Is it ever ok for kids NOT to use ASL? - Page 9

**Jiro** · 02-10-2009, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Oh gosh, that reminds me of a time when I was with a group of oral deaf/hoh kids when working as an aide...everyone, including myself, kept asking each other to repeat each other constantly and conversations were always so jilted because one person looked away and missed something and vice versa....it doesn't allow for free flowing conversations like a group of deaf signers or hearing people have. I felt so bad for these kids cuz living life constantly having to ask others to repeat or having to repeat oneslef if others cudnt understand one's speech can get very frustrating and tiresome. That's why I limit my social outings with hearing people..I prefer one on one situations than group situations...I wud choose a signing environment right off the bat!

exactly. there is no reason that HOH should not learn ASL. One question - do you consider HOH as hearing?

**shel90** · 02-10-2009, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

exactly. there is no reason that HOH should not learn ASL. One question - do you consider HOH as hearing?

No..I consider them as having some degree of hearing

I can hear with my hearing aids on...can tell the difference between a man and awoman's voice, kinds of music, when a plane of flying nearby, dogs barking, babies crying, and so on and so on but it would be dangerous to call me hearing because it gives people the idea I can hear as well as I could speak which leads to extreme misunderstandings and frustrations usually with the blame placed on me for not trying hard enough..

I just say that I am deaf and keep it that way. I don't need to tell people that iam deaf but can hear with HAs like I used to cuz it just seems to further complicate things and usually ends up more trouble than its worth.

Howver, if a hoh adult wants to call themselves hearing, I have no problem with that cuz it is not my life...

However, when it comes to children who haven't learned the skills to cope with the confusion that comes with calling oneself being able to hear, I prefer to say that they r deaf or hoh..never "hearing".

Mrs Bucket · 02-10-2009, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

plus.... Deaf people are able to communicate with NO difficulty among each other. I guarantee you that a group of HOH people will be saying "say again? what? I don't understand." frequently. and that, my friend, is an EPIC FAIL!

Thank you thank you thank you my dear friend!

You see I posted the example to try to explain that sometimes we really need to analyze our needs first before we ask others to analyze their needs.

Growing up, I have always been told by hearing peers to accomodate myself to be able to fit in and to adjust myself to understand others.

Of course, I had to learn to lipread, had to have excellent english comprehension when sometimes my hearing peers struggled with "hear/here" "cheap/sheep" when it came to spelling. That always baffled me because if they could hear the syntax then they could differentiate between the difference.

As I lost my vision slowly, I learned tactile and Tadoma to accommodate myself again with the sighted community.

I come to this thread and I see a hearing parent with a deaf child that has been implanted and asking about whether ASL should be offered as an option. I cannot help but recollect what I went through the experiences.

It is tragic that a parent questions the importance of ASL when their infant's voice box has yet to develop. Now take the CI implanted child in a mainstreaming situation, this is where ASL works so well.

Byrdie714 · 02-10-2009, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mrs Bucket

Thank you thank you thank you my dear friend!

You see I posted the example to try to explain that sometimes we really need to analyze our needs first before we ask others to analyze their needs.

Growing up, I have always been told by hearing peers to accomodate myself to be able to fit in and to adjust myself to understand others.

Of course, I had to learn to lipread, had to have excellent english comprehension when sometimes my hearing peers struggled with "hear/here" "cheap/sheep" when it came to spelling. That always baffled me because if they could hear the syntax then they could differentiate between the difference.

As I lost my vision slowly, I learned tactile and Tadoma to accommodate myself again with the sighted community.

I come to this thread and I see a hearing parent with a deaf child that has been implanted and asking about whether ASL should be offered as an option. I cannot help but recollect what I went through the experiences.

It is tragic that a parent questions the importance of ASL when their infant's voice box has yet to develop. Now take the CI implanted child in a mainstreaming situation, this is where ASL works so well.

Well said Mrs. Bucket!

**Daredevel7** · 02-10-2009, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

plus.... Deaf people are able to communicate with NO difficulty among each other. I guarantee you that a group of HOH people will be saying "say again? what? I don't understand." frequently. and that, my friend, is an EPIC FAIL!

Seems like I am alone in the sense that I prefer REAL communication with over 90% of the population interrupted with several "what"'s over fluid REAL communication with less than 1% of the population. When I say REAL communication, I don't mean necessary conversation "Where is the bathroom" nor talking online. I can't even imagine having most of my conversations being written down on a piece of paper. I guess I view it as a tradeoff. I sacrifice some misunderstandings and "whaaa?" so I can really interact with more people.

By the way, I am talking about as an adult in normal conversation. Obviously, 100% understanding is more important in school settings/education. Just saying my personal opinion of what I prefer in terms of talking to people in ASL and spoken English.

**Jiro** · 02-10-2009, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

Seems like I am alone in the sense that I prefer REAL communication with over 90% of the population interrupted with several "what"'s over fluid REAL communication with less than 1% of the population. When I say REAL communication, I don't mean necessary conversation "Where is the bathroom" nor talking online. I can't even imagine having most of my conversations being written down on a piece of paper. I guess I view it as a tradeoff. I sacrifice some misunderstandings and "whaaa?" so I can really interact with more people.

