Do We Need Proper Inglish and Spelling?

Doug5 · 02-09-2008, 12:24 AM

there is only one thing thats important when communicating, the people interacting understanding one another.

A good example is people texting one another. Its such a pita typing on a phone keypad there are all kinds of abbreviations for common phrases, like pita pain in the ass, lol laugh out loud, using numbers for words like 4 for, 2 to, or hybrids like h8 hate, g8 great etc.

I wonder if english is going to devolve into something simpler

shel90 · 02-09-2008, 12:26 AM

I read somewhere that the English vocabulary of children in the 1950s was larger than children of today. I wish I can remember where I read that. It was interesting...

omegaman · 02-09-2008, 12:52 AM

Yeah, I read that children have poor vocabulary today. If I recall, it is because teachers don't teach kids how to spell correctly. Instead, children are taught to spell how they hear words.

Doug5 · 02-09-2008, 12:55 AM

I have heard that too. English teachers getting all into a tizzy about that.

jasin · 02-09-2008, 02:37 AM

I think its a bunch of bull personally! We dont need half these words we have -- they just keep adding them to the dictionary to say they've added them. Basic English for example, it consit of only 500 words and it's more then enough to comincate with.

Doug5 · 02-09-2008, 02:48 AM

they need all the hard werds for the spelling bee's

***VamPyroX*** · 02-09-2008, 05:41 AM

It's all because of the "No Child Left Behind" crap.

Seriously, people are becoming too flexible with how kids are taught.

When I do emails or post in the forums, I type with the best grammar and spelling as I can (with a few exceptions like "cuz" instead of "because"). Other than that, I use slang because I'm speedtyping... on AIM, etc.

When my parents use their cell phones to send me text messages, it's difficult for them to do it with proper spelling or grammar. So, they use abbreviations. 1 out of 50 times, I'll have to think for a moment to figure out what they're trying to say... other than that, they do just fine.

jillio · 02-09-2008, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VamPyroX

It's all because of the "No Child Left Behind" crap.

Seriously, people are becoming too flexible with how kids are taught.

When I do emails or post in the forums, I type with the best grammar and spelling as I can (with a few exceptions like "cuz" instead of "because"). Other than that, I use slang because I'm speedtyping... on AIM, etc.

When my parents use their cell phones to send me text messages, it's difficult for them to do it with proper spelling or grammar. So, they use abbreviations. 1 out of 50 times, I'll have to think for a moment to figure out what they're trying to say... other than that, they do just fine.

**nodding** It has become about test performance rather than learning.

deafskeptic · 02-09-2008, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VamPyroX

It's all because of the "No Child Left Behind" crap.

Seriously, people are becoming too flexible with how kids are taught.

When I do emails or post in the forums, I type with the best grammar and spelling as I can (with a few exceptions like "cuz" instead of "because"). Other than that, I use slang because I'm speedtyping... on AIM, etc.

When my parents use their cell phones to send me text messages, it's difficult for them to do it with proper spelling or grammar. So, they use abbreviations. 1 out of 50 times, I'll have to think for a moment to figure out what they're trying to say... other than that, they do just fine.

Nods. When I post I will correct my grammar if not always my spelling (I'm really bad at spelling) but when I'm using IMs or playing WoW, it's harder for me to edit my grammar in chat. Most people don't call on it even when I leave out ings when it's needed.

Once some grammar nazi in my guild at WoW kept correcting other hearing's grammar and I typed rolls her eyes at grammar nazi. He pounced on my grammatical errors and told me in guild chat he couldn't believe I would make such an error. I put him on ignore and one hearing person told me hell nobody uses correct grammar in chat so who cares? I don't need some hearing @$$ making fun of my grammar after all the work I spent on my English skills. I get As in English even when I'm the only deaf in that class. So there.

Reba · 02-09-2008, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasin

I think its a bunch of bull personally! We dont need half these words we have -- they just keep adding them to the dictionary to say they've added them. Basic English for example, it consit of only 500 words and it's more then enough to comincate with.

