Is it ever ok for kids NOT to use ASL? - Page 14

jillio · 02-11-2009, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

Exactly! The parents want their children to be suceessful in life. They just measure it in a different way than you do. They disagree with the way to get them the things we all want children to have.

And it should be measured from the perspective of the deaf, since that is who and what the child is. Not from the perspective of the hearing.

**Daredevel7** · 02-11-2009, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

but this is between you and your daughter. what about your daughter and other people? (such as strangers).

again - a controlled variable (teacher) in a controlled environment (classroom). Your daughter would not be carrying around FM system to give to stranger in real world, isn't she?

It's hard to understand but things change a LOT when your daughter gets older and the limitation will become very noticeable especially in teen year.

But...... can a native ASL child even talk to a "stranger in a real world"? If she gets lost, can she even say her own name? If a deaf 4 year old child can speak her own name...... I would think she'd do better than a native ASL child who just signs.

faire_jour · 02-11-2009, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

but this is between you and your daughter. what about your daughter and other people? (such as strangers).

again - a controlled variable (teacher) in a controlled environment (classroom). Your daughter would not be carrying around FM system to give to stranger in real world, isn't she? Would your daughter be able to understand any random conversation from stranger without knowing the context of the conversation? I cannot understand any conversation if I do not know the context of it.

It's hard to understand but things change a LOT when your daughter gets older and the limitation will become very noticeable especially in teen year.

The fm is designed for classroom use so that the kids don't miss out.

Yes, I believe that in the next three years she will be able to carry on a conversation with a stranger and understand everything that was said, especially if it is one on one.

And yes, in the teen years I expect that she will be using an interpreter.

**Jiro** · 02-11-2009, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

But...... can a native ASL child even talk to a "stranger in a real world"? If she gets lost, can she even say her own name? If a deaf 4 year old child can speak her own name...... I would think she'd do better than a native ASL child who just signs.

Well we're specifically talking about an ASL child who can talk. A 100% deaf child isn't going to be able to communicate with hearing anyway. Pen + Paper will have to.

**shel90** · 02-11-2009, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

I have never once considered putting my child in a mainstream class, so I have not investigated what they would do. I really am not the one to ask, also, she's in kindy, not a lot of in-depth debate going on.

The younger ages, nope there is not a lot of in-depth debates or discussions in the classroom.That starts to happen around 3rd grade when the children are entering the pychological stages for critical thinking skills...that's when so many children in that age range get referred to the Deaf schools...

I am talking about in general..I should have stated that instead of referring to your child. Sorry for the confusion.

**shel90** · 02-11-2009, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

But...... can a native ASL child even talk to a "stranger in a real world"? If she gets lost, can she even say her own name? If a deaf 4 year old child can speak her own name...... I would think she'd do better than a native ASL child who just signs.

remember, most, if not all, are proposing giving every child both.

Nobody here has advocated for ASL only without any opportunities for oral language develoment.

Besides, I know so many deaf people who have no oral skills who have learned skills to interact with heairng people just fine.

jillio · 02-11-2009, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

But...... can a native ASL child even talk to a "stranger in a real world"? If she gets lost, can she even say her own name? If a deaf 4 year old child can speak her own name...... I would think she'd do better than a native ASL child who just signs.

Native ASL users don't "just sign". You are assuming that because a child is a native ASL user, they can't use spoken language at all. My son is a native ASL user. He can and does, use speech when necessary, and has since he was a child. At the age of 4, he could state not just his name, but my name, our telephone number, and our address just in case it was ever necessary for him to do so. You are buying into those old stereotypes and myths perpetrated by the oralists.

**Daredevel7** · 02-11-2009, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Sure there are a few that do learn ASL or have the reasons that u stated but almost all of my friends' parents look down on ASL as the language for lower functioning people.

I have this deaf friend who went to a residental school and college for the deaf. Although he does speak, he primarily signs. I practice my ASL with him. I asked him if he does PSE or ASL since he does talk while signing. He said that he does do mostly PSE but does ASL if he talks to "low functioning" people. I was... shocked..... TOTALLY did not expect that... I guess some Deaf people think this also???

**Jiro** · 02-11-2009, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

The fm is designed for classroom use so that the kids don't miss out.

