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Unread 02-14-2009, 11:06 AM   #601 (permalink)
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The school ends. There needs to be a critical mass of students for a high school. They do not and never have had, and never will have the amount of students, and staff needed to teach all the core areas in high school. They also partial mainstream starting in 7th grade. Again, you make assumptions about the services in my area which you know nothing about.
It is still 10 years away, and you cannot predict what will be available 10 years from now. At the very minimum, 7 years away. A decision made prior to that is still a "choose to" not a "have to."
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Unread 02-14-2009, 11:07 AM   #602 (permalink)
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It is still 10 years away, and you cannot predict what will be available 10 years from now. At the very minimum, 7 years away. A decision made prior to that is still a "choose to" not a "have to."
Yes. I simply said that I will "have to". I didn't say when.

And critical mass is above 50, I believe. Our school has less than 8 per class, regardless of grade. Where are we going to get 42 more deaf kids per grade?
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Unread 02-14-2009, 11:09 AM   #603 (permalink)
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So? ASL is as accessable to them as English, AND it was their first language, why do they choose to drop it?
I've never known a CODA to drop it. They are bi-lingual, and use the language that is appropriate to the communication setting. Just as a bi-lingual deaf individual does.
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Unread 02-14-2009, 11:10 AM   #604 (permalink)
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Tell me what to search for.
How about citations?
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Unread 02-14-2009, 11:10 AM   #605 (permalink)
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I've never known a CODA to drop it. They are bi-lingual, and use the language that is appropriate to the communication setting. Just as a bi-lingual deaf individual does.
As their L1?
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Unread 02-14-2009, 11:12 AM   #606 (permalink)
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How about citations?
I search this forum for the word "citations" and I will find all the research you are talking about?
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Unread 02-14-2009, 11:13 AM   #607 (permalink)
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Yes. I simply said that I will "have to". I didn't say when.

And critical mass is above 50, I believe. Our school has less than 8 per class, regardless of grade. Where are we going to get 42 more deaf kids per grade?
With the move toward biingual education, you may very well ger hearing kids enrolled in the bilingual program. That is the epitome of a bilingual environment.

And it doesn't take critical mass to keep the services going at high school level. We are talking about a school that accommodates.
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Unread 02-14-2009, 11:14 AM   #608 (permalink)
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As their L1?
Uh, yeah. L1 does not refer to primary use at any given time. It is a matter of acquisition.
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Unread 02-14-2009, 11:14 AM   #609 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by faire_jour View Post

Because he wants to communicate in the way that he prefers. Why do many CODA's end up using English as their L1?

.
Many reasons, one of which is it is simply easier because there are far more hearing than Deaf, and unless you live in the same place all your life and maintain the same friends Deaf culture is easy to lose track of. (This is from experience)

Turning the question on its head: Why do so many hearing people feel more comfortable using ASL than English? Why does ASL feel more natural to me than speaking even though my skills have gone bye bye?

On the other hand a CODA using English as primary is not the same as refusing to sign or being ashamed of it.

I don't think a child would take this attitude unless someone somewhere had abused the child into believing using ASL was disgraceful -- And I would seek out the source of the problem.
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Unread 02-14-2009, 11:14 AM   #610 (permalink)
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With the move toward biingual education, you may very well ger hearing kids enrolled in the bilingual program. That is the epitome of a bilingual environment.

And it doesn't take critical mass to keep the services going at high school level. We are talking about a school that accommodates.
Our state law does not allow hearing kids at the Deaf school above preschool level.
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Unread 02-14-2009, 11:14 AM   #611 (permalink)
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I search this forum for the word "citations" and I will find all the research you are talking about?
I don't know whether you will or not, but one thing is for sure: you will never find it by asking irrelevent questions instead of looking for it.
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Unread 02-14-2009, 11:17 AM   #612 (permalink)
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Many reasons, one of which is it is simply easier because there are far more hearing than Deaf, and unless you live in the same place all your life and maintain the same friends Deaf culture is easy to lose track of. (This is from experience)

Turning the question on its head: Why do so many hearing people feel more comfortable using ASL than English? Why does ASL feel more natural to me than speaking even though my skills have gone bye bye?

On the other hand a CODA using English as primary is not the same as refusing to sign or being ashamed of it.

I don't think a child would take this attitude unless someone somewhere had abused the child into believing using ASL was disgraceful -- And I would seek out the source of the problem.
I disagree because I know the child very well. He choose the language in which he has more free communication, the language with which he can interact with more people, and with which he gets more fluent language and communication with his hearing family. In his hime English is richer and more free flowing than ASL because his parents are not fluent ASL users (yet).
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Unread 02-14-2009, 11:18 AM   #613 (permalink)
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Uh, yeah. L1 does not refer to primary use at any given time. It is a matter of acquisition.
L1 speaks to fluency of use, not just time of acqusition.
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Unread 02-14-2009, 11:20 AM   #614 (permalink)
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I don't know whether you will or not, but one thing is for sure: you will never find it by asking irrelevent questions instead of looking for it.
You said that if I wanted to find the research that I could search the forum for it. Now that I am asking for more specifics and are accusing me of asking "irrelevent questions". This is a genuine request for information. You are the one who originally posted the information, therefore you would be the one who would know how I can access it.
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Unread 02-14-2009, 11:21 AM   #615 (permalink)
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L1 speaks to fluency of use, not just time of acqusition.
No, dear, it doesn't. Check your linguistics info.