I hope that you're being facetious.

Reba · 02-09-2008, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

I read somewhere that the English vocabulary of children in the 1950s was larger than children of today. I wish I can remember where I read that. It was interesting...

I believe it. I think kids aren't reading as many books now, so they aren't expanding their vocabulary.

Reba · 02-09-2008, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VamPyroX

It's all because of the "No Child Left Behind" crap.

Seriously, people are becoming too flexible with how kids are taught.

When I do emails or post in the forums, I type with the best grammar and spelling as I can (with a few exceptions like "cuz" instead of "because"). Other than that, I use slang because I'm speedtyping... on AIM, etc.

When my parents use their cell phones to send me text messages, it's difficult for them to do it with proper spelling or grammar. So, they use abbreviations. 1 out of 50 times, I'll have to think for a moment to figure out what they're trying to say... other than that, they do just fine.

I believe there's nothing wrong with using slang and abbreviations in the proper context, such as the examples you gave. The problem is when kids (and adults) don't know when and how to use proper vocabulary and grammar. College students should know without telling them that "lol" doesn't belong in an MLA research paper.

shel90 · 02-09-2008, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

I believe it. I think kids aren't reading as many books now, so they aren't expanding their vocabulary.

Yea..the article stated that because of TV, video games, and lack of respect towards education are some of the reasons.

There were even statistics comparing the numbers...it was a huge difference.

deafskeptic · 02-09-2008, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

I believe it. I think kids aren't reading as many books now, so they aren't expanding their vocabulary.

I remember one kid on WoW calling me on my extensive vocabulary on chat because I used the word loathe and he asked me about my age. He said I should use little words so kids his age could understand me. I was like I knew that word when I was 14. I get both grammar nazis and kids singling me out for my grammar and vob. I can't win.

Now I understand why some guilds prefer older players.

Reba · 02-09-2008, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafskeptic

I remember one kid on WoW calling me on my extensive vocabulary on chat because I used the word loathe and he asked my age. He said I should use little words so kids his age could understand me. I was like I knew that word when I was 14. I get both grammar nazis and kids singling me out for my grammar and vob. I can't win.

Now I understand why some guilds prefer older players.

That kid at WoW is wrong. People should include some words that might be new to the other people in their crowd. That doesn't mean talking "above" everyone else, or sounding like an English lecture. But sprinkling a few "advanced" words into a conversation stretches the vocab brain "muscle" and makes it stronger. That's how we learn--exposure to new words, new ideas, and new experiences!

Suppose grownups spoke "baby talk" to kids all the time. How would the poor kids learn their language? (Same with sign languages. How would CODA kids learn to become fluent in signing if their parents just used "baby signs"?)

shel90 · 02-09-2008, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

That kid at WoW is wrong. People should include some words that might be new to the other people in their crowd. That doesn't mean talking "above" everyone else, or sounding like an English lecture. But sprinkling a few "advanced" words into a conversation stretches the vocab brain "muscle" and makes it stronger. That's how we learn--exposure to new words, new ideas, and new experiences!

Suppose grownups spoke "baby talk" to kids all the time. How would the poor kids learn their language? (Same with sign languages. How would CODA kids learn to become fluent in signing if their parents just used "baby signs"?)

I agree with u there, Reba.

Chase · 02-09-2008, 12:36 PM

It always amuses me how people with poor English skills get such satisfaction blaming their inability or disability on English teachers.

In the first place, teachers with English degrees are in high school (junior high in a few cases) and colleges. If students haven't learned basic skills in their home language by that time for whatever reason, the majority (1) have one or more learning disabilities but have been socially promoted, (2) are usually lacking in other fine art skills as well, and (3) many by then are too hostile to accept any form of classroom learning.

