Question for all in the oral camp

faire_jour · 07-03-2008, 08:12 PM

Can I just ask,what does it hurt to give a deaf child ASL?

shel90 · 07-03-2008, 08:30 PM

Read this thread...

http://www.alldeaf.com/deaf-news/424...student-2.html

Especially posts #48, #57, #66, #95, and #114..read the whole thread. There are more posts about why the oralist do not want their kids to be exposed to sign language from the start.

jillio · 07-04-2008, 01:23 PM

Good question, faire jour. But I doubt that you will get many replies, because all the reasons that the oralists come up with have already been disproven. To answer would mean that they would have to make their irrational bias blatantly obvious, and they try to keep it hidden under a thin veil of noble rhetoric.

Tousi · 07-04-2008, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

Can I just ask,what does it hurt to give a deaf child ASL?

I don't really want to get into this, either but consider this: It's a big novelty thing now that it's cool to teach HEARING babies ASL but not DEAF babies? makes me laugh....

shel90 · 07-04-2008, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tousi

I don't really want to get into this, either but consider this: It's a big novelty thing now that it's cool to teach HEARING babies ASL but not DEAF babies? makes me laugh....

And if someone takes the signing route with their deaf babies, they are criticized by the professionals in the medical community especially by the CI doctors.

jillio · 07-04-2008, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

And if someone takes the signing route with their deaf babies, they are criticized by the professionals in the medical community especially by the CI doctors.

Could it be that the CI professionals see alternative methods as a threat to their ability to convince parents that CI is necessary for full functioning?

shel90 · 07-04-2008, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Could it be that the CI professionals see alternative methods as a threat to their ability to convince parents that CI is necessary for full functioning?

I cant speak for them. I have a feeling it is from the old myths of ASL interfering with spoken language development, isolating the deaf children, and so forth and their refusal to really open up their minds from a medical view of deafness.

What baffles me is reading experiences from different parents in other forums or articles about the doctors taking on the position as educational consultants!!! Now, that is very unethical of them as they are not trained in the field of Deaf education.

Bottesini · 07-04-2008, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

Can I just ask,what does it hurt to give a deaf child ASL?

Fifty years ago my father did not want me to grow up with the limits of my grandparents. People who attended to deaf school and signed, pretty much socialized only with each other, and had a terrible time communicating at all just for necessary daily functioning.

So I was raised oral environment and mainstreamed. My hearing father knew much more ASL than I.

Now technology has improved immensely. It is not necessary to be oral to communicate.

I am not advocating no ASL. I think it very beneficial, and wish I knew much more than I do.

But when the oral camp started, it did make sense.

jillio · 07-04-2008, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

I cant speak for them. I have a feeling it is from the old myths of ASL interfering with spoken language development, isolating the deaf children, and so forth and their refusal to really open up their minds from a medical view of deafness.

What baffles me is reading experiences from different parents in other forums or articles about the doctors taking on the position as educational consultants!!! Now, that is very unethical of them as they are not trained in the field of Deaf education.

I personally think that the professionals are educated enough to see the huge holes in this outdated philosophy, but hang onto it as a manipulation technique when dealing with hearing parents.

shel90 · 07-04-2008, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bottesini

Fifty years ago my father did not want me to grow up with the limits of my grandparents. People who attended to deaf school and signed, pretty much socialized only with each other, and had a terrible time communicating at all just for necessary daily functioning.

So I was raised oral environment and mainstreamed. My hearing father knew much more ASL than I.

Now technology has improved immensely. It is not necessary to be oral to communicate.

I am not advocating no ASL. I think it very beneficial, and wish I knew much more than I do.

But when the oral camp started, it did make sense.

What's wrong with deaf people wanting to socialize with only each other? We are humans after all. I dont understand the view that deaf people must socialize with hearing people to be able to function. We are all humans regardless of our hearing status.

*note..this is not to criticiz you, just criticizing the oralists' view on that issue*

jillio · 07-04-2008, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bottesini

Fifty years ago my father did not want me to grow up with the limits of my grandparents. People who attended to deaf school and signed, pretty much socialized only with each other, and had a terrible time communicating at all just for necessary daily functioning.

So I was raised oral environment and mainstreamed. My hearing father knew much more ASL than I.

Now technology has improved immensely. It is not necessary to be oral to communicate.

