Oral school - Page 17

**shel90** · 05-03-2009, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

...just wondering how all this effective lip reading took place in a classroom, or how one effectively lip reads another student sitting behind them, a teacher who is speaking while writing on the board.

It is just plain common sense.

**shel90** · 05-03-2009, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

There's more to life than catching every single word that comes out of your teachers' mouths. :shrug:

Not if education is at risk. Sorry, I would rather have full access to everything like my hearing peers do when it comes to education. If they have full access, why cant I? In the real world, I accept that I dont have full access to everything and that is fine but when it comes to education...for me that's very important. Agian, I see what happens to so many children when they fall behind.

**shel90** · 05-03-2009, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Bain, Scott, and Steinberg (2004) state:

Children and adolescents who are deaf often face
challenges in social development that their hearing
peers are spared. The socialization process begins at
a young age with the parents’ communication of values,
expectations, mores, and rules to the child. The child
who has missed information transmitted in family
conversations lacks the foundation of conventional
social skills development. This can lead to future
difficulties throughout the school years and into.
adulthood, particularly if language is not easily
accessible (Meadow-Orlans, 1996).
Barriers to optimal socialization for deaf and hardof-
hearing children are well documented. Deaf children
are more likely than their hearing peers to
experience social deficits.

I dont see the justification in this. I just dont.

loml · 05-03-2009, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirena rossa

Well, personally... being mainstreamed and oral was total success for me. So, of course I advocate it. Unlike Kashveera, i did not attend a deaf school at all. I was brought up orally and mainstreamed. however, my parents would once a year bring me to this deaf school for hearing assessments and they would ask the school if i could enroll and i was actually rejected basically because they knew i was "too advanced" and that if i had enrolled it would actually hold me back. I seemed to do pretty well with my hearing aids and lip-reading plus note-taking.
Soooo... in my own experience, oralism was the way to go.
I do realize that every child is different, its not a one size fits all type of thing. I am thinking that lip reading skills play a big part into it as well.

sirena rossa - Thanks for sharing your experiences.

**shel90** · 05-03-2009, 08:06 AM

Last weekend, I went to PA to get together with my deaf girlfriends. There are 6 of us and two of them are sisters who grew up orally. One of them can sign fluently while the other doesnt sign at all. It was interesting trying to sign and then use spoken English for her cuz she kept getting left out. My best friend, her sister, and I were the only others in the group who have oral skills so we did our best to interpret between her and the 2 others who have no oral skills at all. Was interesting...anyways, we were talking about oralism in deaf education.

The sister whom I will call Christy who knows sign said that she was happy with how she was raised until she started using a terp for the workshops at her job because of the other two who had just got hired 2 years ago. Before, she was the only deaf one and was so used to missing out on information and didnt know any better. Then, the other two got hired at her workplace and needed an terp..then Christy started watching the terp and realized how much she had been missing all this time. She said that she cant go back and has since requested a terp for every meeting even if the other two arent there. Her boss gave her a hard time about it because she had never requested it before and went on and on about how she can "speak" so she must be able to hear all that BS. However Christy's sister whom I will call Donna still doesnt know ASL to this day and in her opinion, she said she was happy being raised orally. Christy was telling her that since she learned how much she she has missed out growing up, she said she cant go back to oral only especially in the educational setting. They got into a debate about it...it was hard for the rest of us to catch anything they said cuz they werent signing but Christy explained to us later what Donna's beliefs were. Christy told us that she has not ever experienced what it is like to understand everything like hearing people do so she has nothing to compare to.

The 3 of us, Christy, my best friend, and I have experienced being oral only growing up and then learning ASL and all 3 of us feel the same ..we all agreed that there is no way we would want to repeat our childhood in an oral-only educational environment. Donna, on the other hand, thinks oralism is the best for all deaf children.

I just thought it was interesting to see.