Secondly, English teachers don't make up the rules; they just try to explain them. Rules of grammar are developed over many, many years by the people speaking the language. Even the "simple" languages mentioned in this post which substitute numbers and letters for sounds develop rules . . . or no one would be able to understand anyone else. But substitutions never simpliy language; they always complicate it, like what happened to the workers on the Tower of Babel.

Another thing: Learning has never been restricted to classrooms. That's a fairly recent phenomenon, and in my view a huge mistake and excuse for the lazy. High schools have become little more than elementary schools that pass students along. Likewise, colleges become what high schools once were. It’s all part of a “dumbing” down process (crab theory) which happens when people whine for big government to take over what communities can do far better. The vast majority of educated people are “self-educated.” They learn by reading and doing, not by sitting around complaining because some teachers were mean to them or didn’t take the added time to “draw them out.” Bah! I was always overworked teaching the majority who wanted to learn.

Finally, education has no formal beginning and never ends. I could read before I started school because no one could stop me. Before I had enough money saved to go to college, I’d already self-educated myself past the basics to be able concentrate on the subjects which were a challenge. And the real challenge was NEVER QUIT, no matter how little money there was and no matter what problems life threw in the way.

Lack of education or a difficulty in learning are not the fault of other people--especially not people who earned a degree or two in English. That’s just whining from people who want instant skills and knowledge without putting in the time and effort required.

Banjo · 02-09-2008, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chase

It always amuses me how people with poor English skills get such satisfaction blaming their inability or disability on English teachers.

In the first place, teachers with English degrees are in high school (junior high in a few cases) and colleges. If students haven't learned basic skills in their home language by that time for whatever reason, the majority (1) have one or more learning disabilities but have been socially promoted, (2) are usually lacking in other fine art skills as well, and (3) many by then are too hostile to accept any form of classroom learning.

Secondly, English teachers don't make up the rules; they just try to explain them. Rules of grammar are developed over many, many years by the people speaking the language. Even the "simple" languages mentioned in this post which substitute numbers and letters for sounds develop rules . . . or no one would be able to understand anyone else. But substitutions never simpliy language; they always complicate it, like what happened to the workers on the Tower of Babel.

Another thing: Learning has never been restricted to classrooms. That's a fairly recent phenomenon, and in my view a huge mistake and excuse for the lazy. High schools have become little more than elementary schools that pass students along. Likewise, colleges become what high schools once were. It’s all part of a “dumbing” down process (crab theory) which happens when people whine for big government to take over what communities can do far better. The vast majority of educated people are “self-educated.” They learn by reading and doing, not by sitting around complaining because some teachers were mean to them or didn’t take the added time to “draw them out.” Bah! I was always overworked teaching the majority who wanted to learn.

Finally, education has no formal beginning and never ends. I could read before I started school because no one could stop me. Before I had enough money saved to go to college, I’d already self-educated myself past the basics to be able concentrate on the subjects which were a challenge. And the real challenge was NEVER QUIT, no matter how little money there was and no matter what problems life threw in the way.

Lack of education or a difficulty in learning are not the fault of other people--especially not people who earned a degree or two in English. That’s just whining from people who want instant skills and knowledge without putting in the time and effort required.

Well said. Education is everywhere, not just in the classroom.

jillio · 02-09-2008, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chase

It always amuses me how people with poor English skills get such satisfaction blaming their inability or disability on English teachers.

In the first place, teachers with English degrees are in high school (junior high in a few cases) and colleges. If students haven't learned basic skills in their home language by that time for whatever reason, the majority (1) have one or more learning disabilities but have been socially promoted, (2) are usually lacking in other fine art skills as well, and (3) many by then are too hostile to accept any form of classroom learning.

Secondly, English teachers don't make up the rules; they just try to explain them. Rules of grammar are developed over many, many years by the people speaking the language. Even the "simple" languages mentioned in this post which substitute numbers and letters for sounds develop rules . . . or no one would be able to understand anyone else. But substitutions never simpliy language; they always complicate it, like what happened to the workers on the Tower of Babel.

