shel90

Damn Jillo! U r making me feel likle I am back in my Linguistics 501 and 502 classes! LOL

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Deafness

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jillio

LOL! Just trying to do what I do.....educate. Maybe with an understanding of linguistics, those that are buying into the CS propoganda being spread witll be able to think critically for themselves.

Oceanbreeze

I can just feel the arthritis setting in....

I agree with Rockdrummer! You're evil!

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jillio

I try, LOL!

loml

Cheri -I believe that experiencing/learning the system of CS is essential to understanding the how’s, whys and the "ah haw’s" of CS. Cueing is a "body and mind" experience.

Having book knowledge about anything in life does not equate to first hand/ hands on experience. Learning by doing is the only way to learn, imo.

We are all individuals and we will take from a hands on experience learning opportunity what we choose. I have yet to meet any individual deaf/hoh or hearing, who has chosen not to acknowledge/feel that "ah haw moment" of cueing.

Cueing for me is about literacy and improving the quality of education. The sharing of information about a tool that can/does make the learning process of English easier, in a world where there are many obstacles, is paramount to me.

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jillio

Look around this board. You will find many deaf people who have experienced the "Ah, ha!" moment. It was "Ah,ha! That's why it doesn't work!"

shel90

I think many people here forget that we are trained in this field and we have been trained to evaluate several systems. We cant promote a system that has been shown not to increase literacy levels of a population or that will make us just as responsible for the failure of the system.

However, I think CS is good as a teaching tool not as a promotion for language development.

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shel90

Linguistics classes helped me understand the structure and roots of language development. It was hard to get there cuz at first, I didnt understand it at all but once I started applying it, it was like a light bulb went off.

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jillio

Agreed! I see it most valuable as an individual tutoring tool rather than as a classroom methodology. It can be used with those individuals who are able to gain benefit from it without jepordizing the education of those who find it less than beneficial.

Exactly. To promote a system that has does not have proven efficacy is unethical.

jillio

That was your "Ah,ha" moment. You already knew from experience that oral only was not the best way to promote language acquisition. Then, the knowledge gained from your linguiistics classseslet you understand why what you already knew was true.

shel90

And that is exactly why I wouldnt promote the oral-only approach to deaf children even though I was successful with it. I don't have blinders on and I wont use myself as a poster child to promote the oralism methodology just cuz it worked for me (to a degree).

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loml

shel90- From your statement, it appears that you are under the illusion that you are the only "trained" individual that participates on this board: you could not be further from the truth. Rather pompous actually.

CS has and continues to improve literacy levels of its users.

If you think that CS is a good teaching tool, then exactly what is it a "good teaching tool" for and why?

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shel90

The only "trained" one here on this thread? Where did I say those exact words?

If I said that, yes that would make me pompous but I didnt say that so by reading too much into my words and making assumptions based on your interpretations without asking for clarification from me is pretty pompous.

Anyways..CS has been available for 40 years and why hasnt the literacy issues of deaf children improved if CS was the answer? U are the expert in CS so can u answer that?

I think it works as a teaching tool to guide with reading if the student has a good grasp of language first. The key word here is "think" meaning it is my opinion, not a fact. Big difference, loml. In my orginal statement, u see the key word, right? Nobody has to follow my opinion, right?

However, u are stating that it has improved literacy so it must be a fact. So, why arent many of us are still struggling with literacy if the system has been in use for 40 years?

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loml

shel90 - What does have to do with CS?

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deafskeptic

Wow. You've certainly asked some hard questions here.

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shel90

as u can see, it was a direct response to Jillo's post.

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loml

shel90- Which has nothing to do with the op.

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shel90

Opps, I went off topic..I am not perfect. Life is too short to sweat the small stuff so if it really bothers u, report me.

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loml

Shel90 - You said this:

Quote:

I think many people here forget that we are trained in this field and we have been trained to evaluate several systems. We cant promote a system that has been shown not to increase literacy levels of a population or that will make us just as responsible for the failure of the system

Shel90 - I did not say that. I said:

Quote:

From your statement, it appears that you are under the illusion that you are the only "trained" individual that participates on this board: you could not be further from the truth. Rather pompous actually.

That, imo, does not equal this: originally posted by Shel90-

Shel90-The answer in one word is attitude.

Shel90- I have asked this question of other people on this board, and yet to have an answer. What is it about CS that leads you to form the opion of:

Quote:

it works as a teaching tool to guide with reading if the student has a good grasp of language first??

You have an opinion/thought about a system that you have never trained in or used based on what exactly? How can you from an educational perspective evaluate CS when you do not use it and have not learned it? .

