Berry

That is very generous of you.

Deafness

__________________
This advertising will not be shown in this way to registered members.
Register your free account today and become a member on AllDeaf.com

ismi

Disability doesn't stop disabled people from functioning physically or mentally any more than deafness stops Deaf people from communicating. As someone who grew up with a disability, and became deaf later, it's very irritating - and offensive - when people talk about disability as if it can't be a source of pride or a positive part of my identity. The disabled community may not have a shared language, but we, like the Deaf community, share history; villains and heroes; struggles to be seen as real people; and a whole host of other similarities.

If a Deaf person doesn't ID as disabled, I don't have a problem with that; I think that's perfectly justifiable. But to justify that lack of identity by implying that disability makes someone helpless or unable to live a 'normal' life is just offensive, and it is even more frustrating when you realize that Deaf people experience - and fight against - the same sort of negative attitudes from the hearing world.

Grummer

I am fascinated too, but for slightly different reasons like 'why is it that hearing people 'approve' a hearing person to learn or have 'ability' (real or not) sign language as a mere quaint curiosity while hearing people disapprove deafs, deafies learn sign language because they believe sign language is a sign of failure to learn to speak orally'. That sort of 'double standard' to me is dangerously close to resemble a violation of human rights, even at same time, it shows the arrogancy of the hearing bastards. I'm not apologising for those 'interested heariing people' learning to sign, especially when they fail to acknowledge the very real struggle that we, deaf people have been and still are fighting for our rights to be included in society at the same time to be ourselves to have nothing 'missing' to fulfil the 'normal' life. And when they end up being a well-paid professional which feds on the existence of deaf people !!, that is RUDE if you ask me.

Back to the track, all I'm saying is, I'm sick of this hearing people have this strange "considering this, this is good for deaf...." line of thinking for it merely reflects the veiled pity while the public perception of success and failure of deaf people had and still is constrasted vastly against the hearing people's own 'success' (in this case, success to 'know' sign language is 'marketed' as a career prospect for Hearing professionals, where are the career prospects for the deaf being marketed or encouraged? ok there's teachers (or aides) or some other assistent shit positions).
That's not enough, looking at society and deaf people's positions from a wholistic perspective, I question like, where are we? and the more hearing-like deafs ar emore like hearing, they more "qualified" they are to be fitting in the greater areas of employment in roles traditionally "deemed" perceived as a hearing person's role only because they are MORE hearing !!

So oh, not one person told her to stop, because maybe they KNOW she's hearing or in some subtle body-language psychic ways others 'felt' she's 'normal' because she didnt have that awkward quirks which a REAL deaf women might 'normally' have. Like dare i say some deaf people exhibits some sort of 'acting out' or slight paranoia or some sort of 'bent' in their behaviour that's when it tunes out of ordinary , it 'alerts' the public hence they "knows" this is a 'confused deaf person' , like straight away without thinking (subconsciously perhaps) this deaf/Deaf person should stop waving arms all over the place. (Then again this hearing woman is a 'tuned in' hearing, meaning to say she'd know already whats appropriate 'space' to blend in signs signals and use of personal space in public areas without violating the passer-bys , thus not offending them. This sort of thing may have brought up on her, that 'acceptance'. On this point maybe this might be an area worth investigating to look at 'normative hearing' person's personal space vs Deaf culture's using of space.

shrugs

my 2 cents

shel90

Wow! I have never thought of that...how if a hearing person wants to learn ASL, it is accepted by other hearing people but deaf people who rely on sign language are faced with discrimination and disgust by the general population. Interesting point of view and I have to agree with u now that I think about it.

__________________
"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous

Grummer

The meaning of the word Disabilty, disabled, are NOT interchangable, and nor is disabilty interchangable with impairment.

Disabled people DO have a shared language, its called English or whatever the national language a country have, you might be talking about this 'underground' language or slangs they cultivated whilst they were institionalised, exclusively shared amongst the disabled people within the 'disability culture' yes they have it, and they play wheelchair sports and so on.

The very thing - Disabilty - DOES makes a person helpless and be denied to live a 'normal life' because this is exactly what disability is, a phenomenon which society's structure has imprisoned impaired people by stripping off their rights to be full members of society by discrimination and exclusion.