Another thing: Learning has never been restricted to classrooms. That's a fairly recent phenomenon, and in my view a huge mistake and excuse for the lazy. High schools have become little more than elementary schools that pass students along. Likewise, colleges become what high schools once were. It’s all part of a “dumbing” down process (crab theory) which happens when people whine for big government to take over what communities can do far better. The vast majority of educated people are “self-educated.” They learn by reading and doing, not by sitting around complaining because some teachers were mean to them or didn’t take the added time to “draw them out.” Bah! I was always overworked teaching the majority who wanted to learn.

Finally, education has no formal beginning and never ends. I could read before I started school because no one could stop me. Before I had enough money saved to go to college, I’d already self-educated myself past the basics to be able concentrate on the subjects which were a challenge. And the real challenge was NEVER QUIT, no matter how little money there was and no matter what problems life threw in the way.

Lack of education or a difficulty in learning are not the fault of other people--especially not people who earned a degree or two in English. That’s just whining from people who want instant skills and knowledge without putting in the time and effort required.

Reba · 02-09-2008, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chase

... High schools have become little more than elementary schools that pass students along. Likewise, colleges become what high schools once were.

That's a fact.

I have a collection of my dad's elementary school papers, text books, and report cards. In elementary school they were reading the same literature that is used in undergraduate college classes now. Oh, I forgot to mention. My dad went to a one-room school house in Indiana farm country, during the Depression, barefoot and wearing overalls.

Apparently his education was good enough for him to later challenge test out of the first two years of college, and get his bachelor's degree in electrical engineering.

When I started college, I was able to take (and pass) CLEP tests in all my first year general courses (English, math, humanities, science) and get a head start on my program.

It's even worse now. I interpret in public schools and college, so I see what's happening there. As I'm interpreting a college class, often I get this feeling that, hey, I learned this in junior high.

The kids now have the benefit of the internet for easy research, informational TV programs on the History and Discovery channels, and instant news on cable, and yet they are so clueless about so many things. It's so sad.

Quote:

... The vast majority of educated people are “self-educated.”

Yep. I remember as a kid reading everything in the children's public library, and then getting "special" permission to access the grown-up library (back in the days when they were separated).

I used to think my grandmother had a college degree because she was so well-read in the classics, and knowledgeable in all the fine arts. Nope. She just attended local public girls' high school. But she read and read, and visited museums and art shows. Every week I'd visit her and look at the "coffee table" size art books she had checked out from the library. Then, we played "Scrabble" together. Uh, oh! That's a vocabulary building game.

Quote:

Finally, education has no formal beginning and never ends. I could read before I started school because no one could stop me. Before I had enough money saved to go to college, I’d already self-educated myself past the basics to be able concentrate on the subjects which were a challenge. And the real challenge was NEVER QUIT, no matter how little money there was and no matter what problems life threw in the way.

Lack of education or a difficulty in learning are not the fault of other people--especially not people who earned a degree or two in English. That’s just whining from people who want instant skills and knowledge without putting in the time and effort required.

I'm totally with you. Codger-to-codger, of course. Heh, heh.

Berry · 02-09-2008, 02:03 PM

WOW!

What amazes me is that every poster, no matter how diametrically opposed to other posters: Has at least one good, solid, point to make.

Here is one inescapable fact: Language lables you; Pigeon holes you; Puts you in your own little corner and furthermore people will leave you there.

There is no one way to use English, ASL, or any other language. Your best bet is to be able to talk the way the peeps talk whose respect you looking for. I don't talk the same way with my grandson and his dawgs as I do with the old hippies at the artist group, or the thinkaholics at my old chess club: The same with my spellen.

And yes, leet is not only changing Nglish, its changen sign too. Other day I saw a deaf girl fingerspell "g 8" (pointing to her friend) "txt" (pointing to herself, frowning mock serious).

shel90 · 02-09-2008, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chase

It always amuses me how people with poor English skills get such satisfaction blaming their inability or disability on English teachers.

