Some thoughts? - Page 7

faire_jour · 02-15-2009, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

what Berry meant is that what do you hope to get from here since you feel you're not welcomed in here. Are you looking to get some information or are you advocating something?

Looking for a place to waste time. I also find the hearing aid and cochlear implant forum very useful.

**Jiro** · 02-15-2009, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

How about the website she wrote in her words?

Heather Whitestone-McCallum

"My mother was a schoolteacher so we did a lot of homework. She chose acoupedic approach, which meant I had to use what hearing I had and to rely on auditory stimulation. I visited a private speech therapist twice a week. It took me six years to say my last name correctly. I did not learn sign language until I was in 11th grade. I was mainstreamed in public hearing school until 4th grade and then I attended Central Institute for the Deaf, which was an oral school located in St. Louis, Missouri. When I was 14 years old, I went back to public high school and graduated with 3.6 GPA without having a sign language interpreter. "

I can probably tell you that despite of her success.... her childhood hardship is most likely the same as ours. Why subject deaf kids thru this kind of hardship when "normal kids" don't? Why such stress and hardship to get deaf kids to be on same playing field as normal kids thru normal ways?

That's what we're trying to tell you. By going thru deaf approach, this eliminates unnecessary stress and hardships. They CAN be on same playing field as normal kids and they CAN perform/outperform them and they CAN participate in hearing world.

**Jiro** · 02-15-2009, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

Looking for a place to waste time. I also find the hearing aid and cochlear implant forum very useful.

oh ok

faire_jour · 02-15-2009, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

I can probably tell you that despite of her success.... her childhood hardship is most likely the same as ours. Why subject deaf kids thru this kind of hardship when "normal kids" don't? Why such stress and hardship to get deaf kids to be on same playing field as normal kids thru normal ways?

That's what we're trying to tell you. By going thru deaf approach, this eliminates unnecessary stress and hardships. They CAN be on same playing field as normal kids and they CAN perform/outperform them and they CAN participate in hearing world.

I never said you should.

***naisho*** · 02-15-2009, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

Looking for a place to waste time. I also find the hearing aid and cochlear implant forum very useful.

In that case.. getting your share of time spent with it ending up in fits of conniption isn't a good way to either, except you would prefer to gain that extra strand of white hair or something.

Unless you state in the original topic, "Greetings, I don't want so and so to reply to this topic, but the rest of you, what do you think about _____?" you will get replies from anybody willing to share their two cents just as much as you do to freely use their time for sharing their opinions and comments.

When you are on the internet, this is pretty much what it is. There is no respect, etiquette, or rules you must follow outside of general forum guidelines and such.
This forum is already fairly respectful in the aspect of giving opinions, if you have not seen worse.

I'm sorry to convey it in this manner, but that is just what it is.
Humans live in a society where we exist to correct, or prove something to others.

jillio · 02-15-2009, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naisho

In that case.. getting your share of time spent with it ending up in fits of conniption isn't a good way to either, except you would prefer to gain that extra strand of white hair or something.

Unless you state in the original topic, "Greetings, I don't want so and so to reply to this topic, but the rest of you, what do you think about _____?" you will get replies from anybody willing to share their two cents just as much as you do to freely use their time for sharing their opinions and comments.

When you are on the internet, this is pretty much what it is. There is no respect, etiquette, or rules you must follow outside of general forum guidelines and such.
This forum is already fairly respectful in the aspect of giving opinions, if you have not seen worse.

I'm sorry to convey it in this manner, but that is just what it is.
Humans live in a society where we exist to correct, or prove something to others.

When I was the parent of a young deaf child, I didn't have time to waste. I was busy communicating with him about his thoughts, his feelings, and his understanding of the world around him. ASL made that possible.

dreama · 02-15-2009, 06:02 PM

Fair Jour: So its 1980 Verses 1990?

When I was at the PHU one of the deaf kids had a CI. Or at least that's what I remember? Now do you think I'm making it up or was it some sort of experimental implant?

