deafdyke

Except for you learning Sign a little later, your communication experiance is something that I'd like to see for the gross majority of oral first dhh kids.
I'm OK with oral first, AS LONG as the child is followed VERY closely to ensure that they aren't falling behind. I think all oral first kids should learn Sign as a second language by first grade at the latest.
We really need to equipt ALL dhh kids with a full toolbox. Early exposure is important. If they aren't exposed early, they will never be completely fluent.
Actually, jillo did you know that there's a simlair education debate in blind education as well? The difference is that except for a VERY small handful of schools,(eg Florida School for the Blind and Alabama School for the Blind) most schools for the blind tend to have majority multihandicapped populations. I have to say that I think that most dhh and blv (blind low vision) kids need to attend seperate schools or programs for their disabilty, for the first few years of their education. They wouldn't be denied placement in a mainstream program. They could attend a mainstream program part time, to get any possible benifits.
Barbaro, that's not lack of social skills. That's emotional disturbance/ beginning of sociopathy. Lack of social skills is more like Asperger's Syndrome.



Silentwolfdog, how old are you? What class was it?
Going to a hearie/mainstream school for just one class is kinda silly.....The way I was thinking it would work, is that the kid would start out at a Deaf School, for lower grades like preschool/kindergarten and first grade. They would attend a local mainstream/hearing school for some subjects to gradually figure out what placement would be best for them. If they (and their parents) felt that the mainstream program was good for them....GOOD. They would be able to attend that program with no problems. It's just that usually its the opposite. Kids are sent to mainstream schools, and only are transferred to Deaf schools, as a bottom of the barrel placement.

Deafness

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jillio

Yes, dd, thank you for bringing that up. I was aware of the debate in blind education.

Barbaro

Oh, boy. Give me some time, so I can count my old classmates' heads. It's way past my bedtime.

I do agree with what you said. My mother often said that early exposure is extremely important. Very early.

I'm not a psychologist, but isn't a sociopath antisocial personality disorder? I just perused my post again. I apparently am mistaken in stating he was convicted of sexual assault. He was not convicted of sexual assault, but it was dismissed in the court. However, he was convicted of unlawfully having sexual relations with a 17 year-old-girl. He was 19 at the time; It occurred at the Deaf school. I believe he spent a year in a jail or so. If he is a sociopath, his public lawyer would bring it up, though. She even requested for all-Deaf jury, but the judge denied it anyway. sorry, this is topic off.

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jillio

Off topic again, but wanted to reply to your question.

Antisocial personality disorder is an extreme form of sociopathy. Both, however, involve knowing socially accpetable ways to behave, and infact5, being able to behave in socially acceptable ways in situations anytime they perceive that behavior to be of some sort of benefit to them. However, they have an inability to empathize with others, and also a total disregard for following the rules, either the social rules, or the legal rules, that others obey. They are usually quite intelligent, and can justify their behavior in numerous ways. They are also quite clever at covering their sociopathic tendencies.

I think what dd was referring to was more of a social unawareness, and that often is seen in persons with language delays that were never properly addressed. The problems with pragmatic use of language, and inability to discern implied meanings results in a sort of social clumsiness.

deafskeptic

Nods, I remember a certain poster in alldeaf who shall remain unamed who displayed difficulty with the pragmatic use of language.

I also remember that one of my roomates from MSSD who displayed at the very least what I'd call antisocial tendices. I remember that she set fire to the MSSD basement and that six fire trucks came to school. I know because I was walking back from the Gally book store and counted them. She finally got thrown out for a very public act of ah... indecency. I was glad I had her for only two weeks.

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Dixie

Wow this is an interesting thread to have. Its something Ive always had in the back of my mind, but Ive never really sat down and thought about it. Well, now I have. There's alot of stuff that mom and dad remember me doing that I dont even recall, stuff that I should remember.

Like being age 4 and running into a glass display shelf at a department store and having to have stitches on my head.

I recall very little of my early school years but I can remember random visual things that oddly, really dont matter in the whole scheme of things. Like I never really remember having an FM system in 2nd grade, I only remember finally getting an award for good grades all year long.

And this is sort of embarrassing but I do not know my multiplication tables. I think this is because we had to verbally recite them. It took me the whole school year to learn them whereas the other kids had them memorized and recited by heart within a couple of months.

Like deafdyke - my strong point is language oddly, especially written language, words on a page.

Although I struggled in school to make good grades like my brother always getting grounded for bad grades, losing privileges for bad grades, I mean it was awful and mostly because I wasnt hearing the information given. How can you learn and process new information if you never received it in the first place?

I think my teachers and parents all missed the signs that I wasnt understanding because I wasnt getting the information. It was hard.

I was also a social oddity. Classmates shied away from me. My only friends were the other unpopular kids in my class, but even then, they too were like OMG she's a weirdo!