But fluency has nothing to do with primary use, and that is what you referred to. One can be fluent in a language that is not the language of primary use.
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Unread 02-14-2009, 11:23 AM   #616 (permalink)
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You said that if I wanted to find the research that I could search the forum for it. Now that I am asking for more specifics and are accusing me of asking "irrelevent questions". This is a genuine request for information. You are the one who originally posted the information, therefore you would be the one who would know how I can access it.
And I told you how to find it. You are stalling in looking for it. You could simply scroll back in this thread and find at least 3 citations for research I have cited here.
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Unread 02-14-2009, 11:25 AM   #617 (permalink)
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Synopsis: Faire Jour posed the question.

Everyone but Daredevel said no.

Faire Jour said "is so."

Everyone else said "is not."

Faire Jour cursed one person and got banned. Got unbanned and is back at it.

Maybe soon 1000.
That CRACKS me up!!! Making me feel like a fire-starter!

Honestly, the truth is there is NO way to measure "happiness" or "success" of a person, so all we can do is to measure the language development/literacy rates, and statistically, ASL is the winner. Because communication has ties with the social and other aspects in one's life, there is an assumption that if you have great communication and language development, you will do fine in the real world. This is the EXACT same type of assumption as if you can speak, you will do fine in the real world. I see using ASL not as "the right thing to do" but rather a "trade off". Same thing as using oralism.

Psst.... *whispers* there is no right way to raise a child...
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Unread 02-14-2009, 11:26 AM   #618 (permalink)
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And I told you how to find it. You are stalling in looking for it. You could simply scroll back in this thread and find at least 3 citations for research I have cited here.
I am NOT stalling, you are! I am asking for 1 keyword to begin my search with.
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Unread 02-14-2009, 11:27 AM   #619 (permalink)
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That CRACKS me up!!! Making me feel like a fire-starter!

Honestly, the truth is there is NO way to measure "happiness" or "success" of a person, so all we can do is to measure the language development/literacy rates, and statistically, ASL is the winner. Because communication has ties with the social and other aspects in one's life, there is an assumption that if you have great communication and language development, you will do fine in the real world. This is the EXACT same type of assumption as if you can speak, you will do fine in the real world. I see using ASL not as "the right thing to do" but rather a "trade off". Same thing as using oralism.

Psst.... *whispers* there is no right way to raise a child...
There are ways to measure "happiness" and "success". It is done all the time. One only has to operationally define it. It can then be measured with various instruments based on that operational definition.
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Unread 02-14-2009, 11:28 AM   #620 (permalink)
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I am NOT stalling, you are! I am asking for 1 keyword to begin my search with.
I gave it to you. Post #604. I also instructed you to scroll back in this thread.
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Unread 02-14-2009, 11:36 AM   #621 (permalink)
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No, dear, it doesn't. Check your linguistics info.

But fluency has nothing to do with primary use, and that is what you referred to. One can be fluent in a language that is not the language of primary use.
I believe the term I was refering to is language attrition. When a minority language user loses their L1 to the majority language. That is what I meant for CODA's and for some deaf kids who drop ASL.
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Unread 02-14-2009, 11:43 AM   #622 (permalink)
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Above the state of New York's average which is above the national average. BTW we are one of the top feeder schools for the Ivy League.
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Per cent of students exceeding NY State Standardized English requirements for the 07-08 academic year:

My district 92% State average 79%

For Math:

My district 96% State average 70%

and yes our Special Ed students are included in those figures.
Link?
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Unread 02-14-2009, 11:44 AM   #623 (permalink)
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I believe the term I was refering to is language attrition. When a minority language user loses their L1 to the majority language. That is what I meant for CODA's and for some deaf kids who drop ASL.
Again, you are talking about primary use. And attrition refers to vocab only. It is not lost, it simply goes into long term memory, and can be retrieved.

And L1 refers to the language that is acquired, and the foundation on which learning an L2, L3, etc. is based. It has nothing to do with vocab, but of the fundamental principles of language that are internalized during the acquisition period.
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Unread 02-14-2009, 11:52 AM   #624 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by faire_jour View Post

I believe the term I was refering to is language attrition. When a minority language user loses their L1 to the majority language. That is what I meant for CODA's and for some deaf kids who drop ASL

.
I go for language attrition. That is how I would describe what happened to me. In my case both Spanish and ASL are C languages. I find it frustrating that I can't express in them as I can English and I really want to.

Yet I can express things in ASL easily that I find extremely difficult in English.
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Unread 02-14-2009, 02:36 PM   #625 (permalink)
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We know that she started learning ASL when she went to college.
Why do you persist in posting lies about my child?

I have told you several times that, at my suggestion, she took several ASL classes and although she can use ASL and has many deaf friends, she uses spoken English almost exclusively with them and with others.
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Unread 02-14-2009, 02:38 PM   #626 (permalink)
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Why do you persist in posting lies about my child?

I have told you several times that, at my suggestion, she took several ASL classes and although she can use ASL and has many deaf friends, she uses spoken English almost exclusively with them and with others.
Then, I didn't tell a lie. She began learning ASL after she went to college. You just confirmed it.
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Unread 02-14-2009, 02:40 PM   #627 (permalink)
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Unread 02-14-2009, 02:40 PM   #628 (permalink)
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Link?
Try greatschools.org or newsday.com.
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Unread 02-14-2009, 02:41 PM   #629 (permalink)
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Then, I didn't tell a lie. She began learning ASL after she went to college. You just confirmed it.
He didn't say she took the classes in college at all.
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Unread 02-14-2009, 02:42 PM   #630 (permalink)
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He didn't say she took the classes in college at all.
Nor did I faire_jour, nor did I. You both need to stop trying to insert words where there are none.
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