Spelling words the way they sound (Oral habits) - Page 5

**Daredevel7** · 05-19-2009, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountain Man

Please don't generalize. Some hearing folks are proficient spellers and some aren't, just as some Deaf folks are proficient spellers and some aren't.

I think the deaf people tend to focus more on reading because for most of them, that's the only way to learn English. However, hearing people take for granted that they can hear English, and don't focus as much on reading. So I wouldn't be surprised if deaf people are better spellers than the hearing. Also knowing the word phonetically tends to confuse your spelling. Examples: hors d'oeuvres or rendezvous (I know they are french, but it was all I can think of at the moment.)

Sometimes I wonder if these mistakes would still apply for Spanish or another language where most, if not all, of the words are actually spelled what they sound like. We all know English sucks!

jillio · 05-19-2009, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naisho

That's exactly what I was trying to start in my first post.. and you've noted even though they've already read your email address (or they should have), they still go and write it in the form most desirable to them.

Although names are a bad example to derive from, it's the MOST COMMON and obvious variant to draw this "pronunciation" thinking process from. A lot of hearing, or HOH people should have had a blunder or blooper with another's name. It's not a solid area to base my hypothesis this on, but like from your own name as you are aware people tend to spell it one way in particular, most closely with what they personally associate it the way they "feel" it should be, just as what I was trying to say about the pronunciation part of definitely-definately.

I have been called the same as well, as Vicky, Vicki and Vickie both as a (in feminine form) derogatory nickname in my childhood, and I have observed what you are describing. This is really all anecdotal until someone takes up the reins on the challenge in this project.

Well, I don't think relying on a particular spelling for a name is so much a phonetic phenomenon, as it is one that has to do with heuristics. If we know someone with a certain name, we tend to spell it the way that person does because the schema we have for that name is the one that comes up when we hear it said. That is more of an experienced based cognitive process. Just like when you see the word chair, an image of a chair will come to mind. Everyone will have a chair come to mind, but the exact chair in our schema is dependent on our personal experience with chairs.

**Bottesini** · 05-19-2009, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountain Man

Please don't generalize. Some hearing folks are proficient spellers and some aren't, just as some Deaf folks are proficient spellers and some aren't.

Please don't tell me what to speak about until you know what I have observed over what period of time.

It is anecdotal evidence but my experience.

Actually don't ever tell me what to say.

**Daredevel7** · 05-19-2009, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bottesini

Please don't tell me what to speak about until you know what I have observed over what period of time.

It is anecdotal evidence but my experience.

Actually don't ever tell me what to say.

Ay dios mio! Ella tiene fuego!

**Bottesini** · 05-19-2009, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

Ay dios mio! Ella tiene fuego!

Sí, y la audiencia hombre quemarse si me molesta!

***naisho*** · 05-19-2009, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafskeptic

My real name is Ellen and a lot of hearing spell my name as Allen. I usually have to tell them my name begins with an e.

You know what I thought, about the naming part? Not the person who hears it. The father/mother who determines their newborn's name.

Names are created by parents alone. They don't necessarily have to have a degree in english to write it "correctly" or a standardized way, I would not be surprised if some of them are naming their children the way they think it is pronounced, or orthographically legal when spelled. They are the source of why the child is named that in the first place. Obviously this doesn't apply to all as some parents maybe WANTED their child to be unique and gave them that special K over C, or extra letters in there.

Like say, Rudy. That's a general name. Some people might interpret it as Rudi or Rudie or even Rudii or Rudee OR Rudey to them depending on the way they themselves want to see it. Look at the Rudee form, this is definitely a phonetic thing where they used two ee's to substitute for the ie / y sound.

Just another

to toss in.

jillio · 05-19-2009, 10:52 AM

Still say it has more to do with heuristics and schemas than with phonetics when you are talking about proper names, or nicknames, as in "Rudy".

***naisho*** · 05-19-2009, 11:31 AM

How about this perspective. Daredevel's idea about spanish gave me an idea about Chinese, one that I am accustomed to, being of Asian-american descent.
Note that I am not saying at all, that this the conclusion to it. I am just drawing more ideas into this discussion, which I'm really finding interesting so far.

We all know names in Chinese written in english are one of the hardest things in the world for most foreigners with their tongues to pronounce. Some of them aren't even phonetically reasonable UNLESS you have a background of chinese yourself, then you can see why it is written the way it is.