It's not being close minded to react like this when people say sign language impeeds speech. It's because a lot of people hear have personal experiences that go against this research. The reasearch also isn't logical.

I'm sorry if you think I'm just siding with Jilli but nothing could be further then the truth. After all this is the only issue that I actually agree with her on.

jillio · 02-15-2009, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreama

Fair Jour: So its 1980 Verses 1990?

When I was at the PHU one of the deaf kids had a CI. Or at least that's what I remember? Now do you think I'm making it up or was it some sort of experimental implant?

It's not being close minded to react like this when people say sign language impeeds speech. It's because a lot of people hear have personal experiences that go against this research. The reasearch also isn't logical.

I'm sorry if you think I'm just siding with Jilli but nothing could be further then the truth. After all this is the only issue that I actually agree with her on.

That it is, dreama!

**Jolie77** · 02-15-2009, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

Looking for a place to waste time. I also find the hearing aid and cochlear implant forum very useful.

I'm just curious here -

Why do you want to find a place to waste time, especially when you can try to make it useful?

deafdyke · 02-15-2009, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Speech intelligiblity is one part of spoken language development

Exactly. It is ONE part of spoken language development.
How well a person pronounces something isn't nessarily key to how well they have mastered language. I STILL mispronounce words, and still have a "deaf voice" and can be hard to understand at times.
Also, rick thank you for pointing out that Ann Geers authored the paper.
Ann Geers is an oral expert, so of course she would be biased. Oralism is her bread and butter. That would be akin to a monolingal English speaker looking at kids who are newly arrived Pureto Rican or otherwise "limited English prociefenct" and saying that they are "better" at English, then kids who can speak English somewhat but with a really thick Spanish accent b/c they can say some words in English well.

Quote:

is that oral langauge as one's primary language can have both positive and negative impacts upon the lives of deaf people. Just like other approaches.

The approach is neither "wrong" and certainly not "oxymoronic" but the claims by those who dismiss it outright and refuse to admit that for some it has proved to be beneficial is indeed moronic.

Define primary language. First language (eg Sign learned a bit later?) or more used in a monolingal approach as with oral only?
Rick, what you don't understand is that we're not against oral only per se.
Some kids aren't into Sign. We're just against it as an automatic kneejerk " Oh Sign is special needs, and only kids who aren't very good at oral only need it" attitude. We think that dhh kids need a full toolbox approach.

faire_jour · 02-15-2009, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafdyke

Exactly. It is ONE part of spoken language development.
How well a person pronounces something isn't nessarily key to how well they have mastered language. I STILL mispronounce words, and still have a "deaf voice" and can be hard to understand at times.
Also, rick thank you for pointing out that Ann Geers authored the paper.
Ann Geers is an oral expert, so of course she would be biased. Oralism is her bread and butter. That would be akin to a monolingal English speaker looking at kids who are newly arrived Pureto Rican or otherwise "limited English prociefenct" and saying that they are "better" at English, then kids who can speak English somewhat but with a really thick Spanish accent b/c they can say some words in English well.

Define primary language. First language (eg Sign learned a bit later?) or more used in a monolingal approach as with oral only?
Rick, what you don't understand is that we're not against oral only per se.
Some kids aren't into Sign. We're just against it as an automatic kneejerk " Oh Sign is special needs, and only kids who aren't very good at oral only need it" attitude. We think that dhh kids need a full toolbox approach.

I disagree with this statement.

deafdyke · 02-15-2009, 06:20 PM

Quote:

It took me six years to say my last name correctly

That is incredibily sad. That is exactly why I am against oral only. It assumes that it will give the dhh kid perfect speech. It gives them a good tool, yes....but it doesn't give complete equality.

