Spelling words the way they sound (Oral habits) - Page 3

Hear Again · 05-17-2009, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASLGAL

No wonder the kids have no clue why they fail English when they get to the college level.

Sadly, this doesn't end at the college level. One of my TAs told us that if we included slang in our papers, she would give us a "D." I asked her after class "You would actually pass a student for including inappropriate language within an argumentative paper?" I was told that she has seen so many examples of poor writing that if she had to fail every student who did such a thing, she would fail almost everyone. If I were that TA, I *would* have failed them regardless.

I used to have a 7th and 11th grade Honors English teacher who used to say things to us like "Sloppy writing is indicative of a sloppy mind" and "If you can't write something worth reading, don't bother writing it at all." Funny how I can still hear their voices after 20+ years.

My 7th grade teacher also used to mark an "A" paper as an "F" if we didn't cross every "t" or dot every "i." I couldn't stand her back then, but when I look back, I'm thankful she was as hard on me as she was because she taught me how to be a good writer. She taught me about the importance of proper grammar and punctuation. Thanks to what I learned in her class, I received a writing award the following year as well as a college scholarship in 11th grade.

I was also fortunate enough to have the positive influence and encouragement of 3 published writers -- my 10th grade English teacher, the advisor of my high school newspaper and an English professor at my university.

I've been lucky to have excellent role models when it comes to writing. Without them, I wouldn't have the love for writing that I do.

**Em903** · 05-17-2009, 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hear Again

My 7th grade teacher also used to mark an "A" paper as an "F" if we didn't cross every "t" or dot every "i." I couldn't stand her back then, but when I look back, I'm thankful she was as hard on me as she was because she taught me how to be a good writer. She taught me about the importance of proper grammar and punctuation. Thanks to what I learned in her class, I received a writing award the following year as well as a college scholarship in 11th grade.

I was also fortunate enough to have the positive influence and encouragement of 3 published writers -- my 10th grade English teacher, the advisor of my high school newspaper and an English professor at my university.

I've been lucky to have excellent role models when it comes to writing. Without them, I wouldn't have the love for writing that I do.

So true, you know? While you are in that class you think, my God, I can't stand this teacher, such a hard@$$!! But years or so down the road you think back and realize it only made you better because of it.

I once was telling a friend about while growing up, in elementary school, we had these "spelling bees" in the class. We all stood up against the closets and were each given a word. One by one we would spell our own word and if we got it wrong, we had to sit out. I won a lot of those and I always loved the game but my friend pointed out to me this:

So you had to stand against closets, for an indefinite period of time and spell your vocabulary list? Yes...

Why didn't you spell it wrong on purpose just so you could sit down?

Funny... that didn't cross my mind at nine years old.

ASLGAL · 05-17-2009, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

ASLGAL - Thanks. This acceptance of misspellings spelling and misuse was at what grade level? *curious*

Elementary level but continued through secondary.

Quote:

I'd call what you describe as the "lazy educator method.".

agreed.

Quote:

I used to have a 7th and 11th grade Honors English teacher who used to say things to us like "Sloppy writing is indicative of a sloppy mind" and "If you can't write something worth reading, don't bother writing it at all." Funny how I can still hear their voices after 20+ years.

My 7th grade teacher also used to mark an "A" paper as an "F" if we didn't cross every "t" or dot every "i." I couldn't stand her back then, but when I look back, I'm thankful she was as hard on me as she was because she taught me how to be a good writer. She taught me about the importance of proper grammar and punctuation. Thanks to what I learned in her class, I received a writing award the following year as well as a college scholarship in 11th grade.

I had great teachers like that too. I loved them. They were specific about what was expected and acceptable and didn't change and did not allow administrators to dictate what was proper.

Of course, I do get a little lazy on here from time to time. Type too fast, use slang, common errors from not paying attention

I sure would be in trouble if our teachers were checking the forums.

**deafskeptic** · 05-17-2009, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hear Again

I grew up in the 70s, so I was taught how to read phonetically. Spelling has never been a problem for me.

In fact, I represented my school in 7th grade at the district level spelling bee.

However, as my hearing continued to deteriorate, spelling became more difficult due to my inability to hear clearly. Even now that I have CIs, there are still words that I misspell, so dictionary.com is my favorite source to check my mistakes. I also have spell check enabled in my e-mail program as well as Firefox.

Now watch...There will be a word misspelled in this post that I didn't catch.

I didn't see any spelling mistakes but then this is coming from someone who is famous for misspelling.

Hear Again · 05-17-2009, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafskeptic

I didn't see any spelling mistakes but then this is coming from someone who is famous for misspelling.