In the first place, teachers with English degrees are in high school (junior high in a few cases) and colleges. If students haven't learned basic skills in their home language by that time for whatever reason, the majority (1) have one or more learning disabilities but have been socially promoted, (2) are usually lacking in other fine art skills as well, and (3) many by then are too hostile to accept any form of classroom learning.

Secondly, English teachers don't make up the rules; they just try to explain them. Rules of grammar are developed over many, many years by the people speaking the language. Even the "simple" languages mentioned in this post which substitute numbers and letters for sounds develop rules . . . or no one would be able to understand anyone else. But substitutions never simpliy language; they always complicate it, like what happened to the workers on the Tower of Babel.

Another thing: Learning has never been restricted to classrooms. That's a fairly recent phenomenon, and in my view a huge mistake and excuse for the lazy. High schools have become little more than elementary schools that pass students along. Likewise, colleges become what high schools once were. It’s all part of a “dumbing” down process (crab theory) which happens when people whine for big government to take over what communities can do far better. The vast majority of educated people are “self-educated.” They learn by reading and doing, not by sitting around complaining because some teachers were mean to them or didn’t take the added time to “draw them out.” Bah! I was always overworked teaching the majority who wanted to learn.

Finally, education has no formal beginning and never ends. I could read before I started school because no one could stop me. Before I had enough money saved to go to college, I’d already self-educated myself past the basics to be able concentrate on the subjects which were a challenge. And the real challenge was NEVER QUIT, no matter how little money there was and no matter what problems life threw in the way.

Lack of education or a difficulty in learning are not the fault of other people--especially not people who earned a degree or two in English. That’s just whining from people who want instant skills and knowledge without putting in the time and effort required.

I will have to agree with this one. I think that was how I mastered English despite being in an oral-only environment without any resources growing up by self-education.

Berry · 02-09-2008, 02:57 PM

Right, Shel. Self education rules!

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafskeptic

I remember one kid on WoW calling me on my extensive vocabulary on chat because I used the word loathe and he asked me about my age. He said I should use little words so kids his age could understand me. I was like I knew that word when I was 14. I get both grammar nazis and kids singling me out for my grammar and vob. I can't win.

Now I understand why some guilds prefer older players.

This comes back to language as label and adjusting your language to the group you want to fit in with... My granddaughter, who has an extensive vocabulary and reads all the time, just told me she never lets any of her peers or teachers know either of these two things about her because she does not want to be pegged as a nerd or a geek.

In America: football players are cheered; academic majors are jeered.

Reba · 02-09-2008, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berry

...In America: football players are cheered; academic majors are jeered.

It's crazy.

deafskeptic · 02-09-2008, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berry

02-09-2008, 12:24 AM	#1 (permalink)
Doug5 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 227	Do We Need Proper Inglish and Spelling? there is only one thing thats important when communicating, the people interacting understanding one another. A good example is people texting one another. Its such a pita typing on a phone keypad there are all kinds of abbreviations for common phrases, like pita pain in the ass, lol laugh out loud, using numbers for words like 4 for, 2 to, or hybrids like h8 hate, g8 great etc. I wonder if english is going to devolve into something simpler

02-09-2008, 12:26 AM	#2 (permalink)
shel90 Sun Whorshipper Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: A Desert Rat that has found herself in Maryland Posts: 16,155 Blog Entries: 1	I read somewhere that the English vocabulary of children in the 1950s was larger than children of today. I wish I can remember where I read that. It was interesting... __________________ ~Shel~ "A child educated only at school is an uneducated child." -George Santayana

02-09-2008, 12:52 AM	#3 (permalink)
omegaman ambient Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Remember what the doorknob said... Posts: 863	Yeah, I read that children have poor vocabulary today. If I recall, it is because teachers don't teach kids how to spell correctly. Instead, children are taught to spell how they hear words. __________________