By grade 8, what few friends I had were gone. After that I was just a loner. My 9th grade year was hell, 10th grade wasnt much better. I hated it. It was to the point that I seriously considered dropping out because I wasnt making the cut to be successful. I was a loser and thought I would never amount to much more than that. I was hard, it really was. To put it in perspective, my avg GPA was a 1.8 - barely passing, no matter how much I tried. By grade 9 I gave up completely, I never did more work than absolutely necessary. Then I think one of my teachers realized I was falling between the cracks because although I never did my homework, my test scores were exceptionally good. She encouraged me to try, to think hey maybe this isnt so bad. Because the next thing I remember is a very sweet girl by the name of S---- came into my life, offered her friendship, lent an ear when I needed it, and importantly showed me a different way of living. Because one person said I was worth the air I breathed, I began to wake up from my slumber and thus turned around. I went from Ds and Fs to As and Bs, eventually inducted the national honor society. After she married and moved on (understandable, life changes) I was lost, I was like well now what? My only friend is gone. Then I met J------, a teacher at the school that realized I was quite lonely, again offered her friendship and encouraged me to press on to finish high school despite my social struggles.

Im telling you from experience, if deaf and hoh kids are missing out on the social and informational aspect of education they are going to see nothing but bleakness fall through the cracks and completely miss the boat.

Theres a difference between laziness and having some reception issues, my part was the reception issues. Sadly alot of people mistake this reception part on laziness or unwillingness to pay attention or to do the work set before them. Its hard to do the job if you were never showed how


And its funny how my high school career ended - I walked by myself during graduation, ever the loner and never invited to the after graduation party.

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jillio

Yes, I remember, as well. The problems were textbook perfect!

Agreed...glad you did not have to deal with that roommate for a long period of time. Most definately sounds antisocial to me, and could have put you in a very dangerous situation.

Silentwolfdog

This is why a sense of hopelessness is pretty high at school for the deaf. If you went there (to one place I went to, of course) and asked them what type of jobs do they want. They would either answer by working for Wal-Mart or with someone they know. Not doctor, not president, or whatever, and that kinda sucks. They are trapped in that little bubble. Only if they knew the free space that existed outside of that bubble that are available for them to explore.

That's why I felt like I was being suffocated when I was at that school. Lol, school for the deaf is closest thing I have been to jail.

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deafdyke

On the other hand SilentWolfDog, I never went to a Deaf school, and I got SO much of the attititude that "oh she'e never gonna acheive"
It's like they think if you don't suceed with minimal accomondations, you're a DumbDeaf.
Yes, it is. What were the specific charges behind the sexual assault case that was dismissed?
The other case sounds very ambigious. It could be that he was mildly emotionally distrubed.
Nowadays, most students with both emotional issues and deafness, attend seperate programs from just deaf kids. Some schoosl for the Deaf even have seperate schools for those types of kids.

deafskeptic

Yeah, I feel sorry for her other roommates as they had to put up with her much longer than i did. Somone mistakenly put me in Dorm B when they should have put me in Dorm E.

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Barbaro

Yes, I have seen general behavior within my classes. Definitely, sociopaths are very intelligent and cunning. They can blend into the society well, but it doesn't seem to associate his background. He was desperately in need of significant attention and support. He had no ability to develop his critical thinking, basic essentials, failed to understand why it is wrong to hurt people verbally and physically. The only ones had to teach him basic essentials were the teachers, but he kept harming people verbally and physically. Our former teacher asked us to select a character from books we like, and dressed our costumes as characters for the book parade and costume contest. After the show was over, he suddenly went ballistic on our teacher,"I did not win anything! I got nothing! Not fair!" Meanwhile a teacher tried to calm him down in a civil tone, students became frightened and thought he was going to hit a teacher again. He then ripped off his costume apart after our teacher made a costume for him. He failed to understand the purpose of losing healthy competition is normal...

I am no child psychologist and I could have contacted my family member who is a psychologist or his friend, FBI profiler. Sharing the class with him for three years does not make me an expert to determine whether he was a future sociopath or not. In my unprofessional opinion, he appears to be severe emotional disturbance and should seek semi-permanent help immediately. The jail is definitely not an answer for him. I believe he may pull another temper before he harms another one.


I did not follow his case carefully at the time. The case is over 12 years ago. The only thing I received general information was from the local news and newspapers. The case is more of he said, she said. Both were seniors at a Deaf school and she knew him for about 5 years. While he raped her at a school, she cried out for help and Deaf students near her could not hear her screams. She ran to her counselor just after it occurred. But after this victim's testimony was heard at the court, supporters of a defendant doubted her, and made it look like she made it up. There was obviously a miscommunication going on at the court that caused headaches. That may be one of the reasons that dismissed sexual assault charge. His public lawyer had mentioned that a hearing jury did not understand sign language, won't be able to tell whether she is telling the truth or not. That's why she requested for all-Deaf jury. He is out of the jail and is not allowed to keep in any contact with her ever.

Anyway, I have counted 5 first oral only DHH classmates, and they were pretty stable and average. Most of them did not learn to sign until they were in 5th grade to 7th grade, yet they were doing well. Several years ago, I heard some of them are math teacher and computer programmers now. I'm biased to say students from stable environments and families will probably doing well in the future.

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jillio

Yes, the person you describe sounds like a very dangerous individual. The problem with treating someone with anti-social personality disorder is that they don't see that there is anything wrong with them. It is always the other person, not them. They are very difficult clients to treat for this reason.

As a child, he probably would have been diagnosed with "conduct disorder." Anti-social personality disorder is an adult diagnosis only. But the majority of adults who are daignosed with anti-social personality disorder were diagnosed with some form of conduct disorder as children.