Hear Again · 05-17-2009, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASLGAL

I had great teachers like that too. I loved them. They were specific about what was expected and acceptable and didn't change and did not allow administrators to dictate what was proper.

Of course, I do get a little lazy on here from time to time. Type too fast, use slang, common errors from not paying attention

I sure would be in trouble if our teachers were checking the forums.

I agree on both counts.

Hear Again · 05-17-2009, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carly2k5

So true, you know? While you are in that class you think, my God, I can't stand this teacher, such a hard@$$!! But years or so down the road you think back and realize it only made you better because of it.

I once was telling a friend about while growing up, in elementary school, we had these "spelling bees" in the class. We all stood up against the closets and were each given a word. One by one we would spell our own word and if we got it wrong, we had to sit out. I won a lot of those and I always loved the game but my friend pointed out to me this:

So you had to stand against closets, for an indefinite period of time and spell your vocabulary list? Yes...

Why didn't you spell it wrong on purpose just so you could sit down?

Funny... that didn't cross my mind at nine years old.

As far as vocabulary lists are concerned, we had to study 75 words/week in my 11th and 12th grade Honors English class. I was the only one who actually enjoyed memorizing them. I love learning new words and subscribe to several websites that have a "Word of the Day."

Hear Again · 05-17-2009, 01:13 PM

This thread just reminded me of how everyone used to call me "Little Miss Dictionary" in high school.

Mrs Bucket · 05-17-2009, 01:27 PM

LOL!

I was Miss Chatterbox back in the day & loathed that name!

Sure enough, I live up to that name!

Hear Again · 05-17-2009, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mrs Bucket

LOL!

I was Miss Chatterbox back in the day & loathed that name!

Sure enough, I live up to that name!

**Lissa** · 05-17-2009, 01:56 PM

I was and still am known as the walking dictionary, laughs. I used to love doing spelling tests in primary but after a while I got bored. Every week I got every spelling word correctly. Once I even spelt a word wrong on a spelling test because I was quite fed up of getting all the spelling words correct.

Volcanbaru · 05-17-2009, 01:58 PM

So...hearing people can't spell properly when they write too?

I don't really see any differences between writing and signing. Maybe they just got the sign letters wrong or they were trying to finger spell but it failed?

Hear Again · 05-17-2009, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Volcanbaru

So...hearing people can't spell properly when they write too?

I don't really see any differences between writing and signing. Maybe they just got the sign letters wrong or they were trying to finger spell but it failed?

I can see where the problem between signing and writing comes in.

When someone uses ASL (as opposed to writing -- especially where children are concerned), the brain thinks about words visually in terms of how they are signed. This happened to me after I learned Braille. Instead of "seeing" words as they appear in print, I "saw" them written in Grade II Braille.

For example, the word "can" would appear as the letter "C" in my mind.

Hear Again · 05-17-2009, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Volcanbaru

So...hearing people can't spell properly when they write too?

I don't really see any differences between writing and signing. Maybe they just got the sign letters wrong or they were trying to finger spell but it failed?

deafbahagirl said: "I've seen deaf people misspell based on signing. For example, many of my third graders thought the word "wrong" or "mistake" started with the letter "Y." Why? Because it is signed with the "y" handshape."

If what Volcanbaru said were true, these children would have started fingerspelling the word "wrong" or "mistake" with the letters "W" and "M" instead of using the "Y" handshape.

**Bottesini** · 05-17-2009, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Volcanbaru

So...hearing people can't spell properly when they write too?

I don't really see any differences between writing and signing. Maybe they just got the sign letters wrong or they were trying to finger spell but it failed?

Are you talking about post 50?

It has nothing to do with fingerspelling. The sign is a "Y" hand pushed into the chin.

Completely different from the word spelling.

Mrs Bucket · 05-17-2009, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bottesini

The sign is a "Y" hand pushed into the chin.

A bit OT, I apologise.

A cute little boy I used to babysit, he would sign "wrong" by pushing "Y" up and down underneath his chin.

Thought that was so sweet seeing him sign that.

**Bottesini** · 05-17-2009, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mrs Bucket

A bit OT, I apologise.

A cute little boy I used to babysit, he would sign "wrong" by pushing "Y" up and down underneath his chin.

Thought that was so sweet seeing him sign that.

I love little kids and off topic. I think my name sign may get changed as my 2 year old granddaughter now enthusiastically greets me each time by signing "Spider".

Maybe people will think I a very tough and threatening if I am called Spider?

Oceanbreeze · 05-17-2009, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

What do you mean switch back and forth?

I just mean that I was tought both ways, sight reading and by phonics. For me, learning phonics was better. I never grasped the sight reading method.

