Cued Speech: your opinion? - Page 3

shel90 · 05-11-2008, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafskeptic

And what happens if the sounds has little meaning to the child? How will cued speech have any meaning if they don't know what the cues stand for?

Spoken English is very accessiable to the hearing. I'm afraid that even with the best hearing aids and implants, spoken English is only partially accessible to the deaf in many cases. I notice that even many deaf with good English skills are not as idiomatic (myself included) as the hearing. The reason being that it's harder to pick up on spoken English and that's where you learn slang and idioms.

I agree with you. I know my writing lacks that creativiness with the idioms. Yes, my grammar is great and all but I feel that there is still something missing from my writing.

jillio · 05-11-2008, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

I agree with you. I know my writing lacks that creativiness with the idioms. Yes, my grammar is great and all but I feel that there is still something missing from my writing.

That's that rigidity that is evident in many deaf who were raised orally. One only gets that fluidity if language is acquired naturally, and I have yet to see an oral only program that allows that for deaf children.

Cloggy · 05-11-2008, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

That's that rigidity that is evident in many deaf who were raised orally. One only gets that fluidity if language is acquired naturally, and I have yet to see an oral only program that allows that for deaf children.

Guess acquiring oral language is easier when deaf children can hear....

jillio · 05-11-2008, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloggy

Guess acquiring oral language is easier when deaf children can hear....

Not unless they can hear 100% and from birth. Learning oral language might be easier, but that is entirely different from acquiring language.

But then, if they can hear 100%, there is no need for CS.

shel90 · 05-11-2008, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloggy

Guess acquiring oral language is easier when deaf children can hear....

Hear like hearing children or hear but get partial access to everything? There is a huge difference there. The definition of "hear" can mean a lot of things.

deafbajagal · 05-11-2008, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oceanbreeze

What you are advocating, though, is a visual model of English. What if the child has no language at all? I fail to see how you can teach them cueing when they don't have a grasp of a language; any language. In my mind, you'd first have to teach them a language, and then, expand upon that by teaching them cueing.

BINGO! What a lot of people fail to realize...it is so possible for kids to learn how to read, say, sign individual words perfectly - and yet still not grasp the meaning. Shel (and other teachers), how many times have you seen this as a teacher? I know I've seen it time again and again.

This is an actual real-life example of a boy who was reading in my classroom. He has a lot of hearing and can speak pretty well. He was in 6th grade. We were reading the book "Holes" by Louis Sacher. He read the passage out loud, in perfect speech. He said every word. So I took him aside for my one-on-one comprehension activity. Come to find out, he had no idea of what he just read. The word "shovel" - he could say it. But he didn't know what it was. The word "ground." He could say it...but didn't know what it meant. His language skills - zippo. His speech skills - superior. LIke a lot of hearing kids with SLD (specified learning disability), deaf kids can learn words (sign and/or say the words upon request...but not necessarily can read them when they are tied into sentences and passages. Or not necessarily know what the words mean. THAT's the part where exposure to actual ongoing, accessible visual language including (NOT representation of the language such as cueing or MCE) is crucial to filling this gap.

Oceanbreeze · 05-11-2008, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafbajagal

BINGO! What a lot of people fail to realize...it is so possible for kids to learn how to read, say, sign individual words perfectly - and yet still not grasp the meaning. Shel (and other teachers), how many times have you seen this as a teacher? I know I've seen it time again and again.

This is an actual real-life example of a boy who was reading in my classroom. He has a lot of hearing and can speak pretty well. He was in 6th grade. We were reading the book "Holes" by Louis Sacher. He read the passage out loud, in perfect speech. He said every word. So I took him aside for my one-on-one comprehension activity. Come to find out, he had no idea of what he just read. The word "shovel" - he could say it. But he didn't know what it was. The word "ground." He could say it...but didn't know what it meant. His language skills - zippo. His speech skills - superior. LIke a lot of hearing kids with SLD (specified learning disability), deaf kids can learn words (sign and/or say the words upon request...but not necessarily can read them when they are tied into sentences and passages. Or not necessarily know what the words mean. THAT's the part where exposure to actual ongoing, accessible visual language including (NOT representation of the language such as cueing or MCE) is crucial to filling this gap.