By the way, I am talking about as an adult in normal conversation. Obviously, 100% understanding is more important in school settings/education. Just saying my personal opinion of what I prefer in terms of talking to people in ASL and spoken English.

and I share same. I'm currently trying to find ASL classes just to get started.

**Daredevel7** · 02-10-2009, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

and I share same. I'm currently trying to find ASL classes just to get started.

Oh yea? I already started a month ago. A friend hooked me up with a free class. Picking up on it pretty easily! I already went to a deaf social to practice some ASL. It's actually VERY interesting from a oral deaf person's perspective. Had a blast! I already got some criticisms for getting the CI, but I find it more amusing than anything else.

Btw... the older the native ASL users are, the more they rock. Just take my word on this!

netrox · 02-10-2009, 01:28 PM

"Is there ever a situation in which it is ok for a child with a hearing loss NOT to be given ASL? A mild hearing loss? Post lingually deafened? Is it ever ok?"

Sure. Just look at deaf children who used cued English while growing up. SEE works just fine as well. Anything that allows the deaf to understand concepts is fine with me.

**Jiro** · 02-10-2009, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by netrox

"Is there ever a situation in which it is ok for a child with a hearing loss NOT to be given ASL? A mild hearing loss? Post lingually deafened? Is it ever ok?"

Sure. Just look at deaf children who used cued English while growing up. SEE works just fine as well. Anything that allows the deaf to understand concepts is fine with me.

VISUALLY.... that's the whole point. Any form of sign language (ASL, SEE, cued, etc.) is a MUST for deaf/HOH/CI as first language. Not oral.

faire_jour · 02-10-2009, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

So Faire_jour, are you saying it's okay for the kids to not use ASL ONLY if they can hear well enough (CI or HoH with significant amp)?

Everyone else, are you confident that teaching EVERY single deaf AND HoH ASL will only benefit them? Is your answer the same if ASL is the first language? I already know Shel90 and Jillio's answers...

I would say that it is possible for children who hear very very well to be perfectly successful without the use of a visual language. That children with great hearing, and speech discrimination do not need ASL as their primary language.

**Bottesini** · 02-10-2009, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

I would say that it is possible for children who hear very very well to be perfectly successful without the use of a visual language. That children with great hearing, and speech discrimination do not need ASL as their primary language.

I think everyone would agree with that. But that does not include the deaf/hoh population.

jillio · 02-10-2009, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

I would say that it is possible for children who hear very very well to be perfectly successful without the use of a visual language. That children with great hearing, and speech discrimination do not need ASL as their primary language.

Children with great hearing and speech discrimination are not deaf nor hoh. They are hearing.

jillio · 02-10-2009, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bottesini

I think everyone would agree with that. But that does not include the deaf/hoh population.

Should have read your response before I replied, Bott!

**Bottesini** · 02-10-2009, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Children with great hearing and speech discrimination are not deaf nor hoh. They are hearing.

Hey, I just said that!

jillio · 02-10-2009, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bottesini

Hey, I just said that!

I'm gonna have to start checking in with you before I post!

**Bottesini** · 02-10-2009, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

I'm gonna have to start checking in with you before I post!

I guess it bears repeating anyway!

**Daredevel7** · 02-10-2009, 07:22 PM

What about making ASL the PRIMARY language of every single HoH/deaf person? Is this recommended also?

**shel90** · 02-10-2009, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Children with great hearing and speech discrimination are not deaf nor hoh. They are hearing.

Many hearing children's first language is ASL and it never hurted them!

**Daredevel7** · 02-10-2009, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Many hearing children's first language is ASL and it never hurted them!

I don't quite think learning ASL then English is quite the same for hearing kids and deaf kids....

jillio · 02-10-2009, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Many hearing children's first language is ASL and it never hurted them!

Exactly. There are any number of very successful CODAS out there.

**shel90** · 02-10-2009, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

I don't quite think learning ASL then English is quite the same for hearing kids and deaf kids....

It was sarcasm.

faire_jour · 02-10-2009, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Children with great hearing and speech discrimination are not deaf nor hoh. They are hearing.

Not always true. There are kids out there with mild losses or CI's who can get 100% on random word speech discrimination tests and hear into the 10-15 db ranges.

deafdyke · 02-10-2009, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Everyone else, are you confident that teaching EVERY single deaf AND HoH ASL will only benefit them? Is your answer the same if ASL is the first language?

Well I think that for early intervention or on an enrichement baisis ASL should be introduced to kids who are hoh as an option to see if it might significently benifit them or if they like it.
I know a little girl who is hoh (same syndrome as I have) who started out with ASL, and even went to a Deaf School.. She recently dropped the Sign b/c she decided she didn't need it any more.
Nothing wrong with that. I know of a handful of kids who started out with both, and who decided they didn't want to Sign any more.
The beef that I have with oral as the kneejerk option, is that it assumes that oral is always the best option or b/c the kid is good orally, they don't "need" sign.

jillio · 02-10-2009, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

Not always true. There are kids out there with mild losses or CI's who can get 100% on random word speech discrimination tests and hear into the 10-15 db ranges.