Oceanbreeze · 05-17-2009, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

Children learn to sight read, by simple interaction and repetition. In the school district in my area, children are also taught the phonemes of the alphabet in kindergarten. Once they reach grade one, sight reading is the primary method used, until early March. Then they are taught consonant sounds first, consonant blends and vowels. They also are taught that some of the words in English do not follow the rules of sound to letter, which really then becomes a memorization technique for the letters in that word.

Yes, I know. I was tought using both methods. But, I prefer phonics. that worked best for me. Others may prefer the sight reading method.

***naisho*** · 05-17-2009, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oceanbreeze

Yes, I know. I was tought using both methods. But, I prefer phonics. t

Hey Oceanbreeze, don't take this as criticism or anything, this is exactly what I was referring to in my initial post. I am an oral deaf, and because I prefer text more to speech, I tend to notice orthographical spelling errors done more frequently in the case of the hearing, I think.

When you said tought, I knew you meant taught right away. I am under the impression that when a hearing/hearing impaired (orally raised deaf) person is writing their words, some think the way it is pronounced. In this form, tought can legally pass as taught in speech form because phonetically, it literally sounds the same (to me at least).

PS. the great Bottesini, I have finally caught an error in your last post

**Bottesini** · 05-17-2009, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naisho

Hey Oceanbreeze, don't take this as criticism or anything, this is exactly what I was referring to in my initial post. I am an oral deaf, and because I prefer text more to speech, I tend to notice orthographical spelling errors done more frequently in the case of the hearing, I think.

When you said tought, I knew you meant taught right away. I am under the impression that when a hearing/hearing impaired (orally raised deaf) person is writing their words, some think the way it is pronounced. In this form, tought can legally pass as taught in speech form because phonetically, it literally sounds the same (to me at least).

PS. the great Bottesini, I have finally caught an error in your last post

Where????!!!!!

***naisho*** · 05-17-2009, 03:27 PM

Since the passing of the initial discussion yesterday I've been looking into psychological explanation of this area of language/phonetics.

The term for this is called "Orthography", which is defined as:
Orthography - a method of representing the sounds of a language by written or printed symbols (princeton WordNet Search - 3.0)

There is a peer reviewed psychological research journal done in 2004 by.. copy and pasting here:

THE QUARTERLY JOURNAL OF EXPERIMENTAL PSYCHOLOGY, 2004, 57A (3), 385–417
Orthographic structure and deaf spelling errors: Syllables, letter frequency, and speech
Andrew C. Olson, University of Birmingham, Birmingham, UK
Alfonso Caramazza, Harvard University, Cambridge, MA, USA

Purpose: to find if spelling mistakes are done due to phonetic errors (orthographic mistakes), if so, the deaf ignore that rule.

-The study used 23 deaf students from Gallaudet with -85 dB hearing loss or higher, the max was 115db, the least 85db.
-19 of them used ASL for communication at home,
-03 participants they had no info on
(doesn't say if they were Deaf or oral/mainstream environment, or late deafened that I'm noticing so far)

-The study used 100 hearing participants from high school grades 10, 11, and 12, aged 15-18 in Lincoln High School, Nebraska.

Results.. I'll leave this blank for now because I don't want to make a wrong impression. Read it for yourself below if you are interested:

I have copied the PDF onto my site, and I thikn it is legally redistributable so if you'd like to read into it (beware, it's long and 34 pages - I'm not even done reading it yet) take a gander here:

2004 research on deaf spelling

I've also attempted to contact Dr. Marshack via email.. who is now at RIT.. Hopefully he can give me some answers when he is not busy too.

Bott, in this sentence!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bottesini

Maybe people will think I a very tough and threatening if I am called Spider?

**Bottesini** · 05-17-2009, 03:34 PM

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I think I left out the word "am", but that does not constitute a spelling error!!! (or my finger did not hit the "m" hard enough)

Bottesini rules!!!!!

***naisho*** · 05-17-2009, 03:43 PM

Check this out, it's in the journal I posted above:

If you notice the difference of errors between deaf and hearing correspondents.. look at the hearing spelling, it is usually done in phonetic/orthographic sense and has questionable ability to pass in speaking, in the deaf, it's phonetically illegal to pass when pronouncing it:

Table1: Examples of Spelling errors made by deaf and hearing sudents:

Target:

Responsible
Deaf: responbile
Hearing: responsable

secret
Deaf: secert
Hearing: Secrete

scissors
D: sicossics
H: Sciccors

medicine
D: medince
H: medican

volunteers
D: volutter
H: volenters

substitute
D: subituse
H: substatute

These spelling mistakes are way out though.. this is really low level english. I wish they had "upper level" words to show examples of.

jillio · 05-17-2009, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naisho

Since the passing of the initial discussion yesterday I've been looking into psychological explanation of this area of language/phonetics.