I used to think like u Daredevel and Sierra Rose..that oral-only was CHAMP up to about 10 years ago. Having equal access to info, language, and communication is unbeatable.

loml · 05-03-2009, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirena rossa

well, no.. im not saying i think oral only is the best way to go for all deaf students. i'm just simply sharing my experience and saying "hey hey i am someone who had an oral only approach and hey! guess what! it worked out well! it IS a possibility!" so, don't knock down the oral only approach cuz with patience, understanding, a lot of time, and good teachers who understand not to face the blackboard while speaking, plus accommodations like note taking, etc. it IS indeed possible to be successful when raised oral only. Like i said before, i do know its not a one size fits all. everyone is different.

and yeah, i am not exaggerating, my parents were strongly advised that i do not attend a deaf school - by professors of the school itself! - cause they felt that they would've actually delayed me. since i was already doing so well in mainstream.

sirena rossa - I cannot judge your personal experiences, as I am not you. One important component in all of this discussion is that you are feeling successful where you are.

jillio · 05-03-2009, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lighthouse77

(we don't read lips, we only played the guessing game all day long)

Yep.

jillio · 05-03-2009, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flip

I do second guess, but very little about "what if I went to a deaf school", or "what if I was mainstreamed" or "what if I had a CI". My impression is that oral deaf people are more second guessing on their deafness, and more unhappy about their deafness compared to native signers. It's perhaps more correct to say second guessing on deafness is a trait of oral deaf people, not all deaf people?

Good point.

jillio · 05-03-2009, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafskeptic

I think many here would dispute that being deaf sucks.

Yes, I found that statement to be a bit disturbing, too, and certainly not related to the point I was making in any way,shape, or form.

**shel90** · 05-03-2009, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafskeptic

I think many here would dispute that being deaf sucks.

Being deaf sucked for me until I learned ASL. Now, it is not an issue. I used to avoid non-signing environments like the plague cuz of my anxiety issues but thanks to my neighbor across the street, I am a lot better about it and more agressive with hearing non signers.

jillio · 05-03-2009, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

Jillio was quoting an article stating all the "bad things" that a deaf person experiences. So that was my response to Jillio. Everyone has bad moments due to something they have (or in our case, don't have).

I was stating the realities of the psycho-social difficulties that have been documented again and again and again over the years. I did not place a value judgement on it. "Bad" is a value judgement you have chosen, not me.

jillio · 05-03-2009, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

I dont see the justification in this. I just dont.

Nor do I. Nor do I understand why, despite the evidence, it continues to be ignored.

**shel90** · 05-03-2009, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

Jillio was quoting an article stating all the "bad things" that a deaf person experiences. So that was my response to Jillio. Everyone has bad moments due to something they have (or in our case, don't have).

A majority of deaf native signers have never experienced those "bad" things. My brother was puzzled to why I used to feel anxiety in a non-signing environment and has admitted to me that he has no idea what it feels like to be put in a classroom not understanding anything. He said that he doesnt know how I did it all of my life.I told him that I didnt know any different...that was the only thing I knew and gotten used to.

jillio · 05-03-2009, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Being deaf sucked for me until I learned ASL. Now, it is not an issue. I used to avoid non-signing environments like the plague cuz of my anxiety issues but thanks to my neighbor across the street, I am a lot better about it and more agressive with hearing non signers.

Well, it has been my experience that those who are more limited in communication opportunities (i.e. oral only) have more resentment towards their deafness because they perceive it as creating more problems in their life. The reality, however, is that it is not the deafness that is totally responsible for the problems they experience, but the restricted communication. Your expeience, as well as untold numbers of others, supports that.

jillio · 05-03-2009, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Last weekend, I went to PA to get together with my deaf girlfriends. There are 6 of us and two of them are sisters who grew up orally. One of them can sign fluently while the other doesnt sign at all. It was interesting trying to sign and then use spoken English for her cuz she kept getting left out. My best friend, her sister, and I were the only others in the group who have oral skills so we did our best to interpret between her and the 2 others who have no oral skills at all. Was interesting...anyways, we were talking about oralism in deaf education.