**Jiro** · 02-15-2009, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

I never said you should.

but that's your justification for your approach for your child. From the link you gave me about heather whitestone -

Quote:

What do you feel boosted your self-esteem most growing up as a deaf child?
Through ballet I was fortunate to find a place to escape, a refuge from my feelings of being an outsider. The dance studio was the one place I felt accepted and "just like everybody else" was in the dance studio. Hoping to improve the rhythm of my speech, my mother had enrolled me in a ballet class when I was five years old. The ballet class boosted my self-esteem.

As I became a teenager, I began to participate in the sport of orienteering - a popular competition that involves being dropped off in unfamiliar woods with nothing but a map and a compass. Orienteering enabled me to increase my self-esteem, and I found that I also loved the thrill of competition. Competing on an equal footing with hearing people assured me that my mind and heart were no different from theirs, and when I won the state orienteering championship, my self-confidence increased by leaps and bounds. I’m sure that God used this competition to help me on the journey toward my dream because by the time I began to compete in pageants, I was already familiar with intense competitive experiences.

but.... no social interaction? That's rather lonely to complete with people where there is no communication/teamwork involved. Notice that she participated in sports where there's no teamwork. that's lonely.

Quote:

Did you have friends who had normal hearing as well as friends who had hearing loss growing up?
I had only hearing friends most of my childhood because I was the only deaf child in the public schools. However, by the time I became a teenager, I had several oral deaf friends. It was healthy for me to have both deaf and hearing friends.

I see... but did she REALLY have a good time? Remember AliciaM? She was the only deaf cheerleader in her team and she was backstabbed by her own teammates because they didn't want to deal with her communication difficulty.

Quote:

In the past was lip-reading your primary source of communication when others were talking?
Lip reading has been a primary source of communication for me, but I also listened with the help of my hearing aid. If I only read lips I would not get very much information. When I was a little girl, I was discouraged from relying upon lip reading. My mother, my teachers and my speech therapist would all cover their lips in order to challenge me to develop my residual hearing in my left ear.

Now, I am pleased to tell you that I read lips less often with the help of cochlear implant and hearing aid together. I don’t get too tired anymore after I have a long conversation.

why subject a deaf child to this kind of enormous stress and difficulty just to practice on hearing?

Quote:

Did you find lip reading stressful?
I find lip reading very stressful and frustrating because I am often confused. For example, if you look at person’s lips saying dog and saw, they look the same. With my hearing aid alone, I do not hear "s" or "d" sounds. So usually I have to use my common sense. For example, if someone said, "The dog is running across the street." Then I knew it was not the saw who ran across the street – it was the dog. Most hearing people do not understand that people in my position have to think incredibly fast in order to keep up with conversations. One-on-one conversations are not that stressful, but group conversations when coupled with background noise are nearly impossible. Lip reading is a grueling and exhausting mental exercise and lip readers are constantly thinking and trying to discern what is actually being said. I get real mad at those who think that I am stupid simply because I cannot hear. The truth is I get exhausted after a while and simply cannot keep up. At that point, I begin to guess at what is being said and eventually give up and choose to be quiet.

so she chose to be a "mute" rather than to participate as much as she wants to. She would be able to do this in ASL environment.

faire_jour · 02-15-2009, 06:36 PM

I agree. That sucks. That is why my child uses ASL.

rick48 · 02-15-2009, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Still getting information from second hand sources rather than from the deaf individual themselves. Not very valid or reliable.

Actually, getting information directly from a parent about the communication method she used for her child is firsthand information.

The mere fact that a person relates their life story does not make that experience valid or reliable. For all we know the person relating the experience could be a raving lunatic. The additional fact that the story is being told over the internet also detracts from the validity or reliability of the story as well. For instance, by your own words, honorary title notwithstanding, everything you relate about the deaf is secondhand and thus, according to you: "Not very valid or reliable".

Parents seeking information for their deaf children can get it from very many sources and ultimately it is thankfully left to them, and not you, to determine what sources of information are valid and relaible and what are not.

