InnocentOdion

Hi guys,
I'm currently wondering what people's opinions are to the Muslim veils which cover the face. If you are d/Deaf or hard of hearing and they try to talk to you, what do you do?

I personally am against the complete veil, because it's not mentioned in the Qur'an and it's a cultural hangover. The Qur'an does not say that the face should be covered. Not only that but it's alienating and seriously ugly.


What do you think?

Deafness

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Chase

People are free to cover their mouths for all sorts of reasons: religion, personal health, OSHA rules on the job, shyness about bad teeth or breath, or just plain being mean to the deafie.

It doesn't matter. I try not to judge (out loud or by expression), but I'm also free to ignore them and go find someone who understands the needs of a speech-reader.

jillio

Not to mention those that subscribe to AVT and cover their mouths intentionally to force a deaf child to use their residual hearing for comprehension.

Angel

Agree, good postie.

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InnocentOdion

Just to let you know, it's not a religious requirement in Islam to wear the hijab. I think it's cultural for the tuaregs--but it's the men who veil up, but I don't see many tuaregs wandering around.

Chase

Thank you, Innocent. I knew it wasn't universal in Islam, although some groups do demand it.

Some of any culture anywhere are more strict or lax than the rest. Thank heavens we deafies aren't that way.


Good addition to the list, Jillio (even though the kid could probably hear if he or she just stopped fooling around and tried harder).

Whatever the reason, I try to dismiss personal frustrations (more difficult with repeaters whom I've made aware of my inability to mind-read) and move on to more accommodating people.

jillio

shel90

I have had a situation when my deaf friend's neighbor tried telling us something but her face was completely covered up with the viel. My friend told her repeately that we need to read her lips but she refused. My friend said that it has been an ongoing problem between them for years now. Interesting.

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jillio

There's a problem sign would solve, eh?

Anij

I'm very respectful of cultural and religious differences ... so I actually think it's nice to see more people electing to be more deliberate in there beliefs (which in some cases involve hijab etc)

While veiling creates a problem with speechreading .... provided you really want to communicate there's always a way - pen and paper is a good start, if it's a friend or co worker perhaps ask if they might like to learn either sign/fingerspelling - or actually ... Cueing.

Where there's a will there's a way - If I want them to accept me for "me", I have to accept them for "them" as well.


If you're talking about "causal encounters" with sales people etc ... then just carry paper with you and politely tell them because of the veil you're aren't about to speechread - and would they please write what they're saying down ...

JMHO

Chase

Of course you're right, Anij. Accommodation always works both ways. For that reason, I always loop a small notebook and pen around my neck. Never leave home without it.

My deaf sister always has one in her purse, and says I look like a 'tard with the neck lanyard, but she would complain worse if I carried a purse.

We're not always successful at offers for others to write, but have the satisfaction of knowing we tried.

Buffalo

I agree with you. Veil predates the Islam religion. I read somewhere that one's face got to be bared when looking at the Kabbah.

Once I saw on the tv, an old woman covered from head to toes in black, was walking down the sidewalk. She looks like a wisp of smoke. To me, she seemed to be reduced down to almost nothing.

No veiled muslim had ever try to talk to me so I don't know what will happen if it comes down to that. I could try the pencil and paper but the woman gotta know English.

Women should expose their face for ID, etc.

There are more about islam that I have read and disagree but I won't get into that in this thread.

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Silentwolfdog

That remind me of at one time during Halloween eve, I dressed up like a ninja, a younger kid tried to pull off my veil because she didn't like being unable to read my lips. She was deaf, but wore a CI so she doesn't sign very much. It was rude of her doing that without my permission. And also I rarely move my lips and never use my voice so it couldn't have helped her much in her situation.

Like others have said, if that person refused to accomadation to my needs I can just move on to other person. But I don't depend on lips so it's no big deal to me. I can just either sign or write on a piece of paper.

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VamPyroX

Well, for a person who doesn't follow their culture... that's understandable.

However, their culture doesn't follow equality with handicap either. So, if a deaf person in that culture wanted to lipread... too bad. (Unless I'm wrong?)

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GarnetTigerMom

yep, I second that and I also agree with chase posting as well, Both of you and otherse makes excellent points.

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InnocentOdion

You're welcome. These are usually the "new groups", and really strict and sometimes dangerous ones, like Wahhabi, etc.