The term for this is called "Orthography", which is defined as:
Orthography - a method of representing the sounds of a language by written or printed symbols (princeton WordNet Search - 3.0)

There is a peer reviewed psychological research journal done in 2004 by.. copy and pasting here:

THE QUARTERLY JOURNAL OF EXPERIMENTAL PSYCHOLOGY, 2004, 57A (3), 385–417
Orthographic structure and deaf spelling errors: Syllables, letter frequency, and speech
Andrew C. Olson, University of Birmingham, Birmingham, UK
Alfonso Caramazza, Harvard University, Cambridge, MA, USA

Purpose: to find if spelling mistakes are done due to phonetic errors (orthographic mistakes), if so, the deaf ignore that rule.

-The study used 23 deaf students from Gallaudet with -85 dB hearing loss or higher, the max was 115db, the least 85db.
-19 of them used ASL for communication at home,
-03 participants they had no info on
(doesn't say if they were Deaf or oral/mainstream environment, or late deafened that I'm noticing so far)

-The study used 100 hearing participants from high school grades 10, 11, and 12, aged 15-18 in Lincoln High School, Nebraska.

Results.. I'll leave this blank for now because I don't want to make a wrong impression. Read it for yourself below if you are interested:

I have copied the PDF onto my site, and I thikn it is legally redistributable so if you'd like to read into it (beware, it's long and 34 pages - I'm not even done reading it yet) take a gander here:

2004 research on deaf spelling

I've also attempted to contacted Dr. Marshack via email.. who is now at RIT.. Hopefully he can give me some answers when he is not busy too.

Bott, in this sentence!

Good luck on getting a reply from Dr. Marsharck. Most likely, you will get a reply from one of his research assistants referring you to his volumes of published research for an answer.

Hear Again · 05-17-2009, 03:49 PM

naisho,

In each case, it seems like the mistakes made by the deaf and hearing alike in the examples you gave are due to simple typing errors rather than one's ability (or inability) to hear.

05-18-2009, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bottesini

I have pointed out repeatedly that hearing can't spell.

Hey... I represent that remark. Seriously, I think the english language is to blame. I don't think all languages have that problem but I would defer to the experts to answer that one.

**Bottesini** · 05-18-2009, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

Hey... I represent that remark. Seriously, I think the english language is to blame. I don't think all languages have that problem but I would defer to the experts to answer that one.

Sorry, what can I say? " You spell so well I thought you were deaf?"

05-18-2009, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bottesini

Sorry, what can I say? " You spell so well I thought you were deaf?"

I'll take that as a compliment

***naisho*** · 05-18-2009, 04:19 PM

I received a reply from Dr. Marschark today.

He is clueless to the outcome of this as well, when I questioned the definitely-definately example.

Here is a copy of the transcribed email. He notes he had used voice recognition software if there are any errors found in them.

Quote:

Received: via dmail-2007e.18 for +INBOX; Mon, 18 May 2009 13:29:13 -0700 (PDT)
Return-Path: <******.edu>
Received: from mda4.es.uci.edu (mda4.es.uci.edu [128.200.80.7])
by island7.es.uci.edu (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id n4IKTCJq016809
for <******.edu>; Mon, 18 May 2009 13:29:13 -0700
Received: from mta1.service.uci.edu (mta1.service.uci.edu [128.200.1.221])
Mr. ******,

Interesting question. I've spoken to a Professor in the English Department of the National Technical Institute for the Deaf who insists that yes, a surprisingly high number of her students misspells "definitely," but she cannot discern whether it is more common for orally-oriented or sign-oriented students. On the other hand, other Center members agree that any number of people misspell that particular word.

I'm afraid we don't have a clue. The suggestion was to take the empirical approach and ask an equal number of deaf and hearing college students to see if there is a difference in which way it is spelled and then separate deaf students as a function of their communication orientation. But that seems like a lot of work for this kind of question unless it turns out there is a broader issue with regard to spelling. There are any number of common misspellings among deaf students, but I'm not aware of evidence concerning signing versus oral students. I'm going to look into that, and if I find anything I will let you know.

In the meantime, later this week we will be opening our Raising and Educating Deaf Children website (RIT - National Technical Institute for the Deaf - Technical College for Deaf Students), designed to provide people with evidence-based answers to questions concerning deaf learners of all ages. I hope we don't get too many questions like this one!