Yes, I believe that in the next three years she will be able to carry on a conversation with a stranger and understand everything that was said, especially if it is one on one.

I see... one on one? what about group setting? party setting? in car at night? noisy hallway? I'm assuming your daughter's hanging out with mostly hearing groups.

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

And yes, in the teen years I expect that she will be using an interpreter.

cool

faire_jour · 02-11-2009, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

Well we're specifically talking about an ASL child who can talk. A 100% deaf child isn't going to be able to communicate with hearing anyway. Pen + Paper will have to.

I contend that a child who is an ASL school and home enviroment will not become a fluent spoken language user. If they don't have practice and exposure it just won't happen.

**shel90** · 02-11-2009, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

The fm is designed for classroom use so that the kids don't miss out.

Yes, I believe that in the next three years she will be able to carry on a conversation with a stranger and understand everything that was said, especially if it is one on one.

And yes, in the teen years I expect that she will be using an interpreter.

That's good..

thought we were talking about those who never learned ASL and misses out a lot of what is being said in the classroom. Those are the ones along with the children with language delays, I see getting referred to our program...

jillio · 02-11-2009, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

The fm is designed for classroom use so that the kids don't miss out.
Yes, I believe that in the next three years she will be able to carry on a conversation with a stranger and understand everything that was said, especially if it is one on one.

And yes, in the teen years I expect that she will be using an interpreter.

Did the audiologist and some hearing teacher tell you that?

**shel90** · 02-11-2009, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

I contend that a child who is an ASL school and home enviroment will not become a fluent spoken language user. If they don't have practice and exposure it just won't happen.

I know many deaf ASL users who grew up going to deaf schools or some from deaf families who are fluent spoken language users...they dont have CIs..imagine that!

jillio · 02-11-2009, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

I contend that a child who is an ASL school and home enviroment will not become a fluent spoken language user. If they don't have practice and exposure it just won't happen.

And the research says otherwise.

faire_jour · 02-11-2009, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

I see... one on one? what about group setting? party setting? in car at night? noisy hallway? I'm assuming your daughter's hanging out with mostly hearing groups.

cool

And no, I don't assume she will be hanging out with mostly hearing kids. She is Deaf. Right now all her friends are Deaf as well.

**Jiro** · 02-11-2009, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

I contend that a child who is an ASL school and home enviroment will not become a fluent spoken language user. If they don't have practice and exposure it just won't happen.

I see. Just for clarification purpose. What is your daughter's primary language to be? oral or ASL?

**shel90** · 02-11-2009, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

I have this deaf friend who went to a residental school and college for the deaf. Although he does speak, he primarily signs. I practice my ASL with him. I asked him if he does PSE or ASL since he does talk while signing. He said that he does do mostly PSE but does ASL if he talks to "low functioning" people. I was... shocked..... TOTALLY did not expect that... I guess some Deaf people think this also???

Growing up, I believed that ASL was for low functioning deaf people...

I wonder where he got the idea from.

**Daredevel7** · 02-11-2009, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Native ASL users don't "just sign". You are assuming that because a child is a native ASL user, they can't use spoken language at all. My son is a native ASL user. He can and does, use speech when necessary, and has since he was a child. At the age of 4, he could state not just his name, but my name, our telephone number, and our address just in case it was ever necessary for him to do so. You are buying into those old stereotypes and myths perpetrated by the oralists.

Sometimes stereotypes come from somewhere.....the truth hurts.

Are YOU a typical parent, Jillio? I am guessing not.

Just because it can happen doesnt mean it usually does. Same concept applies for oralism. Sometimes it works, doesnt mean it usually does.

**Jiro** · 02-11-2009, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

And no, I don't assume she will be hanging out with mostly hearing kids. She is Deaf. Right now all her friends are Deaf as well.

interesting. so why such huge amount of emphasis on oralism?

faire_jour · 02-11-2009, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

And the research says otherwise.

Really? There is no research that says that kids with CI's who are in oral classes learn speech quicker and have better word discrimination scores than those in a TC enviroment?

**shel90** · 02-11-2009, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

Sometimes stereotypes come from somewhere.....the truth hurts.

Are YOU a typical parent, Jillio? I am guessing not.