Hijabs don't bother me at all, but covering the mouth does. As long as I can see the face, I don't mind at all. Covering the face is alienating though, especially when you have hearing loss or are deaf and one of you doesn't sign or can't read (hehe).


Incidentally, I know the BBC didn't report this, but Jack Straw the previous home secretary had hearing loss, so this is probably why he would ask the women to remove their face veil.




I think I've heard that, too.

I've seen the same, but with her eyes visible and she had these big long bits by her armpits. I couldn't help but laugh when I lipread someone behind say "she looks like a beeping bat". Not PC of me I know but tough, eh?

Not all immigrants learn to read. My friend's mother can't read English.
I can't wear a motorcycle helmet in a bank, why can they cover all their face but their eyes/even their eyes, especially when it's not mentioned in the Qur'an, hence not a religious requirement, nor duty, nor obligation. Islam encourages a woman's "private parts" to be covered, which includes the bosom, unmentionables and the hair. So for such a woman to, it appears as though they are either really pretty, vain, or think they are a walking sex object or private part.

In fact, I've read that it was frowned upon until quite recently for a woman to be covered like that because it said she was affluent and didn't have to work.

Phillips

Very interesting... I cannot think to answer this post

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Aleser

I personally think that hijab- in the sense of covering the head, is an obligation, but that although niqab is not an -obligation-, it is something that should be allowed and respected. Do we frown on the person who prays an extra time or two a day? Of course not! They're taking part in their own relationship with G-d in a way I have no business meddling in.

And about niqab being "ugly"... uh, anyone who wears a hijab with the intent of being attractive isn't exactly subscribing to the whole purpose, modesty, are they?

I'm blind, so I can't comment on the speechreading issues.

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Aleser

Actually, helping the less fortunate is a definite big thing in Islam. This actually came up with someone here recently regarding Muslim cab drivers using Islam as an excuse to deny blind guide dog users a ride. Yes, contact with a dog's saliva is considered dirty, but it's not exactly right to leave a blind person stranded, is it? Of course not. One could simply leave a towel or mat in the trunk to use if a passenger needs to bring in a service dog.

In that same thought.. very very few groups in Islam consider niqab an obligation. Thus, the woman could simply remove the face-covering portion of her hijab if someone absolutely needed to see it, for things like court appearences, ID photographs, and yes.. helping a deaf person speechread. This "going half way" measure is absolutely acceptable to almost all people who are Muslim, and doesn't really involve much effort on the part of the woman doing it- most niqabi women I've met wear the half-niqab, which is essentially just a peice of fabric with an elastic strip.. not much of a hassle.

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"She thinks... she can make people do what she wants or needs, what is right, by the sheer force of her own talent, not by forcing them... she can teach them and persuade them... that they'll catch it from her. This is still faith in their rationality, in the omnipotence of reason. The mistake? Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it. Do not count on them."

Chase

Aleser, your gentler view of the average Islamic is needed and should not go unheeded by all of us at AllDeaf.

Our usual view through the news and subsequent postings is of extremists in religion (and those opposed to religions) -- the al Qaeda suicide bomber, the polygamist Mormon, the Satanic atheist, the gold-standard Catholic, the greedy Jew, the ignorant born-again zealot of any faith, the self-immolating Buddhists. The list seems endless.

It’s the same with the ugly American, the uncivil Frenchman, autocratic German, cruel Russian, inscrutable Oriental, carousing Australian. I’ve seen ‘em all in action, but the average good citizen who’s in the majority gets little recognition.

We deafies are similarly fitted into stereotypes, so I welcome and appreciate your calmer view.

dreama

It doesn't really bother me, what other people choose to wear.

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VamPyroX

I was referring to a deaf person in another country where this veil thing is standard. They don't exactly follow "people's rights" laws.

In that other country, that cab driver would more likely have a right to deny a blind person with a seeing dog from riding a cab.

Here in America, the driver would have to allow that person to ride.

They do have court cases where the veiled woman unveils only for the purpose of trial, since it's for legal issues and not for the public.

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Pepsi

I would walk away(not to be rude). If I can`t see the lips then I can`t understand them.

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VamPyroX

If you can't read their lips, then you can always do the usual pen-&-paper method.

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Reba

In that country, the blind person probably wouldn't even have a seeing eye dog.

Aleser