When you say some of the following surnames in english:

Wang - this is really supposed to be said as WOH-ONG, not wa-ng they commonly mispronounce in english. The correct way should've been written as Wong.
Chang - there is actually no C sound, it's really a Z
Huang - not too sure on this one. Phonetically its supposed to be like Huu-wong.
Chou - same as chang, Z instead of C. It should phonetically be said like zh-oh
Hsiao (Xiao) - this is pronounced as shi-ow
Hsien - Really no H sound, it's more like Shi-en
Ching - hopefully most people get this right
Le - Some may think this is Li or Lee, but it's actually "luh"

I won't even get started on first names, that's like tier2 that you start to see more errors in.
When I observe non-native foreigners try to pronounce any asian name, they usually get it wrong because they try to pronounce it in the way they see it written to them in english. Ask any guy with a hard to pronounce asian name, I'm sure they will have a story to share with you shaking their heads in the process of storytelling.

Honestly, I already know the legal reasons to why Chinese in English form isn't the most accurate way of saying them phonetically. That is why there is a system tailored specifically for chinese-english language interactions.

This just goes to show that in english, others realize sometimes they mispell what they are saying.

jillio · 05-19-2009, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naisho

How about this perspective. Daredevel's idea about spanish gave me an idea about Chinese, one that I am accustomed to, being of Asian-american descent.
Note that I am not saying at all, that this the conclusion to it. I am just drawing more ideas into this discussion, which I'm really finding interesting so far.

We all know names in Chinese written in english are one of the hardest things in the world for most foreigners with their tongues to pronounce. Some of them aren't even phonetically reasonable UNLESS you have a background of chinese yourself, then you can see why it is written the way it is.

When you say some of the following surnames in english:

Wang - this is really supposed to be said as WOH-ONG, not wa-ng they commonly mispronounce in english.
Chang - there is actually no C sound, it's really a Z
Huang - not too sure on this one
Chou - same as chang, Z instead of C. It should phonetically be said like zh-oh
Hsiao (Xiao) - this is pronounced as shi-ow
Hsien - Really no H sound, it's more like Shi-en
Ching - hopefully most people get this right
Le - Some may think this is Li or Lee, but it's actually "luh"

I won't even get started on first names, that's like tier2 that you start to see more errors in.
When I observe non-native foreigners try to pronounce any asian name, they usually get it wrong because they try to pronounce it in the way they see it written to them in english. Ask any guy with a hard to pronounce asian name, I'm sure they will have a story to share with you shaking their heads in the process of storytelling.

Honestly, I already know the legal reasons to why Chinese in English form isn't the most accurate way of saying them phonetically. That is why there is a system tailored specifically for chinese-english language interactions.

This just goes to show that in english, others realize sometimes they mispell what they are saying.

Now you are talking about the sounds specific to a language that an infant acquires from birth. All infants are born with the capacity for all sounds in all languages. With time, the brain retains only those that are specific to their native language. That is why it is so difficult to speak a language like a native if one has not acquired it from birth, and why accents are so ingrained when speaking a foreign language, such as English spoken with a Chinese accent. That is a completely different topic.

deafbajagal · 05-19-2009, 01:37 PM

True. Even deaf babies can babble literally every sound from every language possible in the world. Isn't that amazing?

Through sounds, babies (hearing, obviously) lose the sounds from languages they do not hear in their surroundings and retain the languages they hear.

Unfortunately, this tidbit doesn't pertain to spelling habits...as different parts of the brain deals with speech, speech recongition, and spelling. ; )

jillio · 05-19-2009, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafbajagal

True. Even deaf babies can babble literally every sound from every language possible in the world. Isn't that amazing?

Through sounds, babies (hearing, obviously) lose the sounds from languages they do not hear in their surroundings and retain the languages they hear.

Unfortunately, this tidbit doesn't pertain to spelling habits...as different parts of the brain deals with speech, speech recongition, and spelling. ; )

Nope, that is an innate capacity, and what naisho is discussing is learned behaviors and learning strategies. Quite unconnected. But fascinating, none the less. At least to me. LOL.

Babyblue · 05-19-2009, 04:54 PM

I tend to spell words the way I hear them. And being HOH... I do not know if that is a good thing, or not,

I have to admit. I am a horrible speller.

Hear Again · 05-20-2009, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bottesini

Sí, y la audiencia hombre quemarse si me molesta!

Translation please?

**Bottesini** · 05-20-2009, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hear Again

Translation please?

Sent you PM.

Mountain Man · 05-20-2009, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bottesini

Please don't tell me what to speak about until you know what I have observed over what period of time.

It is anecdotal evidence but my experience.

Actually don't ever tell me what to say.

So you really think your generalized statement is accurate? That all hearing people are poor spellers? I appreciate that you've had your own experiences, but to apply those experiences to an entire group of people seems grossly unfair.

