Bush_in_2004!

On the other hand . . . I heard speeches by Lane and one walks away with the impression that you see me post about him time and time again -- he doesn't mention any of the things you say. Further, the last time we heard from Lane -- "Journey Into the Deaf-World" he appeared absolutely one-sided.

of course, its been a while now since Lane wrote baloney so maybe he's found all his marbles . . .

Deafness

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deafdyke

Jake, seriously OPEN YOUR MIND. There are some things that Lane says, which I absolutly disagree with, but at the same time there are things he says which are difficult to quibble with.
All he is saying is that the residental school should be an option, and should be as well funded as private oral programs!
He is saying that ASL shouldn't be a "last option/regarded as "speshal needs"" but that it should be pursued ALONG with oral training!
You are posting from the perspective of a postlingally deafened person, who had a hell of a lot more advantages then most congentially/early (deafened before one year) prelingal deaf or even congentially/early/preling HOH folks!!!!!!!!!!!!! You really are biased b/c you regard the hearing world as the ultimate heaven. You see absolutly nothing good about the whole Deaf-World. Even if there was nothing wrong with the whole Deaf-World, you would still hate it b/c you miss hearing so much. Maybe if tomorrow you woke up with your hearing fully restored, you'd be sadly disappointed. You want something that you lost, and you're so bitter about it, that you hate every and anything associated with deafness.
I mean it seems like every single book that's out there on Deaf-Culture is automaticlly crappy in your book.
Maybe that's b/c it doesn't follow your thinking that the hearing world is heaven, and that once we poor wittle ASL using Deafies have been "restored" to hearing via speech and hearing aids/CIs/ other ALDs etc. we will automaticlly blend into hearing society and discover Hearing Heaven. It doesn't work that way. Many of us who are Deaf don't give a scatalogical noun that we can't hear or hear as well as hearing people. We Deaf are fall from alone....Many disabilty rights activists don't care that we can't see/walk/fill in the blank here. We can do anything and everything BUT walk,hear,/fill in the blank. Our disabilty is a PART of us...not something "wrong" with us or something that needs to be "fixed or "cured" We believe that disabilty is a nautral part of human variance and that most disabled people can do anything and we can adapt to and LIVE with our disabilties instead of sitting in a corner waiting for a cure (that will most likely never come b/c of the deep pockets of the medical industry) whining about how we're so "limited" b/c of our disabilties. Almost everyone has a disabilty...Those of us who are Dis Rights activists just have more visable disabilties then the rest of the human race!

Boult

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deafdyke

Boult, I think what I have to say is quite important. The whole oral deaf movement is based on the assumption that we HOHees have more in common with hearing folk then we do with deaf people. I have lived my ENTIRE life in the hearing world....I am almost hearing with my aids..Growing up I never had ANY exposure to ASL Deaf culture...matter of fact I was encouraged to assilmuate into the hearing world and I was taught that my being hard of hearing was bad and "limiting" I feel somewhat comfortable in the hearing -world, but I will never ever 100% BE a part of the hearing world!

Kalista

You did an excellent JOB in your truth perspective ! deafdyke !

I was in the same boat as you during my childhood. ASL is really priority for the Deaf children in their explosure. I am so amazed, their languages pick up very fast than our time ! They are very brilliant Deaf children

Do not pay attention to Boult and Jake. They did complain and negative about Deaf Cultures in other forums. They do not accept themselves for who they are.

We do debate between oral and ASL with cochlear implants for all these years !! I do admire Dr. Harlan Lane's books alot ! He made many good points and educational to the hearing Parents of Deaf children in Boston now.

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Enjoy the Autumn time as much as we can. The foliage are such beautiful in Vermont and New Hampshire.

Kalista

jake !!

Nothing new with you !! You need to control yourself jealous of Dr. Harlan Lane, his books published thousand of books so far. How many people purchase or read your book ?? Jake ??

I do ADMIRE in Dr. Lane's books !! I am very impressed of him because he is hearing as advocate alot of Deaf Community. He educationed to the hearing parents of Deaf children. Dr. Lane !!

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Enjoy the Autumn time as much as we can. The foliage are such beautiful in Vermont and New Hampshire.

Bush_in_2004!

the members of alldeaf would like YOU, in YOUR OWN words to explain exactly what Lane's book Mask of Benevolence is all about. Please write 2 or 3 paragraphs. NO asking for help!