The sister whom I will call Christy who knows sign said that she was happy with how she was raised until she started using a terp for the workshops at her job because of the other two who had just got hired 2 years ago. Before, she was the only deaf one and was so used to missing out on information and didnt know any better. Then, the other two got hired at her workplace and needed an terp..then Christy started watching the terp and realized how much she had been missing all this time. She said that she cant go back and has since requested a terp for every meeting even if the other two arent there. Her boss gave her a hard time about it because she had never requested it before and went on and on about how she can "speak" so she must be able to hear all that BS. However Christy's sister whom I will call Donna still doesnt know ASL to this day and in her opinion, she said she was happy being raised orally. Christy was telling her that since she learned how much she she has missed out growing up, she said she cant go back to oral only especially in the educational setting. They got into a debate about it...it was hard for the rest of us to catch anything they said cuz they werent signing but Christy explained to us later what Donna's beliefs were. Christy told us that she has not ever experienced what it is like to understand everything like hearing people do so she has nothing to compare to.

The 3 of us, Christy, my best friend, and I have experienced being oral only growing up and then learning ASL and all 3 of us feel the same ..we all agreed that there is no way we would want to repeat our childhood in an oral-only educational environment. Donna, on the other hand, thinks oralism is the best for all deaf children.

I just thought it was interesting to see.

I used to think like u Daredevel and Sierra Rose..that oral-only was CHAMP up to about 10 years ago. Having equal access to info, language, and communication is unbeatable.

Anyone else see the common thread here?

ASLGAL · 05-03-2009, 08:41 AM

Quote:

so, don't knock down the oral only approach cuz

I think the key problem is one word/philosophy associated with Oral and that is "ONLY"

Why do audists insist communication is an "only" ??

Sorry, my comment is late, I see I missed a whole page at least....

jillio · 05-03-2009, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

sirena rossa - I cannot judge your personal experiences, as I am not you. One important component in all of this discussion is that you are feeling successful where you are.

Isn't it odd how those who are orally oriented continue to use words like "judge" and to place value judgements? It would appear that for them, it is not a matter of what is more beneficial, but what is considered to be "good" or "bad."

jillio · 05-03-2009, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASLGAL

I think the key problem is one word/philosophy associated with Oral and that is "ONLY"

Why do audists insist communication is an "only" ??

Exactly. It is the dichotomy that is so objectionable.

**shel90** · 05-03-2009, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Anyone else see the common thread here?

U know what's so funny about Donna? Her husband is deaf and doesnt know sign. They have two deaf boys ages 5 and 7 and they both used to go to an oral-only school until a few years ago. She pulled them out cuz of the pressures she got from the adminstrators, audiologists and other parents to implant them. Now, they are in a TC program but her sons are fluent in both languages..ASL and spoken English and use them separately. I find that soooo amazing! Her boys kept watching us 5 girls who used sign with fascination. I told Donna I wanted to take them home!

**shel90** · 05-03-2009, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASLGAL

I think the key problem is one word/philosophy associated with Oral and that is "ONLY"

Why do audists insist communication is an "only" ??

Sorry, my comment is late, I see I missed a whole page at least....

I agree...
I have no issues with oralism...just when it is advocated as the only way to in which the children are forbidden to be exposed to ASL. That is my big issue.

jillio · 05-03-2009, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

U know what's so funny about Donna? Her husband is deaf and doesnt know sign. They have two deaf boys ages 5 and 7 and they both used to go to an oral-only school until a few years ago. She pulled them out cuz of the pressures she got from the adminstrators, audiologists and other parents to implant them. Now, they are in a TC program but her sons are fluent in both languages..ASL and spoken English and use them separately. I find that soooo amazing! Her boys kept watching us 5 girls who used sign with fascination. I told Donna I wanted to take them home!