By the way, I appreciate your ability to discuss our disagreements in a civil manner. Thank you.

Mountain Man · 05-20-2009, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

I wouldn't be surprised if deaf people are better spellers than the hearing. Also knowing the word phonetically tends to confuse your spelling.

It would be an interesting study, wouldn't it, to see if statistically speaking Deaf people are better spellers than hearing, although there are many variables that would need to be considered.

***naisho*** · 05-20-2009, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountain Man

It would be an interesting study, wouldn't it, to see if statistically speaking Deaf people are better spellers than hearing, although there are many variables that would need to be considered.

Oh, it's already been done if you read through with the whole topic. A study conducted by two professionals with that as the purpose of seeing if deaf ignore the phonetic spelling (orthographic) rules.

If you didn't see it, it's somewhere in posts #80-90.

Hear Again · 05-20-2009, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bottesini

Sent you PM.

I just sent a reply.

Adamsmomma · 05-20-2009, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naisho

Case 1
For one example, the word definitely is spelled definitely, correct? Do you tend to notice that some people spell it as definately?

Obviously when spoken in pronunciation form, it sounds as if there is an "a" where it is in the incorrect spelling, as definitely is literally pronounced "deaf-a-nate-ley", in my mind. Some others pronounce it as, "deaf-nate-ley"

What do you think?

I can say on this one... I know I'm probably one of your 'suspects' b/c w/my southern accent I would most likely pronounce it 'deaf-n-ate-ley' so when I'm typing I have to REALLLLLLLLY concentrate to remember it's spelled different then how I 'hear' it... (because I KNOW I spell it incorrectly I will even go around that word so I don't have to use it -- by using other phrases in it's place~ most commonly-- I'll use 'most certainly')

And like one poster said sometimes she spells things wrong b/c she doesn't use spell check here-- I dont either and I'm usually typing on the fly, but if I notice it later I'll go back and fix it... however definitely is a problem for me b/c on autopilot I'll spell it as I hear it~~ I'm sorry

Hear Again · 05-20-2009, 12:54 PM

I don't mean to nitpick, but the phrase "most certainly" is an oxymoron. The word "most" isn't necessary to describe the word "certainly."

Or am I wrong?? :scratch:

deafbajagal · 05-20-2009, 01:01 PM

Yes, you are wrong.

"Most Certainly" is the superlative form of certainly.

Oxymoron is when you have two words which contradict each other.

I'm not sure how this subject relates to the topic of the thread.

***naisho*** · 05-20-2009, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adamsmomma

I can say on this one... I know I'm probably one of your 'suspects' b/c w/my southern accent I would most likely pronounce it 'deaf-n-ate-ley' so when I'm typing I have to REALLLLLLLLY concentrate to remember it's spelled different then how I 'hear' it... (because I KNOW I spell it incorrectly I will even go around that word so I don't have to use it -- by using other phrases in it's place~ most commonly-- I'll use 'most certainly')

And like one poster said sometimes she spells things wrong b/c she doesn't use spell check here-- I dont either and I'm usually typing on the fly, but if I notice it later I'll go back and fix it... however definitely is a problem for me b/c on autopilot I'll spell it as I hear it~~ I'm sorry

Don't worry, I'm not out to get you. The whole reason why I had created this topic was because I kept noticing it as a recurring pattern usually within the hearing/hoh/latedeaf/oral schooled and found my curiosity piqued to seek the answer in it. I could care less myself if others spelled incorrectly as long as I knew and understood what they were saying without having to think twice what they were typing, but I can't speak for das spelling nazi represents.

**Bottesini** · 05-20-2009, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountain Man

So you really think your generalized statement is accurate? That all hearing people are poor spellers? I appreciate that you've had your own experiences, but to apply those experiences to an entire group of people seems grossly unfair.

By the way, I appreciate your ability to discuss our disagreements in a civil manner. Thank you.

Hyperbole

Hear Again · 05-20-2009, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafbajagal

Oxymoron is when you have two words which contradict each other.

That's why I used the word "oxymoron."

The word "most" is a value of degree while the word "certainly" is definitive.

Nevermind. I can't seem to express myself today no matter how hard I try. I give up.

Just thought I'd ask for clarification. Sorry if it was off-topic deafbajagal.

Mountain Man · 05-20-2009, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bottesini

Hyperbole

Fair enough.

Adamsmomma · 05-20-2009, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hear Again

I don't mean to nitpick, but the phrase "most certainly" is an oxymoron. The word "most" isn't necessary to describe the word "certainly."

