ASL, SEE, PSE, etc. - Page 2

restless_heart · 12-29-2007, 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

In these cases, restless heart, it is not ASL that is to blame, but the teachers that refused to teach these students English skills.

That is right. I do not know how things are today and I am learning ASL. I felt it was just the teacher back then, I am talking about 20 years ago, they do not know what they were doing, in fact the teacher was lazy. (We lived in a very very small town and hard to find a better school like Pennsylvaina School for the Deaf, etc...) They all knew that, but they felt all was too late. They felt they should learn English before learning ASL because they missed out so much in life. They got all mixed up from learning SEE in the first place, then when we went junior high, we went downhill and went back to Kintergarten level all over again...but in btwn, we learned very little ASL, I ignored ASL or SEE and I could hear the teacher instead of understanding ASL or SEE. I do not know why. I had to fight my rights to keep SEE and keep learning English up to date. It was one reason my mom removed me and transfer me to hearing school. I am only letting you know how my friends feel. They were old classmates of mine, I have seen it all before I left to another school. I know ASL has nothing to do with it, but just the teacher we had. I am getting some points now about PSE and ASL. It is the way things are handle today's world. Maybe we are an old fashioned and felt differently, I don't know.

flip · 12-29-2007, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by restless_heart

I had a sereval friends had trouble understanding English, they felt ASL was the blame for not learning English. I didn't know what to say but I felt it may be true because the teacher refused to teach them higher education just because she felt that they were not 'ready' for English skills. I felt they should learn English before everything else. One couldn't drive because she had failed the test so many time, she didn't understand the booklet. They won't let interupter to come to help her with the test. Other is embrassed that everyone made fun of her because of her poor English, even her children that they had to control over her. That is why we are going to take English class, I want to be with her and help her through it.

From what I have seen, the classes with mediocre or low results in english often have teachers who themselves have very little undertanding of ASL. Children suffers because they face obstacles when trying to converse as a group, becacuse the teacher do not understand what they say to each other and can use it to gain knowledge in students. Also questions from students are more often misapprehended and more time is used to learn less when the teacher uses PSE or SEE.

flip · 12-29-2007, 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheri

They complain about my SEE signs too, even said it was much slower than ASL. I asked them would you rather me to sign or use my voice? They shut up.

Clever reply!

Kaitin · 12-29-2007, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheri

Oh!! Are you talking about finger spelling the small letter words?

I don't fingerspell "the" "me" "is" "are" "will" "be" I sign the whole sentence, no finger spells.

Probably I should stop talking about my roommate so I don't embarass her. But some hearing people I know spell word endings like "i-n-g", but I've seen some sign with a sweeping "i" for this. Some spell "y-o-u"

Most who do these sign "the" "is" "are" etc unless they are learning and don't know the signs - then they use a few signs and a lot of spelling.

So Cheri, another question (sorry!

) Do you sign "you" "me" "him" etc and not point?

Kaitin · 12-29-2007, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

One of the reasons that SEE can be so confusing from a receptive standpoint is that the eye and the ear are designed to receive information differently. The eye receives information in a spatial and time-oriented way, therefore, the syntax of ASL is arranged to provide information in a way that is specialized for the visual system. The ear is designed to receive information in a linear sequence, and the syntax of spoken English is arranged to provide information in way that is compatible with the auditory system. When you provide visual information in an auditory sequence (signs in English syntax and using English grammar rules) it is very confusing for the brain.

Very interesting, Jillio!

!

jillio · 12-29-2007, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaitin

Very interesting, Jillio!

!

As always, you are quite welcome.

Babyblue · 12-29-2007, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaitin

Very interesting, Jillio!

!

Yes it is.... ASL is a beautiful language with more body language and facial expressions. when signing SEE and PSE is more of just signing with hands and proper grammar. Which would make it harder for a person to understand what they are saying. I personally Sign PSE and ASL and I find that I get more results by signing ASL with my Deaf friends understanding. To me ASL is more fun to sign because it allows more expressions and exaggerations to the signs. PSE and SEE is more complex and you have to think more to sign with your hands, Also with PSE and SEE it is harder to read due to more hand movements that doesn't allow the person sign as efficiently for others to understand.

Cheri · 12-29-2007, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaitin

So Cheri, another question (sorry!

) Do you sign "you" "me" "him" etc and not point?

Yes, I signed "you" as pointing my finger at you, and I sign "me" as pointing my finger to my chest, I sign "him" as the same similar sign as you would sign "man" "boy", there's some pointing as for "you" and "me".

Cheri · 12-29-2007, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by restless_heart

I don't see anything wrong with SEE, they have said the same thing that it is Loooong and takes forever to finish one sentence than ASL. I told them well if they want to use ASL that is their choice, but to me, I felt it is lazy that they don't learn English. Am I wrong??? How will someone learn English if they don't learn SEE, like taking a driver's test, filling out their parents' form if they are dying in the hospital, etc... I rather use SEE because I am comfortable with it whether they like it or not. They said fingerspelling is pain in you know where, but what am I supposed to do about it, it was the way I was taught.