There is a problem when deaf people not identifying with the disabled, however it is out of the league of this mere reply or even this entire forum mainly because deaf politics is said to be incompatiable with disability politics, - however.
Disabilty DOES stop disabled people from functioning, do not confuse impairment with disabilty, it is the society's values and attitude that is disabliing. Just as no body can change the way the body or mind functions but we can change the way disabled (and deaf) people intergrate with society by inclusion.

Lastly, Disability doesn't stop disabled people from functioning physically or mentally any more than deafness stops Deaf people from communicating.
well, deaf people can communicate!, it is the way society prevents deaf people from communicating AND from the other way around too, the families, teachers dont communicate properly either, and neither they seem to want to. THAT sort of behaviour which deaf people had to 'put up with' , just as much as disabled people put up with carers, and 'specialists teachers patronising them all day long, every day. This same disabiliing phenomenon severs the communication channels which deaf people have the rights to sign language, from this stance , it is compelling to perceive deaf people are NOT the least disabled group simply because the mode of communication is so contrary against society!

shel90

It is one thing that the general society disables deaf people..that is understandable cuz many people are ignorant about deafness.

What makes me furious is that the deaf person's inner circle such as parents, their teachers, pastors, and employers who disable them. I do not accept that at all.

__________________
"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous

fredfam1

Maybe I am just unaware Shel, but the only people I have ever seen discourage anyone from the use of sign language have been so called professionals. I have watched other people watch Deaf people sign in public, and I have never seen anything but fascination. Certainly I have never seen anyone try to discourage a Deaf person from signing. Maybe others have experienced this but maybe things have changed as well. I know in this area the emergency medical personel are taking sign language classes. Maybe when the older profesionals who have perpeptuated this attitude die off, only the new, aware and more informed will be left to deal with the two communities as a whole.

__________________
http://mommasarmyboots.wordpress.com/

SignfrmtheHeart

Yes, I know. Hence why hearing people suck.

ismi

Grummer, you *completly* misread my comment. I'm saying the two setups are quite similar, and yet you have posts like jasin's that put down people who ID as disabled in order to lift up deafness. Which perpetuates existing stigmas surrounding disability, and is unnecessary.

SignfrmtheHeart

I have seen many instances where people close to the deaf person discourages their use of sign.
For example, my high school ASL teacher used to tutor a deaf boy, whose mother was hearing (He was about 12 years old). He had a cochlear implant, which did nothing because not only was he profoundly deaf, but he received it long after the mother entered him in oralism programs. She thought that he was simply struggling with school and needed a tutor, when in reality, he could not understand what was being said because he had no comprehension of speech, and his mother refused to let him learn ASL. If my teacher merely spoke to him, he couldn't understand her. But if she also used sign (she experimented to see what he knew), he picked it up and understood. He was a whiz in math, but had a harder time with the other subjects because they all required reading. Since his mother was against the use of ASL (and my teacher could not go against what the mother wanted), he became extremely frustrated with the situation and no longer wanted to learn. He also could not fit into neither the Deaf nor hearing worlds. His mother's discouragement of the use of ASL made it much more difficult for him in and outside of school.

As for the older "professionals" having this attitude, it comes in all ages. I have seen it in younger people as well.
And unfortunately, as already stated before by others, that attitude is what is disabling.

GarnetTigerMom

Ah yes, I have heard there are thousand people with dyslexic. I know some kids are dyslexic also. I have learned lot about that when I was in high school. Dyslexia is a neurologically-based, often familial, disorder which interferes with the acquisition and processing of language. Varying in degrees of severity, it is manifested by difficulties in receptive and expressive language, including phonological processing, in reading, writing, spelling, handwriting, and sometimes in arithmetic.

Dyslexia is not the result of lack of motivation, sensory impairment, inadequate instructional or environmental opportunities, or other limiting conditions, but may occur together with these conditions.

Although dyslexia is lifelong, individuals with dyslexia frequently respond successfully to timely and appropriate intervention. So that makes dyslexia a
disability. But you are not alone.