We're waiting . . . .

Bush_in_2004!

"Nothing new with you !! You need to control yourself jealous of Dr. Harlan Lane, his books published thousand of books so far. How many people purchase or read your book ?? Jake ??"

many thousands too. but I yield to Dr. Lane, there is an advantage to being college professor and selling books on education (this does not, of course, guarantee a book is good,or even correct!)

Bush_in_2004!

DD sez: "You see absolutly nothing good about the whole Deaf-World."

me: if its entirely dependent on society for $$$, then its pretty hard to be impressed with the results.

DD also sez: "I mean it seems like every single book that's out there on Deaf-Culture is automaticlly crappy in your book."

Me: "Deaf President Now" is an excellent book! Better than anything I ever wrote. And it was published by . . gasp! . . Gallaudet! Give it a read.

deafdyke

You're assuming with that statement that all Deafies are on SSI/Disablity. You are assuming (like so many newly dx hearing parents of deaf/hoh kids who choose oralism ) that knowledge of ASL= a poor education/less oppertunties in life/ that their kids will become those peddlers who sell ASL cards/or that it automaticly means that they'll be on SSI/Disabilty for life.
However, in this day and age, those who depend on the healthcare system and sophiscated healthcare technology in order to function in day to day life. (read oralists) are probaly the ones most likely to have to go on SSI/Disabilty b/c they cannot find a job that pays enough money for both basic costs of living AND healthcare expenses and the additional expenses that their disabilty incurs. Even a lot of hearing/otherwise able-bodied people have trouble finding good healthcare. My sister who has absolutly no disabilties, and went to a VERY good competive school (Boston University) and who isn't one of those people who live large,(read two SUVs) or has trouble with money, has trouble finding access to good quality healthcare! I don't even WANT to think about what it's going to be like for me (hoh, and many other disabilties) when I get out of school!
Yes, a lot of us deaf/hoh are unemployed/underemployed...but so what? Many other groups of disabled ( blind,low vision, wheelchair users, etc) are unemployed/underemployed or live off of SSI/Disabilty. It's not just those of us who are profoundly/extremely severely effected by our disabiilties.(eg a quaduplic or someone who is profoundly/severely/extreme profoundly <eg someone in a coma or a persisant vegetaive state> mentally effected, or someone who has ten gazillion serious medical probs.
It's not just those who've gone to schools for the deaf or who use ASL who are unempolyed/underemployed. Even mainstreamed and oral are unemployed/underemployed. As a matter of fact, nowadays the gross majority of deaf/hoh students have been mainstreamed. Very few of us have gone to schools for the deaf. Besides if schools for the deaf are a key culprit, then how come employment levels were so high among deaf/hoh folks before IDEA was enacted? In 1970 the employment levels for deaf white males were HIGHER then for the HEARING population! This is when most deaf/hoh students attended schools for the deaf, and only a small percentage of deaf/hoh were mainstreamed!
Maybe it has to do with methodology...I know that for example, Braille is really out of fashion in blind education, just as ASL is out of fashion in deaf education.
The blind/low vision community has simliar unemployment/underemployment problems. Yet of those who are employed, most of them (80%) are literate in Braille. Maybe there's a simlair correlation with ASL and the number of deaf/hoh who are employed. I know also, most mainstreamed teachers (including special ed teachers) are not adquatly trained to teach deaf/hoh and actually they are not aquatly trained to teach most kids with classic disabilties. Most of their training is spent on learning disablities! I gotta run...will return later!