That's right, it's the way you were taught. I've seen many different people from other states that uses different signs, It's fun to learn from other people as they can learn from you. Take Liebling for an example, she's from Germany, and I learned a few signs of hers, and she also learns our signs too. This is just the fun part of it. I can't stand complainers, I don't complain about their signs, I expect the same respect in return.

jillio · 12-29-2007, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheri

Yes, I signed "you" as pointing my finger at you, and I sign "me" as pointing my finger to my chest, I sign "him" as the same similar sign as you would sign "man" "boy", there's some pointing as for "you" and "me".

Now I've got a question.......do you sign him by signing "boy" or "man" and then pointing toward where you have placed that person? Like if I fingerspelled "Cheri" and placed you on my right, and I wanted to refer to you again, and would sign "girl" and point to my right where I had placed you?

Reba · 12-29-2007, 10:35 PM

When I use SEE in an educational setting, I use the initialized signs and endings for "him, her, them, -ing, -ed, -s, -'s, I, we, us, have, had, has, was, is, be, will, were, are, his, its, the, a, an, of, he, she, it," etc. I also use initialized versions of ASL signs, English word order, and more "mouthing". I sometimes include the punctuation signs for commas, colons, semi-colons, periods, exclamations, and question marks.

jillio · 12-29-2007, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

When I use SEE in an educational setting, I use the initialized signs and endings for "him, her, them, -ing, -ed, -s, -'s, I, we, us, have, had, has, was, is, be, will, were, are, his, its, the, a, an, of, he, she, it," etc. I also use initialized versions of ASL signs, English word order, and more "mouthing". I sometimes include the punctuation signs for commas, colons, semi-colons, periods, exclamations, and question marks.

Yeah, that's the way I learned SEE as well. The sign for "him"placed where "boy" would be but made with an "m" hand, the sign for "her" place at the chin where "girl would be but made with an "r" hand, "have" with a "v" hand, "had" with a "d" hand, and "has" with an "s" hand, etc.

Reba · 12-29-2007, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Yeah, that's the way I learned SEE as well. The sign for "him"placed where "boy" would be but made with an "m" hand, the sign for "her" place at the chin where "girl would be but made with an "r" hand, "have" with a "v" hand, "had" with a "d" hand, and "has" with an "s" hand, etc.

Yes.

InnocentOdion · 12-30-2007, 04:53 PM

SEE sounds good on paper and like it has the right intentions, but it doesn't take much of a genius to work out it just doesn't work well in theory.

jillio · 12-30-2007, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InnocentOdion

SEE sounds good on paper and like it has the right intentions, but it doesn't take much of a genius to work out it just doesn't work well in theory.

And trying to practice it is even worse!

InnocentOdion · 12-31-2007, 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

And trying to practice it is even worse!

Haha.

I actually tried to see if I could pull up a website on 'Learn SEE, the basics'. Guess what? I couldn't find one.

Berry · 12-31-2007, 10:35 AM

SEE is not the worst idea to come around the Cape, but it has to be one of the poorest implimented. That is because it was done for deaf people and not with deaf people and it was done by people who had no respect for ASL.

What is needed is a bridge language between ASL and English that is easily crossed by both deaf and hearing -- SEE is not it. Back when I was still pretty good at ASL I met a deaf girl who knew only SEE and I could not communicate with her. She signed "my nose was running" using the same sign as "John run" rather than ASL "nose flow" which uses the same sign as "blood flowing."

In ASL a nose can't run, it flows, but in SEE it does. Then SEE invented signs, who knows why, and then insisted on initializing petty differences that did were not needed.

Morning eat with an added ending would have worked much better than initializing "eat" into 'b' breakfast.

Turning the "true - is" sign into the initialized mess of "is, am, are, be," etc is enough to drive anybody crazy -- You don't really need all that in English let alone sign language.

It is too bad really that something good didn't come out of the whole idea.

Cheri · 12-31-2007, 10:51 AM

You've proven my point, Berry, What is it with you, ASLers who have that right to mock SEE signs, just because you do not understand our signs. Both basic signs for words are the same with only a few exceptions, however SEE is a sign executed for every word in a sentence, and ASL does not. What's so great about SEE signs that you could sing and sign, You can talk and sign the same time while you cannot do that with ASL.

Casperman · 12-31-2007, 11:34 AM

i use asl or pse among my deaf family and deaf peers. but i also use gestures around some of my deaf relatives or hearing relatives.. some of deaf relatives didnt go school etc...
now i see in my boys.. they use pse/asl at school too..but same time can write a good sentence..

shel90 · 12-31-2007, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheri

You've proven my point, Berry, What is it with you, ASLers who have that right to mock SEE signs, just because you do not understand our signs. Both basic signs for words are the same with only a few exceptions, however SEE is a sign executed for every word in a sentence, and ASL does not. What's so great about SEE signs that you could sing and sign, You can talk and sign the same time while you cannot do that with ASL.