Shel90 - I answered this earlier and I shall answer it again in one word: attitude.

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VamPyroX

Of course...

It's like those informercials on television... "RESULTS VARY".

It varies on the individual and how they're taught.

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shel90

Attitude is not a good answer. It still doesnt give me a good answer to my question. Too general.

Ok, then if it is attitude then u are saying that those deaf children who werent able to benefit from CS because of their attitude?

See what I mean? This answer is just too general..attitude of who? The parents? The educators? The students?


U called me pompous because it appears that I am under the impression that I am the only one trained here. U either said it or didnt say it...but u did use those words, so your words, not mine. How u interpreted them, up to u but please take responsiblity for how you interpreted them instead of going around and trying to put the responsibility on me. We all interpret each other's post incorrectly sometimes but it would be nice if we take responsibility for our misinterpretation instead of blaming it on the other person.

If u want clarification, the reason I said what I said in my orginal statement was in response to why we cant promote CS as the approach to use because in our training, we evaluated the research and talked to experts in who have had experience with CS and they all agreed that it hasnt been proven to solve the literacy issues in Deaf ed.

By saying it is because of attitude is giving me the impression that you are putting the blame on others instead of the system itself. But then again, I asked first before making assumptions on the meaning of your answer.

If my response is not good enough for you, then maybe nothing I say will be good enough for u which is fine and might as well end our debate before we go in circles again.

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shel90

and loml, I wanted to add...by saying I think doesnt mean that I am right and I have room for learning more about the subject in my opinion.

I know ASL is a language....that is a fact and there is nothing that will change my mind.

I think ASL is a language...that's my opinon and there is room for me to possible change my opinion or learn more about it.

Because I am seeing so much improvement with my students' literacy skills using the BiBi method, I am going to stick to it and not change it. Why fix it if it aint broken? However, if the kids' families at home want to use CS, their decision but since many of them arent consisent with the use of sign language in their home, it is more likely they wouldnt be consistent with CS. Remember, I told you that one teacher who used to work in the CS program at a public school told me that many of the parents werent consisent with using CS in the home?

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rick48

Cloggy,

Fantastic post!

Thanks for writing what sorely needed to be written.

There are pros and cons with everything but this constant barage and
belittling of cued speech boarders on the absurd. It is clear that for many users of cued speech, it has been a benefit. I have yet to see anyone, even those for whom it did not benefit, say that it had a negative impact upon them.

Rick

jillio

And, why is it that the "fact" being claimed cannot be supported empirically? If it is, indeed, fact, there should be more out there than individual anecdote to support the "fact."

jillio

The intent of any methodology is no improve, not maintain the status quo. It reallydoesn't matter if it has had a negative impact. It has not been shown to have a positive impact on literacy. Therefore, why would one take the time and make the effort to use a system that is providing no improvement. Time and energy should be devoted to using those things that improve literacy and function. If a kid reads at a 4th grade level before the introduction of CS, and still reads at a 4th grade level after the introduction of CS, what has been gained? If a child is 3 years language delayed prior to the introduction of CS, and remains 3 years language delayed after the introduction of CS, what has been improved? Why would you not devote the time and effort to utilizing those things that result in improvement? Oh, yeah, I forgot....because CS is easier for the hearing parent to learn. Yeah, that makes tons of sense!

loml

originally posted by Shel90- The list of research that you evaluated is where and what? You say to have talked to experts who has experienced CS, what makes these people "experts in experiencing CS" Shel90?

originally posted by Shel90- Shel90 - Cueing is for the family unit first and foremost. Literacy in their language (I am not talking ASL here, this is not ASL vs CS!)The best role model for the family language and culture, is the family.

Shel90- The simple fact that people choose to negate a system, without first hand experience, imo, is attitude.

You say you have something that works: Good! That being said however, doesn't mean educators shouldn't be open to learning/trying something new.

I don't believe in making the learning of English a difficult task, for anyone.

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Cheri

Right.

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shel90

Who is it that is negating the system?


Are u proposing the elimination of ASL in the schools and use CS instead as a visual respresentative to spoken English?

Like u said, cueing is for the family first and foremost so maybe u can tackle on those families who dont use it on a consistent basis and revert back to using only spoken language without any visual cues to it.

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loml

Shel90 - Are you planning on answering my questions later or??

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shel90

about the experts? Ok...they are people who have worked in CS programs, (already gave u one person), students who came from CS programs and their parents, and research from my linguistics, language acquisition and literacy classes at Gallaudet University. Remmy, CS was invented at Gallaudet University so the research shown to us by the very same university where it was developed would hold some merit, wouldnt it?

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