__________________


GarnetTigerMom

"The rain may be falling hard outside,
But your smile makes it all alright.
I'm so glad that you're my friend.
I know our friendship will never end."
-- Robert Alan

fredfam1

Maybe that's why I like to hang around Deaf people more than Hearing people.
When I sign the opposite of what I intended, Deaf people are amused, and quizical, but often when I say the opposite of what I intended to say, Hearing people get angry or look at me like I'm really strange. If I keep my mouth shut in the Hearing community I'm accepted. My husband took years to understand me. Often he will look at me and say, "Did you mean to say, blah..blah?" Then I will say, "Yes I did, what actually came out of my mouth?" (When we were first married he actually thought I was lying to him at times!) Writing is great because I get to see what I said and then correct it.

__________________
http://mommasarmyboots.wordpress.com/

jasin

Sure it does. People in wheel chairs cant walk, people with schizophrenea cant think properly, but the deaf now .. we can do everything the hearing and others can, our deafness does not limit us; heck, some of us can even listen to music i.e. the guy in the book "anything but silent".

Grummer

Rubbish, I stand my grounds, you obviously interchange disability and impairment.

In your quote, 'Disability doesn't stop disabled people from functioning physically or mentally any more than deafness stops Deaf people from communicating.", you have just said that disability does NOT stop disabled people functioning Their bodies........Disability refers to the SOCIAL IMPACT(oppression), NOT the Physical attributes a person(s) have that are different from the norm. Since they are different, they get treated differently, -THAT itself, the very reactions from 'normal people' affects the impaired person(s).

You need to re-read what you wrote, quite apparent you have the meaning of disabilty mixed up. Put is this way, Disability DOES stop disabled people functioning in society. The very word "disabled" is a identity tag which they claim, to broadcast the fact they are oppressed and not want pity and vows to fight that stigma from the impairment level of issues (and more), in as much as "Deaf" people vows to fight on the language level of issues facing them.

Aleser

I completely disagree. Disabled is a very accurate and correct title for what I am- compared to the general population, I have a significant impairment that severely affects how I function in daily living. That is a disability. Thus, deafness is a disability.

How about, instead of shying away from our titles as "disabled" people, we embrace them and instead work to change the public's conceptions of what disability means and who a disabled person can be?

__________________
"She thinks... she can make people do what she wants or needs, what is right, by the sheer force of her own talent, not by forcing them... she can teach them and persuade them... that they'll catch it from her. This is still faith in their rationality, in the omnipotence of reason. The mistake? Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it. Do not count on them."

Aleser

You're completely missing the point.

A person who has complete paraplegia cannot walk. However, if they use a wheelchair, they can get any and everywhere they want to, just like people who can walk.

A person who is deaf cannot hear. However, given hearing aids and cochlear implants (or speechreading skills, or ASL), they can communicate with the world anywhere and everywhere, just like people who can hear.

It's no different.

__________________
"She thinks... she can make people do what she wants or needs, what is right, by the sheer force of her own talent, not by forcing them... she can teach them and persuade them... that they'll catch it from her. This is still faith in their rationality, in the omnipotence of reason. The mistake? Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it. Do not count on them."

Brother_Trucker

While I was in high school....I was chatting with one of my (hearing)friend, he knows few sign language. The teacher told us that we had free time and be quiet.. I decide to chat with my friend. few moment later BANG!!!!! On my desk my teacher yelled right by my face "BE QUIET!!!" your "hands" are making a lot of noise!!!... I punched my teacher's nose then went to office turned myself in and told the vice prinicpal what had happened. Sign language doesn't make an noise!!! Didn't get in trouble..instead transferred to another similar class diffrent teacher. After that day... the teacher walked and saw me.. He walked opposite direction lol!!!!

ismi

Aleser stated exactly what I meant.