Agreed. Its amazing how they flourish.

**Daredevel7** · 05-03-2009, 11:10 AM

It's funny. It seems like oral deaf kids shouldn't post here about their experiences because it's somehow twisted to "All deaf kids should do oralism" or "oralism is the best":

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

I used to think like u Daredevel and Sierra Rose..that oral-only was CHAMP up to about 10 years ago. Having equal access to info, language, and communication is unbeatable.

or some assume if we post here, we must be unhappy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lighthouse77

if you are happy being oralism, then you shouldn't be here (deaf forum), you should be happy with your hearing peers.

mm... yea

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Isn't it odd how those who are orally oriented continue to use words like "judge" and to place value judgements? It would appear that for them, it is not a matter of what is more beneficial, but what is considered to be "good" or "bad."

Yea talk about judging:.... see the bolded below.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

The sister whom I will call Christy who knows sign said that she was happy with how she was raised until she started using a terp for the workshops at her job because of the other two who had just got hired 2 years ago. Before, she was the only deaf one and was so used to missing out on information and didnt know any better.

Isn't that a bit narcisstic?

Seems like there's plenty of judging on oral deaf kids. We aren't even promoting oral-only, only sharing experiences. But I guess you guys want to keep our mouths shut....? Any reason why?

Lately, I've been hanging out with more deaf people and I see a lot of narcissism in the deaf community (both in real life and on AD). People feel very strongly about how a deaf one is raised. I understand people have their own thoughts on which method is better and they can't help it. However, what disturbs me greatly is not so much their opinions, but rather that their opinions actually affect their behavior towards someone. I find this wrong, especially in the deaf community. In reality, there really aren't that many deaf people. We don't need this "The Great Divide" crap.

**shel90** · 05-03-2009, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

It's funny. It seems like oral deaf kids shouldn't post here about their experiences because it's somehow twisted to "All deaf kids should do oralism" or "oralism is the best":

or some assume if we post here, we must be unhappy.

mm... yea

Yea talk about judging:.... see the bolded below.

Isn't that a bit narcisstic?

Seems like there's plenty of judging on oral deaf kids. We aren't even promoting oral-only, only sharing experiences. But I guess you guys want to keep our mouths shut....? Any reason why?

Lately, I've been hanging out with more deaf people and I see a lot of narcissism in the deaf community (both in real life and on AD). People feel very strongly about how a deaf one is raised. I understand people have their own thoughts on which method is better and they can't help it. However, what disturbs me greatly is not so much their opinions, but rather that their opinions actually affect their behavior towards someone. I find this wrong, especially in the deaf community. In reality, there really aren't that many deaf people. We don't need this "The Great Divide" crap.

My friend was talking about her own experiences and how she didnt know any better because she never had the experience of having equal access to information as her coworkers. She didnt say anything about u or any other oral deaf people. No judgement on oral deaf kids but the practices in the educational system that allows putting deaf children in environments where they dont have equal access like their hearing counterparts.

I dont promote the "Great Divide"..I am talking about deaf children's rights to full access to education and language. I dont know about others but pls do not apply that on me. Thanks.

Lighthouse77 · 05-03-2009, 01:22 PM

I just don't see the reason why they hang out with people who are deaf message board? is it because of loneliness Sorry it make you mad, but you know, just trying to point out that you are no difference from us.

If you are successful that's great, but then all hearing parents want their kids to be just as successful and they will look at successful deaf oral people and say "My kid can do it too" (my parents was one of them). And just to say, "not all deaf kid should or could do it" just make us feel dumb. You have to admit that you did need some visual aids for the sake of other kids. Just remember just about all deaf kids can speak and read lips.. just that they do not deserve signing being withheld from them.

**shel90** · 05-03-2009, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lighthouse77

I just don't see the reason why they hang out with people who are deaf message board? Is it because they are lonely? That's what I am getting at. Sorry it make you mad, but you know, just trying to point out that you are no difference from us.