I am not advocating no ASL. I think it very beneficial, and wish I knew much more than I do.

But when the oral camp started, it did make sense.

It made sense on the surface. All of the variables were not included. Not to discount your experience or your parent's decisions at all, BTW.

Bottesini · 07-04-2008, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

It made sense on the surface. All of the variables were not included. Not to discount your experience or your parent's decisions at all, BTW.

I understand you do not discount it. Today kids who get the BIBI program would have it all and have great lives. For a lot of my grandparents generation, it really was pathetic. And jobs were pretty much manual labor, like pressman for the newspaper, since it was loud and hearing did not want it. They also put a big burden on their kids to help them. I don't really require help.

I'm not saying this very well, since it looks like I am trying to support oral. I am not. BIBI is better than either of the old ways.

I will try to shut up now.

shel90 · 07-04-2008, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bottesini

I understand you do not discount it. Today kids who get the BIBI program would have it all and have great lives. For a lot of my grandparents generation, it really was pathetic. And jobs were pretty much manual labor, like pressman for the newspaper, since it was loud and hearing did not want it. They also put a big burden on their kids to help them. I don't really require help.

I'm not saying this very well, since it looks like I am trying to support oral. I am not. BIBI is better than either of the old ways.

I will try to shut up now.

No, no need to shut up. It would be nice to see someone's view on the oralists from back that time.

We already have so many views on it from the 80s to now but what about back then. I am interested to learn.

jillio · 07-04-2008, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bottesini

I understand you do not discount it. Today kids who get the BIBI program would have it all and have great lives. For a lot of my grandparents generation, it really was pathetic. And jobs were pretty much manual labor, like pressman for the newspaper, since it was loud and hearing did not want it. They also put a big burden on their kids to help them. I don't really require help.

I'm not saying this very well, since it looks like I am trying to support oral. I am not. BIBI is better than either of the old ways.

I will try to shut up now.

Oh, no. I understand where you are coming from. But the deaf schools of your parent's and grandparent's generation were functioning under the oral movement that started with the Milan Congress. The problems seen there can be directly related to the move away from bi-bi education into an oral only environment. I will agree that there were many problems at that time, and some of those problems continue into today. But I see them as the move toward oralism.

And I agree with Shel. Please keep posting your views. I find them enlightening.

Bottesini · 07-04-2008, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Oh, no. I understand where you are coming from. But the deaf schools of your parent's and grandparent's generation were functioning under the oral movement that started with the Milan Congress. The problems seen there can be directly related to the move away from bi-bi education into an oral only environment. I will agree that there were many problems at that time, and some of those problems continue into today. But I see them as the move toward oralism.

The people I knew from my grandparents generation were ASL signers. Not really oral . These are people from the turn of the last century. My dad's best friend was a CODA who was a cop. He was the interpreter if any deaf got arrested. The old people I remember were not oral.

That is what limited them. They could not communicate. It was hard if they even needed help in a store.

Both is good. I don't want to offend anyone. But I am glad I can ask for things I need and am a pretty fluent speechreader.

jillio · 07-04-2008, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bottesini

The people I knew from my grandparents generation were ASL signers. Not really oral . These are people from the turn of the last century. My dad's best friend was a CODA who was a cop. He was the interpreter if any deaf got arrested. The old people I remember were not oral.

That is what limited them. They could not communicate. It was hard if they even needed help in a store.

Both is good. I don't want to offend anyone. But I am glad I can ask for things I need and am a pretty fluent speechreader.

One of the problems with the Deaf Schools at the time were that the residents were ASL based in communication, but the instruction was orally based. This is where we began to see the huge gaps in the English skills of the signing Deaf. Most Deaf Schools at the time were very ASL in their informal communication between students, but the teachers were majority hearing and oral, the RA's were oral and hearing, and the adminsitrators were oral and hearing. So the ASL prospered for contact with peers, and the oral instruction limited the ability of the signers to learn English as a second language because instruction did not allow for teaching ESL.

And, you are not offending anyone. Discussions like this are very productive, and we should be able to engage inthem in a reasonable manner as we are doing.

shel90 · 07-04-2008, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

One of the problems with the Deaf Schools at the time were that the residents were ASL based in communication, but the instruction was orally based. This is where we began to see the huge gaps in the English skills of the signing Deaf. Most Deaf Schools at the time were very ASL in their informal communication between students, but the teachers were majority hearing and oral, the RA's were oral and hearing, and the adminsitrators were oral and hearing. So the ASL prospered for contact with peers, and the oral instruction limited the ability of the signers to learn English as a second language because instruction did not allow for teaching ESL.