You are kidding yourself. Ever listen to a recording of what one misses with a mild loss? There are online simulations of such. I suggest you listen to one. You would be amazed at how much is missed with even a mild loss.

faire_jour · 02-10-2009, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

You are kidding yourself. Ever listen to a recording of what one misses with a mild loss? There are online simulations of such. I suggest you listen to one. You would be amazed at how much is missed with even a mild loss.

Do you disagree that it is possible or so you say that a mild loss still makes learning spoken language impossibe?

chris' mom · 02-10-2009, 08:54 PM

With Chris signs as taught him to be oral. He's not perfect at it and there is still a lot even as a mother I dont' understand orally. But buy using ASL first he has picked up alot of oral words. Here is how I taught him. I show him the flashcard, the picture (or object) do the sing and then say the word. It's a small step process. He masters the sign before trying to maste the verbal. Seems to work with us. It help him pick up new signs because when he starts off with the verbal you can't make out what he is trying to say without the sign. My personal opinion is what the parents thinks it's best for the children. I have been told by too many to count people to not use ASL on him. I didn't follow the advise and I feel that my sons L1 will be ASL and L2 Verble..

jillio · 02-10-2009, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

Do you disagree that it is possible or so you say that a mild loss still makes learning spoken language impossibe?

I am saying that even a mild loss interferes with the ability to access information auditorily. If you are happy wiith 90% access ( and that is a very generous estimation) in a classroom, then I guess that is your choice. I personally, would not be satisfied with that.

BTW, you did not answer my question.

faire_jour · 02-10-2009, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

I am saying that even a mild loss interferes with the ability to access information auditorily. If you are happy wiith 90% access ( and that is a very generous estimation) in a classroom, then I guess that is your choice. I personally, would not be satisfied with that.

BTW, you did not answer my question.

I have heard them, but it has been a long time.
So, how is ASL 100% accessable as well? If a child looks down to write...missed part of the conversation. If more than one person signs at the same time, in different locations....missed part. If you read something from a book....missed part. Heaven forbid you sneeze or yawn and close your eyes for a second.

Yes, I know I'm being facetious but really, is there a such thing as 100% on anything?

jillio · 02-10-2009, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

I have heard them, but it has been a long time.
So, how is ASL 100% accessable as well? If a child looks down to write...missed part of the conversation. If more than one person signs at the same time, in different locations....missed part. If you read something from a book....missed part. Heaven forbid you sneeze or yawn and close your eyes for a second.

Yes, I know I'm being facetious but really, is there a such thing as 100% on anything?

Yes, there is 100% access. With 100% access, the opportunity is there. Everyone, even hearing children, will get distracted for a minute and miss something. You can count on them getting about 95% of what is presented. The point is, they have the opportunity to get 100%. If a child has only a 90% opportunity to access information, and then you reduce that by subtracting what they will miss through distraction, then you have signnificantly reduced even more what they will be able to access. Give them the opportunity for 100% access.

**shel90** · 02-10-2009, 09:21 PM

It never ceases to amaze me that people think it is ok to accept limited access to language, communication, and information for deaf children but for hearing children, there would be an uproar and outrage.

Duh...why does the Deaf community feel strongly about this? It is about equality. Yet, the Deaf community is criticized for it.

Hello....

02-10-2009, 08:54 PM	#266 (permalink)
chris' mom Registered User Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Fayetteville, AR Posts: 975	With Chris signs as taught him to be oral. He's not perfect at it and there is still a lot even as a mother I dont' understand orally. But buy using ASL first he has picked up alot of oral words. Here is how I taught him. I show him the flashcard, the picture (or object) do the sing and then say the word. It's a small step process. He masters the sign before trying to maste the verbal. Seems to work with us. It help him pick up new signs because when he starts off with the verbal you can't make out what he is trying to say without the sign. My personal opinion is what the parents thinks it's best for the children. I have been told by too many to count people to not use ASL on him. I didn't follow the advise and I feel that my sons L1 will be ASL and L2 Verble.. __________________ Lori & Sons Children are a gift from the Lord, indeed, they are a blessing.

02-10-2009, 09:21 PM	#270 (permalink)
shel90 Audist are not welcome Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: A place where crabs are popular Posts: 40,473 Blog Entries: 3	It never ceases to amaze me that people think it is ok to accept limited access to language, communication, and information for deaf children but for hearing children, there would be an uproar and outrage. Duh...why does the Deaf community feel strongly about this? It is about equality. Yet, the Deaf community is criticized for it. Hello.... __________________ "Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it." --- Anonymous

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02-10-2009, 01:28 PM	#248 (permalink)
netrox Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 4,780	"Is there ever a situation in which it is ok for a child with a hearing loss NOT to be given ASL? A mild hearing loss? Post lingually deafened? Is it ever ok?" Sure. Just look at deaf children who used cued English while growing up. SEE works just fine as well. Anything that allows the deaf to understand concepts is fine with me.

02-10-2009, 07:22 PM	#257 (permalink)
Daredevel7 Adrenaline Junky Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 4,341	What about making ASL the PRIMARY language of every single HoH/deaf person? Is this recommended also?