02-09-2008, 05:41 AM	#7 (permalink)
*VamPyroX* bloody phreak from hell Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Hell Posts: 27,867	It's all because of the "No Child Left Behind" crap. Seriously, people are becoming too flexible with how kids are taught. When I do emails or post in the forums, I type with the best grammar and spelling as I can (with a few exceptions like "cuz" instead of "because"). Other than that, I use slang because I'm speedtyping... on AIM, etc. When my parents use their cell phones to send me text messages, it's difficult for them to do it with proper spelling or grammar. So, they use abbreviations. 1 out of 50 times, I'll have to think for a moment to figure out what they're trying to say... other than that, they do just fine. __________________ Check out my city... CLICK HERE! (If you already visited yesterday, visit again today!)

Today
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02-09-2008, 12:55 AM	#4 (permalink)
Doug5 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 227	I have heard that too. English teachers getting all into a tizzy about that.

02-09-2008, 02:37 AM	#5 (permalink)
jasin Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Puyallup, Washington Posts: 779	I think its a bunch of bull personally! We dont need half these words we have -- they just keep adding them to the dictionary to say they've added them. Basic English for example, it consit of only 500 words and it's more then enough to comincate with.

02-09-2008, 02:48 AM	#6 (permalink)
Doug5 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 227	they need all the hard werds for the spelling bee's

02-09-2008, 12:36 PM	#17 (permalink)
Chase Premium Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,316	It always amuses me how people with poor English skills get such satisfaction blaming their inability or disability on English teachers. In the first place, teachers with English degrees are in high school (junior high in a few cases) and colleges. If students haven't learned basic skills in their home language by that time for whatever reason, the majority (1) have one or more learning disabilities but have been socially promoted, (2) are usually lacking in other fine art skills as well, and (3) many by then are too hostile to accept any form of classroom learning. Secondly, English teachers don't make up the rules; they just try to explain them. Rules of grammar are developed over many, many years by the people speaking the language. Even the "simple" languages mentioned in this post which substitute numbers and letters for sounds develop rules . . . or no one would be able to understand anyone else. But substitutions never simpliy language; they always complicate it, like what happened to the workers on the Tower of Babel. Another thing: Learning has never been restricted to classrooms. That's a fairly recent phenomenon, and in my view a huge mistake and excuse for the lazy. High schools have become little more than elementary schools that pass students along. Likewise, colleges become what high schools once were. It’s all part of a “dumbing” down process (crab theory) which happens when people whine for big government to take over what communities can do far better. The vast majority of educated people are “self-educated.” They learn by reading and doing, not by sitting around complaining because some teachers were mean to them or didn’t take the added time to “draw them out.” Bah! I was always overworked teaching the majority who wanted to learn. Finally, education has no formal beginning and never ends. I could read before I started school because no one could stop me. Before I had enough money saved to go to college, I’d already self-educated myself past the basics to be able concentrate on the subjects which were a challenge. And the real challenge was NEVER QUIT, no matter how little money there was and no matter what problems life threw in the way. Lack of education or a difficulty in learning are not the fault of other people--especially not people who earned a degree or two in English. That’s just whining from people who want instant skills and knowledge without putting in the time and effort required.

02-09-2008, 02:03 PM	#21 (permalink)
Berry Registered User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Oroville, Ca. Posts: 137	WOW! What amazes me is that every poster, no matter how diametrically opposed to other posters: Has at least one good, solid, point to make. Here is one inescapable fact: Language lables you; Pigeon holes you; Puts you in your own little corner and furthermore people will leave you there. There is no one way to use English, ASL, or any other language. Your best bet is to be able to talk the way the peeps talk whose respect you looking for. I don't talk the same way with my grandson and his dawgs as I do with the old hippies at the artist group, or the thinkaholics at my old chess club: The same with my spellen. And yes, leet is not only changing Nglish, its changen sign too. Other day I saw a deaf girl fingerspell "g 8" (pointing to her friend) "txt" (pointing to herself, frowning mock serious).