Just because it can happen doesnt mean it usually does. Same concept applies for oralism. Sometimes it works, doesnt mean it usually does.

My brother was in an oral-only environment for the first 5 years of his life....he cant even say his name clearly.

However, I have quite a few deaf friends who are from deaf families who have no problem switching to spoken English when interacting with hearing non-signers...

Like someone else said, it all depends on each child's innate ability to develop oral skills..doesnt matter the degree of hearing loss but the biggest issue for us is the receptive end...especially when it comes to language development and education.

jillio · 02-11-2009, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Growing up, I believed that ASL was for low functioning deaf people...

I wonder where he got the idea from.

I think we all know where that idea comes from.

And we are seeing it repeated right here.

**Daredevel7** · 02-11-2009, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Growing up, I believed that ASL was for low functioning deaf people...

I wonder where he got the idea from.

Yes but you grew up oral. He grew up in a Deaf environment... now you see why I was shocked. I think he meant because since he usually signs PSE, those who know ASL AND written English usually understand him. Those who don't understand him usually don't know written English either, hence the low functioning people. That's why.

faire_jour · 02-11-2009, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

interesting. so why such huge amount of emphasis on oralism?

Because the vast majority of the progress a person will make with their CI will be in the first three years. We are against a clock!

jillio · 02-11-2009, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

Really? There is no research that says that kids with CI's who are in oral classes learn speech quicker and have better word discrimination scores than those in a TC enviroment?

Nope. In fact, the longitudinal research shows that those who do best with their CIs are those that have the advantage of sign along with oral skills development.

**shel90** · 02-11-2009, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

Yes but you grew up oral. He grew up in a Deaf environment... now you see why I was shocked. I think he meant because since he usually signs PSE, those who know ASL AND written English usually understand him. Those who don't understand him usually don't know written English either, hence the low functioning people. That's why.

My brother is a strong ASL user and he is not low functioning..if he was, he wouldnt have gotten accepted to a private college for his MA degree!

faire_jour · 02-11-2009, 09:47 PM

ScienceDirect - International Congress Series : Educational intervention and outcomes of early cochlear implantation

"Principal components analysis was used to create composite factor scores for each outcome. Children who consistently used oral communication exhibited a significant advantage over those who used total communication in all outcomes. Outcomes that were affected by pre-implant and early educational placements included speech perception and oral language. Speech production and reading outcomes were not predicted by educational placement until 2 or more years following cochlear implantation and may reflect cochlear implant benefits. Results indicate that communication mode both affects and reflects outcomes of cochlear implantation"

http://books.google.com/books?id=E0j...um=2&ct=result

**Daredevel7** · 02-11-2009, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

My brother is a strong ASL user and he is not low functioning..if he was, he wouldnt have gotten accepted to a private college for his MA degree!

Ah but he knows English, correct? Wouldn't he understand PSE?

**Jiro** · 02-11-2009, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

Because the vast majority of the progress a person will make with their CI will be in the first three years. We are against a clock!

I see. but as said by many - ASL was their first language and Oral was their 2nd which was acquired later on. Looks like they are doing just fine... and right.

jillio · 02-11-2009, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

Yes but you grew up oral. He grew up in a Deaf environment... now you see why I was shocked. I think he meant because since he usually signs PSE, those who know ASL AND written English usually understand him. Those who don't understand him usually don't know written English either, hence the low functioning people. That's why.

I see why you have reached that conclusion, but your logic is faulty. The reason is more that PSE mimics an auditory syntax and does not make sense visually. The very reason that the MCEs have been an EPIC FAIL.

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02-11-2009, 09:47 PM	#417 (permalink)
faire_jour Banned Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 7,202	ScienceDirect - International Congress Series : Educational intervention and outcomes of early cochlear implantation "Principal components analysis was used to create composite factor scores for each outcome. Children who consistently used oral communication exhibited a significant advantage over those who used total communication in all outcomes. Outcomes that were affected by pre-implant and early educational placements included speech perception and oral language. Speech production and reading outcomes were not predicted by educational placement until 2 or more years following cochlear implantation and may reflect cochlear implant benefits. Results indicate that communication mode both affects and reflects outcomes of cochlear implantation" http://books.google.com/books?id=E0j...um=2&ct=result