Thanks Sabby! Actually, I don't think Boult is Anti-Deaf, just that he's fallen into the trap of thinking that the oral route is the best thing in the world! I HAVE experianced growing up oral...I HAVE experianced the "oralist dream" of a deaf/hoh child returned to "normal" hearing society. It's NOT all it's cracked up to be! I am very glad that I have the skills to function somewhat in the hearing world. I am NOT advocating throwing out the hearing aids/CIs/oral training with the bathwater. I think that oral training and oral skills are something VERY valuable. However I don't think that most pro-oral people aquatly understand/express to parents the downsides of the oral movement. Most oralists have this "high and mighty" attitude that the oral route is FAR superior to the ASL and English route b/c ASL is a "crutch" and "speshal needs". I also don't think it should be an "either or" choice when it comes to language use. It is the parents responsibilty to ensure that deaf and hoh kids grow up with fluency in BOTH ASL and English, so that the child has the option to choose later, which world (s) they want to be a part of! I just know far far far far too many deaf AND hoh kids who were raised oral and discovered ASL/Deaf culture relatively late and who wish that they'd been raised with both English and ASL! I actually even know MANY PARENTS of adult deaf/hoh kids who grew up oral, and who now say that they wish they'd pursued ASL AND English, instead of falling into the trap of thinking that ASL is a "crutch"(like Jake does) My OWN PARENTS say this! They are actually VERY hardcore about this....at conferences of people with my syndrome, my parents are always talking to parents of kids with my syndrome (most kids and people with my syndrome are deaf/hoh) encouraging them to go with BOTH ASL and English. My parents aren't the only ones doing this....most of the parents of adults with my syndrome strongly encourage parents of the younger kids to learn ASL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

javapride

Uhh i can see this debate certainly has its toll, I sure would say for one thing this is an age old debate that can disperse cuz no one will resolve anythin!!!

Bush_in_2004!

DD, I'd stop assuming if I were you. It doesn't stop at SSD . . . theres DVR, Intepreter services, Residential schools, GU, NTID, ASL research, and so on . . . In other "cultures" wealth can be generated from within (or the possibility exists for it to). In the deaf culture, what few truly successful dollars that can be generated is lopsidely offset by the subsancial amount being paid by society (taxpayers).

While on the other hand CI users in the future may not need the same level of depence on society and may eventually become entirely self-supporting.

deafdyke

Oral deaf people depend on DVR(it's not just Signing Deaf...ALL deaf and hoh people are eligible for DVR services!) and Interpreter services (I assume you've never heard of lipspeakers, or oral interpreters or Cued Speech transliterators), some of them have gone to residental schools...matter of fact, there are oral deaf RESIDENTAL schools! Oral deafness isn't a magic wand that reduces dependance on government services. There's no evidence whatsoever that going the oral deaf route equals a better life.
Besides, there are a lot of cultures which depend on the government to survive...
Native Americans, (I'm actually taking a course on this, and the parellels between the deaf-culture and the Native American culture are eirirly simliar. I was even talking to my professor about this!)

I bet seventy years ago, they thought that hearing aids were the key to freedom for deaf people. While there are some superstars with CIs, even a lot of pro-oral experts admit that the sucess rate is incredibly varied, and not everyone's going to be able to hear 100% or even 70%. or even 50% with the CI. Just remember, there have ALWAYS been oral superstars(even BEFORE hearing aids!)...that doesn't mean that they represent everyone with a CI.

deafdyke

Looks like Jake doesn't know how to respond!!!!!!

Kalista

* 5 *

You should read his idiot book what he wrote. You would be Be prepare yourself.

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Enjoy the Autumn time as much as we can. The foliage are such beautiful in Vermont and New Hampshire.

deafdyke

I've been wanting to read the books. They are probaly even better to laugh at then Mad magazine. However I refuse to spend my own money to read them.
I absolutly love how Jake uses HIS experiance as "proof" that HOH folks aren't a part of Deaf culture...... He is HOH, yes...but the reason why his experiance in the whole Deaf culture has been so negative is b/c he is POSTLINGALLY deaf, not b/c he can hear relatively well!
I'm not saying that Deaf culture is perfect...far from it...I just think that the detractors bash it too much!

Boult

pez,
here's more info on audism by gallaudet
(note: the link may be "not found" so use search on gallaudet and go from there)
(note again: ok the link in the quote should be http://library.gallaudet.edu/dr/faq-audism.html instead )
(again!: I just realized that I already posted this info on page 2! hmmm oh well )

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deafdyke

Jake....just found out that Ling predicted that ASL/Sign/Deaf culture would be extinct or dying by 2003....*looks around at AllDeaf* Well...I guess he was wrong! Ling and many other oralists assumed that it was an either or choice when it came to commuication and culture! They did not realize the fact that most kids raised without Sign eventually pick up ASL...they also did not count on parents of hoh children deciding to expose their kids to ASL....It's kind of funny...years ago HOH kids got a pure oral education, and only oral failures got to learn ASL early on...now deaf kids are getting "pure oral" first and HOH and even HEARING KIDS (especially those with no disabilties) are learning ASL as a second OR first language(ever hear of baby signing?) early on....(I know of TONS of HOH kids who are learning ASL and attending schools for the Deaf!)