Finally, one of the things Heather Whitestone's mom said to us was similar to what we had heard from virtually every deaf adult with an implant and every parent of an older child with an implant: that it was remarkable to see what a difference it was making in childrens' lives and that they wish that it had been around when they or their children were younger.

Perhaps you need to listen when myself, Jackie, Cloggy and others say that the childhood experiences of non-implanted deaf adults who were raised orally are not similar to what our children have and are experiencing.

faire_jour · 02-15-2009, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick48

Actually, getting information directly from a parent about the communication method she used for her child is firsthand information.

The mere fact that a person relates their life story does not make that experience valid or reliable. For all we know the person relating the experience could be a raving lunatic. The additional fact that the story is being told over the internet also detracts from the validity or reliability of the story as well. For instance, by your own words, honorary title notwithstanding, everything you relate about the deaf is secondhand and thus, according to you: "Not very valid or reliable".

Parents seeking information for their deaf children can get it from very many sources and ultimately it is thankfully left to them, and not you, to determine what sources of information are valid and relaible and what are not.

Finally, one of the things Heather Whitestone's mom said to us was similar to what we had heard from virtually every deaf adult with an implant and every parent of an older child with an implant: that it was remarkable to see what a difference it was making in childrens' lives and that they wish that it had been around when they or their children were younger.

Perhaps you need to listen when myself, Jackie, Cloggy and others say that the childhood experiences of non-implanted deaf adults who were raised orally are not similar to what our children have and are experiencing.

I agree with that. You can add me to that list.

**Jiro** · 02-15-2009, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick48

Actually, getting information directly from a parent about the communication method she used for her child is firsthand information.

The mere fact that a person relates their life story does not make that experience valid or reliable. For all we know the person relating the experience could be a raving lunatic. The additional fact that the story is being told over the internet also detracts from the validity or reliability of the story as well. For instance, by your own words, honorary title notwithstanding, everything you relate about the deaf is secondhand and thus, according to you: "Not very valid or reliable".

Parents seeking information for their deaf children can get it from very many sources and ultimately it is thankfully left to them, and not you, to determine what sources of information are valid and relaible and what are not.

Finally, one of the things Heather Whitestone's mom said to us was similar to what we had heard from virtually every deaf adult with an implant and every parent of an older child with an implant: that it was remarkable to see what a difference it was making in childrens' lives and that they wish that it had been around when they or their children were younger.

Perhaps you need to listen when myself, Jackie, Cloggy and others say that the childhood experiences of non-implanted deaf adults who were raised orally are not similar to what our children have and are experiencing.

based on what you said - so you're saying the person of family member with disease is "more expert" than a medical specialist?

faire_jour · 02-15-2009, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

based on what you said - so you're saying the person of family member with disease is "more expert" than a medical specialist?

The medical experts in this case would be audiologists, speech-language pathologists, ENT's, etc., are you saying parents should go them for advice?

**Jiro** · 02-15-2009, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

The medical experts in this case would be audiologists, speech-language pathologists, ENT's, etc., are you saying parents should go them for advice?

mind you - audiologist is not a medical expert. neither is speech-language pathologist. It's just a fancy euphemism to sound like a doctor with medical degree. ENT does not really counsel you on planning and such for your child's education and lesson plan. All they do is perform CI surgery. That's all.

What parents should do is to do their homework and stick with it. 50% of the problem - the experts can help you but the other 50% is your effort as the parent. Handful of parents don't do this. That's the problem within deaf community.

faire_jour · 02-15-2009, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

mind you - audiologist is not a medical expert. neither is speech-language pathologist. It's just a fancy euphemism to sound like a doctor with medical degree. ENT does not really counsel you on planning and such for your child's education and lesson plan. All they do is perform CI surgery. That's all.

What parents should do is to do their homework and stick with it. 50% of the problem - the experts can help you but the other 50% is your effort as the parent. Handful of parents don't do this. That's the problem within deaf community.

