaMann05 The Deaf Cougar Join Date: May 2007 Location: Salem, Oregon Posts: 4,463 Blog Entries: 13	I think it is offensive if they try to social with a bunch of deaf people but don't bother to try signing at all. I would prefer to understand what they say. If they don't social with a bunch of deaf people and talking, then no. I don't consider it is an offensive. I'm personally under the impression that some people (even deafies too) dislike deaf people and are support cure for deafness, and are against signing for deaf babies. __________________ "Just think of it as I'm rebelling against your rebellion."

08-13-2009, 05:17 AM	#28 (permalink)
shel90 In a pink and black world Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: In the land of the free Posts: 24,046 Blog Entries: 3	I have a deaf friend who doesnt know any sign language so if we go to a Deaf social, it is because she wants to learn ASL but of course there will be times, we will talk without signing because she doesnt know ANY so if people get mad at us for that, oh well. However, most of the time people in the Deaf community around here in MD dont really give a shit. They are too busy having fun socializing with their friends to waste their time getting upset by what a few people do. I guess it seems like the Deaf communities in other states are different. __________________ Shel~ "A child educated only at school is an uneducated child." -George Santayana

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