I get it. You can teach a child sounds, but if they can't appreciate the meaning of those sounds, what's the point?

Oceanbreeze · 05-11-2008, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Hear like hearing children or hear but get partial access to everything? There is a huge difference there. The definition of "hear" can mean a lot of things.

Exactly. From my understanding, the CI allows the person/child to hear at a mild HoH level, but even then hearing isn't normal. The sounds are manufactured electronically.

shel90 · 05-11-2008, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafbajagal

BINGO! What a lot of people fail to realize...it is so possible for kids to learn how to read, say, sign individual words perfectly - and yet still not grasp the meaning. Shel (and other teachers), how many times have you seen this as a teacher? I know I've seen it time again and again.

This is an actual real-life example of a boy who was reading in my classroom. He has a lot of hearing and can speak pretty well. He was in 6th grade. We were reading the book "Holes" by Louis Sacher. He read the passage out loud, in perfect speech. He said every word. So I took him aside for my one-on-one comprehension activity. Come to find out, he had no idea of what he just read. The word "shovel" - he could say it. But he didn't know what it was. The word "ground." He could say it...but didn't know what it meant. His language skills - zippo. His speech skills - superior. LIke a lot of hearing kids with SLD (specified learning disability), deaf kids can learn words (sign and/or say the words upon request...but not necessarily can read them when they are tied into sentences and passages. Or not necessarily know what the words mean. THAT's the part where exposure to actual ongoing, accessible visual language including (NOT representation of the language such as cueing or MCE) is crucial to filling this gap.

Oh I see that often from the kids who got referred to our program from the mainstreamed programs. I have discovered that the kids from the TC programs possess higher critical thinking skills than those who came from strictly oral-only programs so at least in TC programs, they are getting language foundation.

According to the public school curriculm, it starts in 2nd grade when the kids start developing critical thinking skills and we get kids come to us at 10, 11 or older who couldnt answer any "why" questions abstractly! This is the problem with oral-only programs...it seems like speech skills is the primary goal and once the students master that, then all is good. Why did I say that cuz of what their former teachers wrote in their old IEPs when I get their files. It is nothing about being able to pronouncing the words. Like one goal was "When given a passage, XXXX can read 20 words using the correct word formation." Nothing about comprehension, thinking critically and so on. I just create a new IEP with goals that the students need for real life....critical thinking skills and language foundation.

deafskeptic · 05-11-2008, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafbajagal

BINGO! What a lot of people fail to realize...it is so possible for kids to learn how to read, say, sign individual words perfectly - and yet still not grasp the meaning. Shel (and other teachers), how many times have you seen this as a teacher? I know I've seen it time again and again.

This is an actual real-life example of a boy who was reading in my classroom. He has a lot of hearing and can speak pretty well. He was in 6th grade. We were reading the book "Holes" by Louis Sacher. He read the passage out loud, in perfect speech. He said every word. So I took him aside for my one-on-one comprehension activity. Come to find out, he had no idea of what he just read. The word "shovel" - he could say it. But he didn't know what it was. The word "ground." He could say it...but didn't know what it meant. His language skills - zippo. His speech skills - superior. LIke a lot of hearing kids with SLD (specified learning disability), deaf kids can learn words (sign and/or say the words upon request...but not necessarily can read them when they are tied into sentences and passages. Or not necessarily know what the words mean. THAT's the part where exposure to actual ongoing, accessible visual language including (NOT representation of the language such as cueing or MCE) is crucial to filling this gap.

I had a roommate at MSSD who was like that.

jillio · 05-11-2008, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafbajagal

BINGO! What a lot of people fail to realize...it is so possible for kids to learn how to read, say, sign individual words perfectly - and yet still not grasp the meaning. Shel (and other teachers), how many times have you seen this as a teacher? I know I've seen it time again and again.