deafdyke

Java, I'm aware that this debate has been going on for a long time..however it's not a Sign vs. Speech debate. I am not arguing that we should dump hearing aids/CIs in the wastebasket, and have absolutly no contact with the hearing world...I support speech , and auditory training as it opens up oppertunties for deaf and hoh kids. I just think that Sign should be included in educating deaf and hoh kids, to give them every opertunty possible, and to help capitlize on deaf/hoh kids visual strenghs.

javapride

granted ur right but shouldn't the parents themselves decide whats best for thier kid and how they want to approach it ??? and as for inculding the signs and all im all for that too deafdyke, just the justification belongs to the parents and the kids themselves, debating the issue its like a battle sure we're entiled to have opioions but u can see pros and cons will always be a factor as well.

I say if the kid wants to sign fine but if parents themselves are deaf and unable to speak then by all means help them communicate with sign im sure they will do it anyway in all aspect.

deafdyke

Ah, parental choice, the old bugaboo. The trouble with parental choice is that too often when parents make commuication choices, they are making it based on very biased, inaccurate, and outdated information and stereotypes. Very few parents had/have real honest to goodness exposure to the day to day lives of deaf/hoh people. You gotta remember that until recently, most deaf and hoh people weren't really visable in the mainstream.
They tend to make their commuication decision based on what doctors and experts tell them. They also tend to make commuicative choices that seem more "normal" b/c most of them are still grieving the "loss" of a "healthy normal" (whatever that means) child. Thing is, most parents still see ASL/Sign as "speshal needs"(or a "crutch") not as a "real" language, that could give their kids advantages like English or French or even Esperanto! Pick up a copy of Volta Voices, and read the ads for early intervention programs, especially the Auditory-Verbal programs. You'll see that those ads clearly capiltilize on parental opinon of ASL/Sign as "speshal needs"/only for those poor wittle low functioning Deafies who cannot function well enough to hear and speak.
Some parents think that ASL and Deaf culture will automaticly lead to their child having a lesser quality of life, and that they'll be doomed to be one of those ASL card peddlers. I remember reading an article about a mother who raised her child with a CI and Cued Speech, and she kept yapping, that if she had chosen ASL/Deaf culture, her son's only career options would be to be on SSI/Disabilty or to be an ASL card peddler!!!!
Besides, I know far far far far far far too many parents of adult deaf/hoh who were raised oral who regret not learning ASL for their kids...I know my parents seriously regret not learning ASL for me..I know they regret being brainwashed into thinking that it was an "either or" choice for me. They now say that if they had only known, they would have gone with a bilingal approach.
I really wish more hearing parents signed with their kids, but the plain fact of the matter is, is that most Deaf kids do not have parents who Sign. There ARE hearing parents who Sign, and are very involved with their deaf/hoh kids, but most hearing parents of Signers do not Sign with their kids. That's a fact...it's a sad one...I wish it was different, that more parents CHOSE to use Sign, but even today most hearing parents of deaf/hoh don't sign.

deafdyke

Oh and Jake, methinks the reason a lot of deaf and hoh former oralists gravitate to ASL and Deaf culture is b/c the whole oral deaf/hoh experiance isn't very interesting. It's based purely on speech therapy and ALDs...(snore) How boring can you get? There's only so many times that you can talk about ALDs. Whereas it's lots of fun to learn all about Deaf culture and ASL. It's sort of like going to a new exoitic country!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

deafdyke

Also, Java, Jake's philosophy is that ASL is speshal needs. He (like a lot of experts) views ASL as a "crutch" rather then as an enhancement. According to him a pure oral kid who only says a couple of words or who has a lot of vocab but still has very garbled syntax (eg says "how many spiders have legs" instead of "how many legs do spiders have?") is more of an sucess then someone who can explain Harvard level stuff in ASL and doesn't really have too much oral skills.

pinkster

I saw this book in the Merriam Park Library (in St Paul) today, I didnt think muc of it till now. I might go and look for it this week I was never really an oralist, but this sounds interesting enough for me.

deafdyke

The book being spoken about or Jake's book? I'd like to read To Be Deaf or Not to Be Dea