Or am I wrong?? :scratch:

Even if it is... I spelled it right lol!!!

deafbajagal · 05-20-2009, 05:18 PM

For a good article on Sweden, look at the journal Sign Language Studies, v7 p169-95 Summer 1991.

deafbajagal · 05-20-2009, 05:21 PM

i711.com - Relay & Beyond

And check this one out...it's just an observation report made by someone.

**shel90** · 05-20-2009, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

I think the deaf people tend to focus more on reading because for most of them, that's the only way to learn English. However, hearing people take for granted that they can hear English, and don't focus as much on reading. So I wouldn't be surprised if deaf people are better spellers than the hearing. Also knowing the word phonetically tends to confuse your spelling. Examples: hors d'oeuvres or rendezvous (I know they are french, but it was all I can think of at the moment.)

Sometimes I wonder if these mistakes would still apply for Spanish or another language where most, if not all, of the words are actually spelled what they sound like. We all know English sucks!

Good observation and point. Never thought of it that way.

Hear Again · 05-20-2009, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adamsmomma

Even if it is... I spelled it right lol!!!

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05-19-2009, 10:52 AM	#127 (permalink)
jillio Banned Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 60,296	Still say it has more to do with heuristics and schemas than with phonetics when you are talking about proper names, or nicknames, as in "Rudy".

05-19-2009, 11:31 AM	#128 (permalink)
*naisho* Forum Disorders M.D.,Ph.D Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: 127.0.0.1 Posts: 6,267	How about this perspective. Daredevel's idea about spanish gave me an idea about Chinese, one that I am accustomed to, being of Asian-american descent. Note that I am not saying at all, that this the conclusion to it. I am just drawing more ideas into this discussion, which I'm really finding interesting so far. We all know names in Chinese written in english are one of the hardest things in the world for most foreigners with their tongues to pronounce. Some of them aren't even phonetically reasonable UNLESS you have a background of chinese yourself, then you can see why it is written the way it is. When you say some of the following surnames in english: Wang - this is really supposed to be said as WOH-ONG, not wa-ng they commonly mispronounce in english. The correct way should've been written as Wong. Chang - there is actually no C sound, it's really a Z Huang - not too sure on this one. Phonetically its supposed to be like Huu-wong. Chou - same as chang, Z instead of C. It should phonetically be said like zh-oh Hsiao (Xiao) - this is pronounced as shi-ow Hsien - Really no H sound, it's more like Shi-en Ching - hopefully most people get this right Le - Some may think this is Li or Lee, but it's actually "luh" I won't even get started on first names, that's like tier2 that you start to see more errors in. When I observe non-native foreigners try to pronounce any asian name, they usually get it wrong because they try to pronounce it in the way they see it written to them in english. Ask any guy with a hard to pronounce asian name, I'm sure they will have a story to share with you shaking their heads in the process of storytelling. Honestly, I already know the legal reasons to why Chinese in English form isn't the most accurate way of saying them phonetically. That is why there is a system tailored specifically for chinese-english language interactions. This just goes to show that in english, others realize sometimes they mispell what they are saying.

05-19-2009, 01:37 PM	#130 (permalink)
deafbajagal Registered User Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: USA Posts: 5,171	True. Even deaf babies can babble literally every sound from every language possible in the world. Isn't that amazing? Through sounds, babies (hearing, obviously) lose the sounds from languages they do not hear in their surroundings and retain the languages they hear. Unfortunately, this tidbit doesn't pertain to spelling habits...as different parts of the brain deals with speech, speech recongition, and spelling. ; )

05-19-2009, 04:54 PM	#132 (permalink)
Babyblue Registered User Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 12,033	I tend to spell words the way I hear them. And being HOH... I do not know if that is a good thing, or not, I have to admit. I am a horrible speller.

05-20-2009, 12:54 PM	#140 (permalink)
Hear Again Registered User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 20,122 Blog Entries: 6	I don't mean to nitpick, but the phrase "most certainly" is an oxymoron. The word "most" isn't necessary to describe the word "certainly." Or am I wrong?? :scratch:

05-20-2009, 01:01 PM	#141 (permalink)
deafbajagal Registered User Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: USA Posts: 5,171	Yes, you are wrong. "Most Certainly" is the superlative form of certainly. Oxymoron is when you have two words which contradict each other. I'm not sure how this subject relates to the topic of the thread.

05-20-2009, 05:18 PM	#147 (permalink)
deafbajagal Registered User Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: USA Posts: 5,171	For a good article on Sweden, look at the journal Sign Language Studies, v7 p169-95 Summer 1991.

05-20-2009, 05:21 PM	#148 (permalink)
deafbajagal Registered User Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: USA Posts: 5,171	i711.com - Relay & Beyond And check this one out...it's just an observation report made by someone.