This is an actual real-life example of a boy who was reading in my classroom. He has a lot of hearing and can speak pretty well. He was in 6th grade. We were reading the book "Holes" by Louis Sacher. He read the passage out loud, in perfect speech. He said every word. So I took him aside for my one-on-one comprehension activity. Come to find out, he had no idea of what he just read. The word "shovel" - he could say it. But he didn't know what it was. The word "ground." He could say it...but didn't know what it meant. His language skills - zippo. His speech skills - superior. LIke a lot of hearing kids with SLD (specified learning disability), deaf kids can learn words (sign and/or say the words upon request...but not necessarily can read them when they are tied into sentences and passages. Or not necessarily know what the words mean. THAT's the part where exposure to actual ongoing, accessible visual language including (NOT representation of the language such as cueing or MCE) is crucial to filling this gap.

That is exactly what I have been saying. Comprehension is the issue, and without a whole language approach that provides concept, a child is not able to comprehend what they read. Reading without comprehension is no more than a parroting exercise.

Well said, deafbajagal!

loml · 05-12-2008, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheri

Not exactly blocking the lips, the hand is kinda in the way of the mouth moment when doing chin hand position and side hand position.

Cheri - It is really hard for me to comment on this without actually seeing it.
I could only guess: maybe they are not placing their hand accurately or the reciever is not familiar with cueing and doesn't know what they are reading.

Does that help?

loml · 05-12-2008, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafbajagal

BINGO! What a lot of people fail to realize...it is so possible for kids to learn how to read, say, sign individual words perfectly - and yet still not grasp the meaning. ....

..... LIke a lot of hearing kids with SLD (specified learning disability), deaf kids can learn words (sign and/or say the words upon request...but not necessarily can read them when they are tied into sentences and passages. Or not necessarily know what the words mean. THAT's the part where exposure to actual ongoing, accessible visual language including (NOT representation of the language such as cueing or MCE) is crucial to filling this gap.

deafbajagal - Imo, not comprehending what you are reading, for deaf or hearing, is not necessarily 100% due to the system used, but a reflection of the how, when, where and the quality of learning/teaching enviroment.

You stated in a previous post:

Quote:

I learned cue speech in case I met someone who use cueing exclusively - I wanted to be able to communicate with that person. But in reality, cueing is supposed to be (in my opinion, again) used as a tool for teaching literacy (such as spelling, sounding out words for reading, etc.).

Where did you learn to cue?

Rainshower77 · 05-12-2008, 10:45 PM

I was raised as oralism without sign languages (never learned it)... and if Cued speech could save all the trouble of misunderstanding people by lipreading alone.. I would be all for it instead of oralism alone.

hands should not be blocking when cuing.. and you don't always need to look at the hands if you know what they are saying from lipreading alone.. It just suppose to assist you what sounds they are using in case you don't know what they are saying.

loml · 05-13-2008, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafskeptic

And what happens if the sounds has little meaning to the child? How will cued speech have any meaning if they don't know what the cues stand for?

Spoken English is very accessiable to the hearing. I'm afraid that even with the best hearing aids and implants, spoken English is only partially accessible to the deaf in many cases. I notice that even many deaf with good English skills are not as idiomatic (myself included) as the hearing. The reason being that it's harder to pick up on spoken English and that's where you learn slang and idioms.

deafskeptic -You said that you have some cueing experience, you must then already know that this is NOT about voiced sounds, but visual "sounds." You do not need to have the best hearing aide or a CI to use CS. As for the idioms and slang, cueing could/would help you acquire the vocabulary. Then it is a matter of discussion and defining them.

Why do you think the visual sound would have little meaning? Please expand.

Thank cue.

jillio · 05-13-2008, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

deafskeptic -You said that you have some cueing experience, you must then already know that this is NOT about voiced sounds, but visual "sounds." You do not need to have the best hearing aide or a CI to use CS. As for the idioms and slang, cueing could/would help you acquire the vocabulary. Then it is a matter of discussion and defining them.