Grummer, I'm very much aware of the distinction between impairment and disability, so let me restate what I said in the most exact way I possibly can: people who are generally labeled as 'disabled' by society, but are not deaf, are not limited by that label any more than deaf people are limited by their label. In other words, the fact that I use a wheelchair doesn't mean I lack a 'normal' lifestyle anymore than the fact that most of us here are deaf means we lack a 'normal' lifestyle. Both deaf and disabled groups are limited to some degree by their impairments, as well as by the structure and attitudes of the society we live in. But is actually not true to say that I wrote earlier that disabled people aren't limited by their disability; what I actually said is that we're not limited by our disability any more than deaf people are limited by deafness.

jillio

The bolded statement says it all in a nutshell.

jillio

Are you limited by your disability, or are you limited by the lack of accommodation to your disability?

ismi

The expectations of society are the primary limiting factor for any disabled person; for some, impairments are also a limiting factor (though they are almost always entangled with the fact that society is not entirely accepting of people with disabilities).

My post at 5:51 on 2/12 is the relevant bit here, though - while deaf (and Deaf) people do need to assert that they are full human beings like everyone else, it's not right to do so by pushing other people down, by perpetuating the stigmas surrounding their group.

dreama

I totally agree with Aleser and ISMI.

ALL disabled people face barriers due to discrimination. Some more so then others.

There is nothing wrong with being Deaf. There is nothing wrong with any other disability either. It seems that some people seem to want to raise themselves by putting down people with other disabilities such as blindness and I wish they wouldn't.

__________________
I speak for those who cannot speak for themselves.
http://www.fightfoca.com/

Grummer

The wordings, "People with disabilities" I dont buy it , since HAVING a disability imply it *problems we have* only belongs to us, in other words, its not society's fault but our physical or mental make up's fault.

It is a slick veiled method of using word-doctoring to deny that it is the society whose has own up to some (or majority of) responsibilies in perpentuating the very problem - Disability!

I prefer Disabled people, it is more honest and it is clearer by all means because this is exactly what is happening to us, we are disabled by society! I'm sure Aleser would agree with that.

What exactly do you mean by deaf (especially Deaf) people perpentuating the stigmas. (I do know what perpentuate means, it is 'to carry on')

Could you please to elaborate?

Aleser

I agree that society can creat conditions that further disable us, but I also feel that we should not -reject- the title 'disabled' but rather work to show the world that being disabled is perfectly respectable trait.

In regards to deaf people and the stigma surrounding other disabilities, I see this all the bloody time, as a deafblind person. As a group, we are quite inclined to believe that we (Deaf people, not deafblind specifically) have the "best" disability and that others are inferior or less functioning. Particularly, those who are blind, psychologically disabled, or those who use a wheelchair are often preceived by deaf people as lesser beings.

I'm not saying we all do it, but I am saying that as a population, we are more likely to do it... when in fact we should never be doing it at all. If disabled people will not fight for the respect and equal treatment of other disabled people... how can we ever expect to have any?

__________________
"She thinks... she can make people do what she wants or needs, what is right, by the sheer force of her own talent, not by forcing them... she can teach them and persuade them... that they'll catch it from her. This is still faith in their rationality, in the omnipotence of reason. The mistake? Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it. Do not count on them."

jasin

Wrong, absolutely wrong!!! I can communicate!!!!!!!!!!! I can communicate better then even most hearing people.

I do not need hearing to communicate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Byrdie714

My way is easy. We don't need to sit around and debate this thread.

Just tell people to "F*** OFF!" if they don't want you to use sign language.

jillio

Agreed. And that is exactly the point I was making. Functional limitations are far less disabling that are the societal ones. For any disability.

jillio

Exactly. So it is the disability created more by societal limitations than by functional limitations.

Aleser

... which, would be why I included speechreading and ASL as examples of methods of communication. Glad to see that you can read before going off on a rant.

__________________
"She thinks... she can make people do what she wants or needs, what is right, by the sheer force of her own talent, not by forcing them... she can teach them and persuade them... that they'll catch it from her. This is still faith in their rationality, in the omnipotence of reason. The mistake? Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it. Do not count on them."

shel90

Yes, it is those so-called professionals. The very same oralists that told my mom if I was exposed to sign language, I would never be normal. How terrible is that?

However, what I meant about the general society..they dont understand deafness but by disabling us, they demand us not to use the drive-thrus, refuse to provide us interpreters at places of employments or doctor appts, or treating us like 2nd class citizens who have no intelligence. That's what I mean. I know that there are some people who are very understanding and try to meet our deaf needs but the majority of the general population seem afraid of us.

__________________
"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous