SEE: "has become extremely popular in the schools"?

InnocentOdion · 01-30-2008, 04:24 AM

Quote:

What is SEE?

Signing Exact English (SEE) is a sign system that matches signs with the English language. It is one of the first manual English systems to be published (1972) and has become extremely popular in the schools. Children who are exposed at an early age to SEE are able to learn idiomatic standard English and thus have learning opportunities similar to those of hearing children.

Modern Signs Press, Inc. - Frequently Asked Questions date copied 2008-01-30

Does anyone know how true this is? I thought SEE usage was supposed to be decreasing, not increasing.

Also, I'm curious to see a website on "learn SEE"; I can't find any. I'm really curious about how they sign 'ing' and 'ful' and 'to', for example, but I can't find anything on it. I don't plan on learning it (heaven forbid), but I am curious as to how these are planted next to signs.

jillio · 01-30-2008, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InnocentOdion

Modern Signs Press, Inc. - Frequently Asked Questions date copied 2008-01-30

Does anyone know how true this is? I thought SEE usage was supposed to be decreasing, not increasing.

Also, I'm curious to see a website on "learn SEE"; I can't find any. I'm really curious about how they sign 'ing' and 'ful' and 'to', for example, but I can't find anything on it. I don't plan on learning it (heaven forbid), but I am curious as to how these are planted next to signs.

False. The "ing" sign for example, is made with the same handshape as "j" only the sign moves outwardly instead of inward, as in "j". "Ful" is fingerspelled, as is "ed". "To" is nondominant hand in 1 handshape with dominant hand in 1 handshape moving to and touching the index finger of nondominant hand."S" as in plural and possessive is fingerspelled. These are just a few examples, but you can begin to see how cumbersome it is.

Cheri · 01-30-2008, 02:19 PM

Why would you think that SEE usage was supposed to be decreasing, not increasing? There's nothing wrong with SEE signs. I use it and I would continue to use it.

webexplorer · 01-30-2008, 06:03 PM

Yeah, I don't see a problem with the SEE. My hearing sister uses SEE. I have nothing to against any type of sign languages.

RedFox · 01-30-2008, 06:38 PM

I've seen the ed signed as a d being thrown over the shoulder as in past. For ness, it's n moving downwards against a flat vertical hand.

InnocentOdion · 01-30-2008, 06:40 PM

jilio, what do you mean "False"? To which part?

I've heard SEE is decreasing on various anti-SEE or pro-ASL only websites. Am I wrong that it's decreasing?

I don't have any problem with people using SEE, but I wouldn't learn it as it's a lot more work to have sign English and to have to sign every single word when they aren't needed, and ASL is far more popular, so if any other sign language I'd learn ASL (I'm a native Briton so I study BSL). I like dropping things which aren't needed during the conversation, as well as having two signs for "happy" and "merry" when one is enough.

However, a few signs are always useful to know, which is why I was curious as to a couple of them.

It does seem like it could be a lot harder to sign sentences in, though maybe it's because I'm used to dropping "to" and "ing" and stuff.

Cheri · 01-30-2008, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by webexplorer

Yeah, I don't see a problem with the SEE. My hearing sister uses SEE. I have nothing to against any type of sign languages.

Me too.

Babyblue · 01-30-2008, 08:28 PM

I guess it depends on ones preferences. So many different ways to speak in the English language. just consider it as an accent. People speaks different accents and slangs. and the ASL, SEE, PSE. are all different but yet one can understand what they are saying.

It doesn't bother me either. I have talked to people that signs different ways and methods. Just respect their choices of language. I know some ASL is different in the northern part of the US from the southern. Just as the accents are.

jillio · 01-30-2008, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheri

Why would you think that SEE usage was supposed to be decreasing, not increasing? There's nothing wrong with SEE signs. I use it and I would continue to use it.

No, there is nothing wrong with SEE signs used in a conversational context. However, it is decreasing in educational usage. Even in theory, those programs that claim to incorporate SEE actually, when observed, use a PSE system.

jillio · 01-30-2008, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InnocentOdion

jilio, what do you mean "False"? To which part?

I've heard SEE is decreasing on various anti-SEE or pro-ASL only websites. Am I wrong that it's decreasing?

I don't have any problem with people using SEE, but I wouldn't learn it as it's a lot more work to have sign English and to have to sign every single word when they aren't needed, and ASL is far more popular, so if any other sign language I'd learn ASL (I'm a native Briton so I study BSL). I like dropping things which aren't needed during the conversation, as well as having two signs for "happy" and "merry" when one is enough.

However, a few signs are always useful to know, which is why I was curious as to a couple of them.

It does seem like it could be a lot harder to sign sentences in, though maybe it's because I'm used to dropping "to" and "ing" and stuff.

I meant that it is on the decrease in an educational environment. I don't have a problem with anyone who chooses to use SEE, if that is their preferred method of communication. But various studies have shown that even when most individuals claim to use SEE, what they are actually using is PSE. Unless one includes every word ending, every possessive, initializes every sign to correspond with the word equivilant rather than signing concept, and signs every word in a sentence in correct English syntax, then one is not using SEE.

jillio · 01-30-2008, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babyblue

I guess it depends on ones preferences. So many different ways to speak in the English language. just consider it as an accent. People speaks different accents and slangs. and the ASL, SEE, PSE. are all different but yet one can understand what they are saying.

It doesn't bother me either. I have talked to people that signs different ways and methods. Just respect their choices of language. I know some ASL is different in the northern part of the US from the southern. Just as the accents are.

Yes, certain signs will vary from region to region just as spoken dialects will vary from region to region. And if I am having a conversation with a deaf individual who prefers an English syntax, I will sign in English syntax. If I am having a conversation with a deaf individual who prefers an ASL syntax, I willsign using an ASL syntax. But SEE doesn't change just the syntax, it fundamentally changes the language. For instance, finger spelling -ed on the end of a sign to signify past tense. In a visual language, past tense is conveyed either through context or through time markers. The same with plurals. A plural in a signed language is conveyed either through context or by repeating the sign. However, while repeating "tree, tree, tree" makes sense in a visual medium, one does not say "tree, tree, tree" when speaking, but simply pronounces the "s" on the end of the word. These are the differences that make ASL a language separate from English, and not simply another mode of English, and are the very criteria that were used by Stokoe is his research on ASL that led to it being designated a true language.

Babyblue · 01-30-2008, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Yes, certain signs will vary from region to region just as spoken dialects will vary from region to region. And if I am having a conversation with a deaf individual who prefers an English syntax, I will sign in English syntax. If I am having a conversation with a deaf individual who prefers an ASL syntax, I willsign using an ASL syntax. But SEE doesn't change just the syntax, it fundamentally changes the language. For instance, finger spelling -ed on the end of a sign to signify past tense. In a visual language, past tense is conveyed either through context or through time markers. The same with plurals. A plural in a signed language is conveyed either through context or by repeating the sign. However, while repeating "tree, tree, tree" makes sense in a visual medium, one does not say "tree, tree, tree" when speaking, but simply pronounces the "s" on the end of the word. These are the differences that make ASL a language separate from English, and not simply another mode of English, and are the very criteria that were used by Stokoe is his research on ASL that led to it being designated a true language.

I understand that but the _ings and -ed has a tendency to throw some people off that are not familiar with SEE. So in a sense it is a different Language. SEE is English when ASL is considered "Broken English"

jillio · 01-30-2008, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babyblue

I understand that but the _ings and -ed has a tendency to throw some people off that are not familiar with SEE. So in a sense it is a different Language. SEE is English when ASL is considered "Broken English"

I agree...it is the word endings and the initialized signs that do throw people off and create an artificial feel to SEE. ASL is not considered "broken English". ASL is not English at all. I think maybe you meant "PSE", as PSE resembles the "broken English" spoken by some new learners of Englsih.

Here would be the difference:

English: Today I planted 2 trees in my yard.

SEE: Now+day, me sign initialized with "i", plant+fingerspelled ed, number sign 2, tree+fingerspelled "s" in, my, land initialized with "y".

PSE: Now+day, plant 2 tree yard.

ASL: Now+day, land, tree (tree repeat) plant.

Silentwolfdog · 01-30-2008, 11:09 PM

I know some of SEE signs, I guess I probably used it when I was younger but ended up using PSE instead. Dunno, the background of my sign language is not very clear...all I know is that it was not ASL, that's it.

jillio · 01-30-2008, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silentwolfdog

I know some of SEE signs, I guess I probably used it when I was younger but ended up using PSE instead. Dunno, the background of my sign language is not very clear...all I know is that it was not ASL, that's it.

I know many PSE users that will use some of the initialized signs from SEE, but I haven't run into any that use all of the word endings and such.

Babyblue · 01-30-2008, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

I agree...it is the word endings and the initialized signs that do throw people off and create an artificial feel to SEE. ASL is not considered "broken English". ASL is not English at all. I think maybe you meant "PSE", as PSE resembles the "broken English" spoken by some new learners of Englsih.

Here would be the difference:

English: Today I planted 2 trees in my yard.

SEE: Now+day, me sign initialized with "i", plant+fingerspelled ed, number sign 2, tree+fingerspelled "s" in, my, land initialized with "y".

PSE: Now+day, plant 2 tree yard.

ASL: Now+day, land, tree (tree repeat) plant.

In PSE or ASL it is not always signed in that order......that you have posted. Depends on who is signing..

jillio · 01-30-2008, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babyblue

In PSE or ASL it is not always signed in that order......that you have posted. Depends on who is signing..

PSE syntax will vary depending upon both the signer and the receiver, but if one is signing ASL according to the syntactical and grammatical rules of ASL, they will conform to those rules. PSE is a pidgin language, and therefore does not conform to English or to ASL, the two languages on which it is based. Just as there are rules regarding the use of grammar and syntax for English, or Spanish, or French, there are rules regarding the use of grammar and syntax for ASL. The consistency of those rules in usage is one of the foundation criteria of it being a separate language, and what Stokoe spend to much time studying in order to have ASL identified as a separate and complete langauge.

Babyblue · 01-30-2008, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

PSE syntax will vary depending upon both the signer and the receiver, but if one is signing ASL according to the syntactical and grammatical rules of ASL, they will conform to those rules. PSE is a pidgin language, and therefore does not conform to English or to ASL, the two languages on which it is based. Just as there are rules regarding the use of grammar and syntax for English, or Spanish, or French, there are rules regarding the use of grammar and syntax for ASL. The consistency of those rules in usage is one of the foundation criteria of it being a separate language, and what Stokoe spend to much time studying in order to have ASL identified as a separate and complete langauge.

I understand that but their are different ways of doing ASL not just one.

subject-verb-object= I love apple pie

subject-verb-object-subject= I love apple pie I

object-subject-verb= Apple pie I love

verb-object-subject= love apple pie I

object-verb-subject= apple pie love I

Just saying depends on who you are talking to......

Resources came from http://daphne.palomar.edu/kstruxness...les%201-06.pdf

Silentwolfdog · 01-30-2008, 11:44 PM

Hmm, I know sometimes I will use "ing", "ly", or "ful" by accident. I think it depends on my mood I am at that day, lol. Like being shocked, I would sign "real" then "ly?" together.

I know signs for "to," "then," "so," "I," "he" and so on.

It's interesting that I know many of SEE signs but never really used it nowadays. It's too much of chore for me. I can see why ASL is better for many especially if you have to use hands to communicate.

So to me SEE does not really help with my English because I just ended up cutting it out of my sentences. As result of that I became PSE, one without a native language.

jillio · 01-31-2008, 12:10 AM

http://www.bu.edu/asllrp/asllrpr12.pdf

Not to get into a detailed discusssion on linguistics, but this link explains it very well. While you might find the same concepts used in different order, the different order will change the semantics, and therefore, the English interpretation.

jillio · 01-31-2008, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silentwolfdog

Hmm, I know sometimes I will use "ing", "ly", or "ful" by accident. I think it depends on my mood I am at that day, lol. Like being shocked, I would sign "real" then "ly?" together.

I know signs for "to," "then," "so," "I," "he" and so on.

It's interesting that I know many of SEE signs but never really used it nowadays. It's too much of chore for me. I can see why ASL is better for many especially if you have to use hands to communicate.

So to me SEE does not really help with my English because I just ended up cutting it out of my sentences. As result of that I became PSE, one without a native language.

That's a very interesting way to put that. I like it!

Silentwolfdog · 01-31-2008, 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

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That's a very interesting way to put that. I like it!

Heh, thanks.

Yeah, that's what I was told and heck that's how I feel as well. But thankfully, I think I am well off in comparison to many who used PSE in area where I lived.

I think one of my goal is to learn all grammar rules of ASL and at least improve my English some more. So that someday, I can use both fluently.

It's never too late to learn right?

I would like to be able to listen to ASL user without getting a headache, lol.

jillio · 01-31-2008, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silentwolfdog

Heh, thanks.

Yeah, that's what I was told and heck that's how I feel as well. But thankfully, I think I am well off in comparison to many who used PSE in area where I lived.

I think one of my goal is to learn all grammar rules of ASL and at least improve my English some more. So that someday, I can use both fluently.

It's never too late to learn right?

I would like to be able to listen to ASL user without getting a headache, lol.

Nope, it is never too late to learn! I agree that PSE can interfere with the elarning of proper grammar and syntax for both English and ASL because a kid doesn't get a good model of either language.

You know, I have been signing for over 20 years, and still, every now and then, a native signer will correct my grammar. That's because even though I am fluent, and have even been mistaken for deaf, it is my second language. ASL is a rich and complicated language, and it doesn't follow the rules that spoken languages follow. There are very good reasons for this, but that's another topic, lol!

You write very well...you are clear and concise, and I can see that you have a good foundation in English. Just keep learning, if that is your goal. Learning is not a goal or a destination. It is a life long journey!

shel90 · 01-31-2008, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Nope, it is never too late to learn! I agree that PSE can interfere with the elarning of proper grammar and syntax for both English and ASL because a kid doesn't get a good model of either language.

You know, I have been signing for over 20 years, and still, every now and then, a native signer will correct my grammar. That's because even though I am fluent, and have even been mistaken for deaf, it is my second language. ASL is a rich and complicated language, and it doesn't follow the rules that spoken languages follow. There are very good reasons for this, but that's another topic, lol!

You write very well...you are clear and concise, and I can see that you have a good foundation in English. Just keep learning, if that is your goal. Learning is not a goal or a destination. It is a life long journey!

ASL is a rich and complicated language and so is English. For deaf or hearing people to be fluent in both is just awesome.

Angel · 01-31-2008, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by webexplorer

Yeah, I don't see a problem with the SEE. My hearing sister uses SEE. I have nothing to against any type of sign languages.

Me 2.

jillio · 01-31-2008, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

ASL is a rich and complicated language and so is English. For deaf or hearing people to be fluent in both is just awesome.

So true.

01-30-2008, 02:19 PM	#3 (permalink)
Cheri Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,075	Why would you think that SEE usage was supposed to be decreasing, not increasing? There's nothing wrong with SEE signs. I use it and I would continue to use it. __________________

01-30-2008, 11:09 PM	#14 (permalink)
Silentwolfdog a toku fangirl Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Earth Posts: 705	I know some of SEE signs, I guess I probably used it when I was younger but ended up using PSE instead. Dunno, the background of my sign language is not very clear...all I know is that it was not ASL, that's it. __________________ If you are using red or blue font, there's a good chance that I am not reading your posts due to it being blended into background! I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night. ~Sarah William Check my art at http://silentwolfdog.deviantart.com

01-30-2008, 11:44 PM	#19 (permalink)
Silentwolfdog a toku fangirl Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Earth Posts: 705	Hmm, I know sometimes I will use "ing", "ly", or "ful" by accident. I think it depends on my mood I am at that day, lol. Like being shocked, I would sign "real" then "ly?" together. I know signs for "to," "then," "so," "I," "he" and so on. It's interesting that I know many of SEE signs but never really used it nowadays. It's too much of chore for me. I can see why ASL is better for many especially if you have to use hands to communicate. So to me SEE does not really help with my English because I just ended up cutting it out of my sentences. As result of that I became PSE, one without a native language. __________________ If you are using red or blue font, there's a good chance that I am not reading your posts due to it being blended into background! I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night. ~Sarah William Check my art at http://silentwolfdog.deviantart.com

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01-30-2008, 06:03 PM	#4 (permalink)
webexplorer I'm listening to everyone Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: New England Posts: 3,474	Yeah, I don't see a problem with the SEE. My hearing sister uses SEE. I have nothing to against any type of sign languages.

01-30-2008, 06:38 PM	#5 (permalink)
RedFox Registered User Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Bellows Falls, VT Posts: 1,195	I've seen the ed signed as a d being thrown over the shoulder as in past. For ness, it's n moving downwards against a flat vertical hand.

01-30-2008, 06:40 PM	#6 (permalink)
InnocentOdion HOH and learnin' sign! Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: England, United Kingdom Posts: 180	jilio, what do you mean "False"? To which part? I've heard SEE is decreasing on various anti-SEE or pro-ASL only websites. Am I wrong that it's decreasing? I don't have any problem with people using SEE, but I wouldn't learn it as it's a lot more work to have sign English and to have to sign every single word when they aren't needed, and ASL is far more popular, so if any other sign language I'd learn ASL (I'm a native Briton so I study BSL). I like dropping things which aren't needed during the conversation, as well as having two signs for "happy" and "merry" when one is enough. However, a few signs are always useful to know, which is why I was curious as to a couple of them. It does seem like it could be a lot harder to sign sentences in, though maybe it's because I'm used to dropping "to" and "ing" and stuff.

01-30-2008, 08:28 PM	#8 (permalink)
Babyblue Registered User Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 1,571	I guess it depends on ones preferences. So many different ways to speak in the English language. just consider it as an accent. People speaks different accents and slangs. and the ASL, SEE, PSE. are all different but yet one can understand what they are saying. It doesn't bother me either. I have talked to people that signs different ways and methods. Just respect their choices of language. I know some ASL is different in the northern part of the US from the southern. Just as the accents are.

01-31-2008, 12:10 AM	#20 (permalink)
jillio Banned Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 21,197	http://www.bu.edu/asllrp/asllrpr12.pdf Not to get into a detailed discusssion on linguistics, but this link explains it very well. While you might find the same concepts used in different order, the different order will change the semantics, and therefore, the English interpretation.