Why do you think the visual sound would have little meaning? Please expand.

Thank cue.

There is no such thing as "visual sound".

A phoneme made visual through CS is nothing more than that. A phoneme. Individual phonemes have no meaning. They have to be combined to complete the word symbol, and then that word symbol has to be converted to contextual meaning.

However, this can be readily accomplished through the use of ASL without all of the added steps and directed learning necessary for the same to be accomplished via CS.

loml · 05-13-2008, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oceanbreeze

I get it. You can teach a child sounds, but if they can't appreciate the meaning of those sounds, what's the point?

Oceanbreeze -If this was the approach educators/families took to language acquisition, literacy levels would/could be in a much sadder state.

jillio · 05-13-2008, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

Oceanbreeze -If this was the approach educators/families took to language acquisition, literacy levels would/could be in a much sadder state.

This is exactly the approach being taken with numerous deaf children. Its called oralism.

deafskeptic · 05-13-2008, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

deafskeptic -You said that you have some cueing experience, you must then already know that this is NOT about voiced sounds, but visual "sounds." You do not need to have the best hearing aide or a CI to use CS. As for the idioms and slang, cueing could/would help you acquire the vocabulary. Then it is a matter of discussion and defining them.

Why do you think the visual sound would have little meaning? Please expand.

Thank cue.

.
I believe your question has already been answered by another poster. For starters, you need a good foundation of language skills as has been explained to you many times.

Most hearing don't cue and you only pick up slang from from your peers and it helps if your parents use idioms. I read a lot and that is how I picked up on idioms. Comics are a good source of slang though I certainly recall having fights with my parents who thought it kept me from learning to read. Most people don't have to make an effort to pick up slang.

However, even with this access I'm usually behind by a few months slang wise. I'm very good at picking up slang. The problem here is that first that slang has to be accessiable to me. Hence why I rarely use slang in my prose. Thanks to one of my hobbies, for once I was ahead of the game a few years ago.

loml · 05-13-2008, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafskeptic

.
I believe your question has already been answered by another poster. For starters, you need a good foundation of language skills as has been explained to you many times.

Most hearing don't cue and you only pick up slang from from your peers and it helps if your parents use idioms. I read a lot and that is how I picked up on idioms. Comics are a good source of slang though I certainly recall having fights with my parents who thought it kept me from learning to read. Most people don't have to make an effort to pick up slang.

However, even with this access I'm usually behind by a few months slang wise. I'm very good at picking up slang. The problem here is that first that slang has to be accessiable to me. Hence why I rarely use slang in my prose. Thanks to one of my hobbies, for once I was ahead of the game a few years ago.

deafskeptic - I also explained on several occassions that a person does not need a language base prior to cueing. I am simply trying to understand exactly how you come to the conclusions that you do about cueing? Why do you believe that a foundation is necessary? What is it about cueing that leads you to make the statements you do?

There are books available regarding slangs and idioms.

lindsay_f3 · 05-13-2008, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

It was developed to enable hearing parents to communicate with their deaf children in their native spoken language. Cued Speech removes the guesswork from speechreading and makes any spoken language accessible through vision alone.

RIT - NTID - Tipsheet: Cued Speech

i am located in the US and was wondering if there was a book or a vhs tape or a dvd ..... that i can look into and start maybe learing myself i want to teach in a deaf school and i think it would be very helpful in learing phonetics and the basics of the english language that many school systems are based unfortunatly.
if you or anyone you know of has resources i would be thankful to know!

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05-12-2008, 10:45 PM	#74 (permalink)
Rainshower77 Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 91	I was raised as oralism without sign languages (never learned it)... and if Cued speech could save all the trouble of misunderstanding people by lipreading alone.. I would be all for it instead of oralism alone. hands should not be blocking when cuing.. and you don't always need to look at the hands if you know what they are saying from lipreading alone.. It just suppose to assist you what sounds they are using in case you don't know what they are saying.