And, you are not offending anyone. Discussions like this are very productive, and we should be able to engage inthem in a reasonable manner as we are doing.

Oh really? So the deaf people from those Oral Deaf schools couldnt really use pen and paper to communicate with hearing people because of their poor literacy skills?

Bottesini · 07-04-2008, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Oh really? So the deaf people from those Oral Deaf schools couldnt really use pen and paper to communicate with hearing people because of their poor literacy skills?

Well, I guess we both just learned something from Jillio. I really did not know the above history you told. But it really makes the pieces of my grandparents generation puzzle fall into place. That makes perfect sense.

jillio · 07-04-2008, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Oh really? So the deaf people from those Oral Deaf schools couldnt really use pen and paper to communicate with hearing people because of their poor literacy skills?

Exactly. They were not being provided with English skills in the manner in which they could effectively learn and use them, so the literacy rates started to plummet. It was more comfortable, as a result, to limit themselves to interaction with the Deaf community alone.

Bottesini · 07-04-2008, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Exactly. They were not being provided with English skills in the manner in which they could effectively learn and use them, so the literacy rates started to plummet. It was more comfortable, as a result, to limit themselves to interaction with the Deaf community alone.

That is exactly the way I remember the old people. And why I can not criticize my Dad because he wanted more for me.

shel90 · 07-04-2008, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Exactly. They were not being provided with English skills in the manner in which they could effectively learn and use them, so the literacy rates started to plummet. It was more comfortable, as a result, to limit themselves to interaction with the Deaf community alone.

Oh..so that's where the myth came from about Deaf people being "isolated". That definitely does not apply to today's Deaf people..not by a long shot and people are still saying that members of the Deaf community isolate themselves which confused me cuz I dont see that at all. Now, I see where that myth or idea came from. All these OLD and outdated myths really need to go!

shel90 · 07-04-2008, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bottesini

Well, I guess we both just learned something from Jillio. I really did not know the above history you told. But it really makes the pieces of my grandparents generation puzzle fall into place. That makes perfect sense.

Same here cuz I have oralists or people who are against the Deaf community telling me that the reason they feel that way is cuz they believe that Deaf people who use ASL isolate themselves which I do not see at all as I am an active member of the Deaf community. It shows that the oralists still hang onto to old and outdated myths..geez!

jillio · 07-04-2008, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bottesini

That is exactly the way I remember the old people. And why I can not criticize my Dad because he wanted more for me.

Yep. Nor would I criticise your dad for wanting more for you. But I see the problem as rooted in oralism. It is following the Milan Congress that we began to see the ills.

jillio · 07-04-2008, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bottesini

Well, I guess we both just learned something from Jillio. I really did not know the above history you told. But it really makes the pieces of my grandparents generation puzzle fall into place. That makes perfect sense.

We can all learn from each other.

Bottesini · 07-04-2008, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Yep. Nor would I criticise your dad for wanting more for you. But I see the problem as rooted in oralism. It is following the Milan Congress that we began to see the ills.

Yes after you explained that it made such perfect sense.

07-03-2008, 08:12 PM	#1 (permalink)
faire_jour Registered User Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 590	Question for all in the oral camp Can I just ask,what does it hurt to give a deaf child ASL?

07-03-2008, 08:30 PM	#2 (permalink)
shel90 Sun Whorshipper Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: A Desert Rat that has found herself in Maryland Posts: 16,155 Blog Entries: 1	Read this thread... http://www.alldeaf.com/deaf-news/424...student-2.html Especially posts #48, #57, #66, #95, and #114..read the whole thread. There are more posts about why the oralist do not want their kids to be exposed to sign language from the start. __________________ ~Shel~ "A child educated only at school is an uneducated child." -George Santayana

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07-04-2008, 01:23 PM	#3 (permalink)
jillio Banned Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 21,197	Good question, faire jour. But I doubt that you will get many replies, because all the reasons that the oralists come up with have already been disproven. To answer would mean that they would have to make their irrational bias blatantly obvious, and they try to keep it hidden under a thin veil of noble rhetoric.