What if the parents do their homework and come to a different conclusion than you do? Is that ok?

dreama · 02-15-2009, 06:56 PM

People with personal experience carry more weight with me.

dreama · 02-15-2009, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

What if the parents do their homework and come to a different conclusion than you do? Is that ok?

Not if they are trying to deprive a child of sign language. It's NEVER ok to do that.

faire_jour · 02-15-2009, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

mind you - audiologist is not a medical expert. neither is speech-language pathologist. It's just a fancy euphemism to sound like a doctor with medical degree. ENT does not really counsel you on planning and such for your child's education and lesson plan. All they do is perform CI surgery. That's all.

What parents should do is to do their homework and stick with it. 50% of the problem - the experts can help you but the other 50% is your effort as the parent. Handful of parents don't do this. That's the problem within deaf community.

Also, my daughter's audiologist and SLP both have Ph.D's, so they aren't doctors but they are well educated.

**Jiro** · 02-15-2009, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

What if the parents do their homework and come to a different conclusion than you do? Is that ok?

sure! why not? This is not a dictatorship. You are entirely free to do whatever you want to your own child. But you are here in AD, discussing that you beg to differ. Other than that.... it's your own child and you're free to do what you think is the best for your child.

Shel and Jillio are just stating the flaws from your conclusion & reasoning and they used their conclusions & reasoning that are backed by research and results (with substantial source).

**Jiro** · 02-15-2009, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreama

People with personal experience carry more weight with me.

for me - people with personal experience + substantial background carry the biggest weight with me.

**Jiro** · 02-15-2009, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

Also, my daughter's audiologist and SLP both have Ph.D's, so they aren't doctors but they are well educated.

there you go. they're not medical experts.

faire_jour · 02-15-2009, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

sure! why not? This is not a dictatorship. You are entirely free to do whatever you want to your own child. But you are here in AD, discussing that you beg to differ. Other than that.... it's your own child and you're free to do what you think is the best for your child.

Shel and Jillio are just stating the flaws from your conclusion & reasoning and they used their conclusions & reasoning that are backed by research and results (with substantial source).

They are others that don't feel that way. (see dreama's post) Their way is the only right way, and that bothers me.

**Jiro** · 02-15-2009, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

They are others that don't feel that way. (see dreama's post) Their way is the only right way, and that bothers me.

you can always leave

not that it's the ONLY right way but it's an overwhelmingly right path to go down to.

faire_jour · 02-15-2009, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

you can always leave

not that it's the ONLY right way but it's an overwhelmingly right path to go down to.

I think black and white thinking does more harm than good. There is no such thing as always right.

**Jiro** · 02-15-2009, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

I think black and white thinking does more harm than good. There is no such thing as always right.

that's correct and I agree but there is "more" right... meaning it's backed by majority/results/research/etc. Again - that "more right" isn't the answer for all either but it's "more right" because the majority benefits from it.

I hope my post wasn't confusing

02-15-2009, 06:02 PM	#187 (permalink)
dreama Registered User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: England Posts: 3,017	Fair Jour: So its 1980 Verses 1990? When I was at the PHU one of the deaf kids had a CI. Or at least that's what I remember? Now do you think I'm making it up or was it some sort of experimental implant? It's not being close minded to react like this when people say sign language impeeds speech. It's because a lot of people hear have personal experiences that go against this research. The reasearch also isn't logical. I'm sorry if you think I'm just siding with Jilli but nothing could be further then the truth. After all this is the only issue that I actually agree with her on. __________________ I speak for those who cannot speak for themselves. http://www.fightfoca.com/

02-15-2009, 06:56 PM	#201 (permalink)
dreama Registered User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: England Posts: 3,017	People with personal experience carry more weight with me. __________________ I speak for those who cannot speak for themselves. http://www.fightfoca.com/

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02-15-2009, 06:36 PM	#194 (permalink)
faire_jour Banned Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 7,199	I agree. That sucks. That is why my child uses ASL.