If you are successful that's great, but then all hearing parents want their kids to be just as successful and they will look at successful deaf oral people and say "My kid can do that too). And just to say, "not all deaf kid should or could do it" just make us feel dumb. You have to admit that you did need some visual aids for the sake of other kids. Just remember just about all deaf kids can speak and read lips.. just that they do not deserve signing being withheld from them because some deaf can handle that.

I get that impression from a lot of the hearing people ...like because I can speak clearly, why cant my brother? It is really unfair to do that.

**Bottesini** · 05-03-2009, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lighthouse77

if you are happy being oralism, then you shouldn't be here (deaf forum), you should be happy with your hearing peers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lighthouse77

I just don't see the reason why they hang out with people who are deaf message board? is it because of loneliness Sorry it make you mad, but you know, just trying to point out that you are no difference from us.

If you are successful that's great, but then all hearing parents want their kids to be just as successful and they will look at successful deaf oral people and say "My kid can do it too" (my parents was one of them). And just to say, "not all deaf kid should or could do it" just make us feel dumb. You have to admit that you did need some visual aids for the sake of other kids. Just remember just about all deaf kids can speak and read lips.. just that they do not deserve signing being withheld from them.

It doesn't seem like your first statement means they are no different.
It is truly just a nasty divisive statement.
I am both, and I like to spend my time with AllDeaf, which means all, HOH, oral, or signing, any type.

Lighthouse77 · 05-03-2009, 02:29 PM

I know I don't speak for anyone here except for myself. I really don't understand the attitude that you have to be oralist to be advanced. Or you are advanced because you use oral approach. That's what it appears to me anyway (is there such thing as advanced school for the deaf?) But the reality is that you also had to depend on notetaking, textbooks, and other accomdation just like all other deaf people except some deaf perfer signing over lipreading so they don't miss out so they can learn.

If I truly depend on my oralism and lipreading all day for my social life, I would not come here at all. Deafness would be out of the picture. I wouldn't even bother socializing deaf people (which I don't because I can't understand them anyway, I understand hearing people alot better than deaf people). But truly our deafness does affect our social life which is why we come here for support. You hardly ever see a hearing person come here for support because they can't relate to us or our communication difficulties. Only those who are supportive of us come here.

**Bottesini** · 05-03-2009, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lighthouse77

I know I don't speak for anyone here except for myself. I really don't understand the attitude that you have to be oralist to be advanced. Or you are advanced because you use oral approach. That's what it appears to me anyway (is there such thing as advanced school for the deaf?) But then the reality is that you also had to depend on notetaking, textbooks, and other accomdation.

If I truly depend on my oralism and lipreading all day for my social life, I would not come here at all. Deafness would be out of the picture. I wouldn't even bother socializing deaf people (which I don't because I can't understand them anyway, I understand hearing people alot better than deaf people). But truly our deafness does affect our social life which is why we come here for support. You hardly ever see a hearing person come here for support because they can't relate to us or our communication difficulties. Only those who are supportive of us do come here.

Now I am truly confused. You tell oralists they should not be here, but you say you don't socialize deaf, and you can't understand deaf people. But you are coming here.

What makes you any different than the oralists you say should not be here?

Lighthouse77 · 05-03-2009, 02:36 PM

no, I mean I acknowledge the difficulties of living without visual aids rather it is notetaking, signing, body language, etc.

I just have a little pet peeve of those who think they have a perfect life in oralism.

faire_jour · 05-03-2009, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lighthouse77

no, I mean I acknowledge the difficulties of living without visual aids rather it is notetaking, signing, body language, etc.

I just have a little pet peeve of those who think they have a perfect life in oralism.

They never said that ASL, or ANYTHING should be taken away from people. They said that they were fine with their lives and you got all pissy with them and said they shouldn't be here.