I hope to be in touch... thanks for the brain exercise!
(removing some of the info to retain privacy purposes)
<Produced with voice recognition software. Apologies for missed errors.>
Dr. Marschark, Ph.D.
Center for Education Research Partnerships
National Technical Institute for the Deaf
52 Lomb Memorial Drive
Rochester, New York 14623 USA

Moray House School of Education School of Psychology
University of Edinburgh University of Aberdeen
Old Moray House Aberdeen AB24 3FX
Holyrood Road United Kingdom
Edinburgh EH8 8AQ

Home pages R us:
Center: RIT | CREF | Center for Education Research Partnerships
National Sign Language Interpreting Project: National Sign Language Interpreting Project - Welcome

My original email:

Quote:

Dear ******,

I apologize for writing without the benefit of an introduction, but am doing so on behalf of a phenomenon that I am starting to notice between deaf culture, a part of what I thought may be related to their cognitive thinking process.
From browsing through the internet in search of resources for the answer, I came across many publications and one that stood out was Psychological perspectives on deafness, and thought that you might have an answer.

Recently I started take action on observing phenomenon of spelling habits, looking for answers to why they were spelled this way. In the English language, one word in particular was always subject to scrutiny whenever I saw it written be it on paper, internet, or chat form. This was the word, "definitely".

I had noticed that in modern pronunciation, the word "definitely" is said as "def-uh-nit-lee", sometimes I noticed that persons of all backgrounds, including doctors and to-be's have mistakenly written it as "definately".

I questioned not why it was written this way, but how come it seems that this error is more common with those that are hearing or raised from an oral environment versus those who are raised purely from deaf culture. My intuition led me to believe that this mistake is related to the way it sounds in the oral environment, versus that of a profoundly deaf/severely deaf person who was taught to spell it without error - how could a person of deaf non-oral background reach for the a instead of i when spelling this particular word?

I understand that this is many of one such request that come across your computer and greatly appreciate any guidance that you can lend in any shape or form.

Much thanks in advance, for your help. I look forward to hearing from you at any convenience you would happen to have.

******

I guess there's no black and white answer for this one, something to put on the to-do list.

05-17-2009, 01:56 PM	#71 (permalink)
Lissa Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 4,298 Blog Entries: 1	I was and still am known as the walking dictionary, laughs. I used to love doing spelling tests in primary but after a while I got bored. Every week I got every spelling word correctly. Once I even spelt a word wrong on a spelling test because I was quite fed up of getting all the spelling words correct. __________________ lissa, 23, profound bilateral sensorineural hearing loss. http://bioniclissa.blogspot.co.uk/

05-17-2009, 03:34 PM	#83 (permalink)
Bottesini Joe's Friend Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: With Owl Sock Posts: 37,642 Blog Entries: 1	^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I think I left out the word "am", but that does not constitute a spelling error!!! (or my finger did not hit the "m" hard enough) Bottesini rules!!!!! __________________

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05-17-2009, 01:13 PM	#68 (permalink)
Hear Again Registered User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 20,122 Blog Entries: 6	This thread just reminded me of how everyone used to call me "Little Miss Dictionary" in high school.

05-17-2009, 01:27 PM	#69 (permalink)
Mrs Bucket Registered User Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 3,941	LOL! I was Miss Chatterbox back in the day & loathed that name! Sure enough, I live up to that name!

05-17-2009, 01:58 PM	#72 (permalink)
Volcanbaru Registered User Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 35	So...hearing people can't spell properly when they write too? I don't really see any differences between writing and signing. Maybe they just got the sign letters wrong or they were trying to finger spell but it failed?

05-17-2009, 03:43 PM	#84 (permalink)
*naisho* Forum Disorders M.D.,Ph.D Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: 127.0.0.1 Posts: 6,268	Check this out, it's in the journal I posted above: If you notice the difference of errors between deaf and hearing correspondents.. look at the hearing spelling, it is usually done in phonetic/orthographic sense and has questionable ability to pass in speaking, in the deaf, it's phonetically illegal to pass when pronouncing it: Table1: Examples of Spelling errors made by deaf and hearing sudents: Target: Responsible Deaf: responbile Hearing: responsable secret Deaf: secert Hearing: Secrete scissors D: sicossics H: Sciccors medicine D: medince H: medican volunteers D: volutter H: volenters substitute D: subituse H: substatute These spelling mistakes are way out though.. this is really low level english. I wish they had "upper level" words to show examples of.

05-17-2009, 03:49 PM	#86 (permalink)
Hear Again Registered User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 20,122 Blog Entries: 6	naisho, In each case, it seems like the mistakes made by the deaf and hearing alike in the examples you gave are due to simple typing errors rather than one's ability (or inability) to hear.