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05-03-2009, 08:06 AM	#485 (permalink)
shel90 Audist are not welcome Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: A place where crabs are popular Posts: 40,493 Blog Entries: 3	Last weekend, I went to PA to get together with my deaf girlfriends. There are 6 of us and two of them are sisters who grew up orally. One of them can sign fluently while the other doesnt sign at all. It was interesting trying to sign and then use spoken English for her cuz she kept getting left out. My best friend, her sister, and I were the only others in the group who have oral skills so we did our best to interpret between her and the 2 others who have no oral skills at all. Was interesting...anyways, we were talking about oralism in deaf education. The sister whom I will call Christy who knows sign said that she was happy with how she was raised until she started using a terp for the workshops at her job because of the other two who had just got hired 2 years ago. Before, she was the only deaf one and was so used to missing out on information and didnt know any better. Then, the other two got hired at her workplace and needed an terp..then Christy started watching the terp and realized how much she had been missing all this time. She said that she cant go back and has since requested a terp for every meeting even if the other two arent there. Her boss gave her a hard time about it because she had never requested it before and went on and on about how she can "speak" so she must be able to hear all that BS. However Christy's sister whom I will call Donna still doesnt know ASL to this day and in her opinion, she said she was happy being raised orally. Christy was telling her that since she learned how much she she has missed out growing up, she said she cant go back to oral only especially in the educational setting. They got into a debate about it...it was hard for the rest of us to catch anything they said cuz they werent signing but Christy explained to us later what Donna's beliefs were. Christy told us that she has not ever experienced what it is like to understand everything like hearing people do so she has nothing to compare to. The 3 of us, Christy, my best friend, and I have experienced being oral only growing up and then learning ASL and all 3 of us feel the same ..we all agreed that there is no way we would want to repeat our childhood in an oral-only educational environment. Donna, on the other hand, thinks oralism is the best for all deaf children. I just thought it was interesting to see. I used to think like u Daredevel and Sierra Rose..that oral-only was CHAMP up to about 10 years ago. Having equal access to info, language, and communication is unbeatable. __________________ "Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it." --- Anonymous

05-03-2009, 01:22 PM	#504 (permalink)
Lighthouse77 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 4,167	I just don't see the reason why they hang out with people who are deaf message board? is it because of loneliness Sorry it make you mad, but you know, just trying to point out that you are no difference from us. If you are successful that's great, but then all hearing parents want their kids to be just as successful and they will look at successful deaf oral people and say "My kid can do it too" (my parents was one of them). And just to say, "not all deaf kid should or could do it" just make us feel dumb. You have to admit that you did need some visual aids for the sake of other kids. Just remember just about all deaf kids can speak and read lips.. just that they do not deserve signing being withheld from them. __________________ Good thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from.

05-03-2009, 02:29 PM	#507 (permalink)
Lighthouse77 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 4,167	I know I don't speak for anyone here except for myself. I really don't understand the attitude that you have to be oralist to be advanced. Or you are advanced because you use oral approach. That's what it appears to me anyway (is there such thing as advanced school for the deaf?) But the reality is that you also had to depend on notetaking, textbooks, and other accomdation just like all other deaf people except some deaf perfer signing over lipreading so they don't miss out so they can learn. If I truly depend on my oralism and lipreading all day for my social life, I would not come here at all. Deafness would be out of the picture. I wouldn't even bother socializing deaf people (which I don't because I can't understand them anyway, I understand hearing people alot better than deaf people). But truly our deafness does affect our social life which is why we come here for support. You hardly ever see a hearing person come here for support because they can't relate to us or our communication difficulties. Only those who are supportive of us come here. __________________ Good thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from.

05-03-2009, 02:36 PM	#509 (permalink)
Lighthouse77 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 4,167	no, I mean I acknowledge the difficulties of living without visual aids rather it is notetaking, signing, body language, etc. I just have a little pet peeve of those who think they have a perfect life in oralism. __________________ Good thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from.

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