Not to disrespect you, Cheri...

To be honest with u. One can sign with a song using ASL. I have seen it. Matter of fact, I understand it in ASL than in SEE.

By talking and signing at the same time, one language becomes compromised. It is like trying to talk Spanish and English at the same time.

jillio · 12-31-2007, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Not to disrespect you, Cheri...

To be honest with u. One can sign with a song using ASL. I have seen it. Matter of fact, I understand it in ASL than in SEE.

By talking and signing at the same time, one language becomes compromised. It is like trying to talk Spanish and English at the same time.

Yes, I am not putting down SEE users at all. That is what they were taught. But sim com does produces a confusing linguitic environment for a deaf child, and both languages suffer.

No disrespect intended, Cheri.

Cheri · 12-31-2007, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

By talking and signing at the same time, one language becomes compromised. It is like trying to talk Spanish and English at the same time.

I'm sorry but I disagree with you there, Shel. I use my voice everytime I sign.

deafskeptic · 12-31-2007, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheri

I'm sorry but I disagree with you there, Shel. I use my voice everytime I sign.

I'm afraid Shel and others are right on this one.

I notice that when I use my voice, my signing will suffer. I never use the English pronouns, ings, ed or ly as it's hard for other deaf and it's cumbersome for me. I try to use ASL as much as possible but I often end up signing in PSE because I'm very English.

shel90 · 12-31-2007, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheri

I'm sorry but I disagree with you there, Shel. I use my voice everytime I sign.

When I first starting learning ASL, I used my voice when signing until my brother told me that it wasnt ASL that I was signing. At that time, many deaf people struggled to communicate with me and I asked my brother why. He told me to turn my voice off...since then my signing has been much more fluent and made more sense to many Deaf people. As a teacher, I have to be fluent in ASL for my students. I thank my brother for making me realize that by using my voice, my ASL suffers.

However, if you are comfortable signing and talking at the same time, nothing wrong with that. I wanted to be fluent in ASL both expressively and receptively.

Cheri · 12-31-2007, 03:25 PM

You guys are talking about ASL I'm talking about SEE. I know with ASL it's impossible to talk and use ASL the same time, But, with SEE you can.

shel90 · 12-31-2007, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheri

You guys are talking about ASL I'm talking about SEE. I know with ASL it's impossible to talk and use ASL the same time, But, with SEE you can.

True. I have tried doing SEE ..I just cant do it. When I start signing, the ASL part of my brain takes over automatically. It is weird.

When I sign to my husband and he doesnt understand my signs, I use my voice but without realizing, I drop the signs and just use spoken English. I have tried to keep on signing while talking but I find myself doing either ASL or just spoken English.

Does it take a lot of effort for u to sign and talk at the same time or is it natural to you?

12-31-2007, 10:51 AM	#48 (permalink)
Cheri Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,076	You've proven my point, Berry, What is it with you, ASLers who have that right to mock SEE signs, just because you do not understand our signs. Both basic signs for words are the same with only a few exceptions, however SEE is a sign executed for every word in a sentence, and ASL does not. What's so great about SEE signs that you could sing and sign, You can talk and sign the same time while you cannot do that with ASL. __________________

12-31-2007, 11:34 AM	#49 (permalink)
Casperman Proud Dada of an Autistic Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: state of fast horses, fast ladies and hillbilly drunkards Posts: 411	i use asl or pse among my deaf family and deaf peers. but i also use gestures around some of my deaf relatives or hearing relatives.. some of deaf relatives didnt go school etc... now i see in my boys.. they use pse/asl at school too..but same time can write a good sentence.. __________________

12-31-2007, 03:25 PM	#55 (permalink)
Cheri Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,076	You guys are talking about ASL I'm talking about SEE. I know with ASL it's impossible to talk and use ASL the same time, But, with SEE you can. __________________

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12-29-2007, 10:35 PM	#41 (permalink)
Reba Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 17,288	When I use SEE in an educational setting, I use the initialized signs and endings for "him, her, them, -ing, -ed, -s, -'s, I, we, us, have, had, has, was, is, be, will, were, are, his, its, the, a, an, of, he, she, it," etc. I also use initialized versions of ASL signs, English word order, and more "mouthing". I sometimes include the punctuation signs for commas, colons, semi-colons, periods, exclamations, and question marks.

12-30-2007, 04:53 PM	#44 (permalink)
InnocentOdion HOH and learnin' sign! Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: England, United Kingdom Posts: 180	SEE sounds good on paper and like it has the right intentions, but it doesn't take much of a genius to work out it just doesn't work well in theory.

12-31-2007, 10:35 AM	#47 (permalink)
Berry Registered User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Oroville, Ca. Posts: 137	SEE is not the worst idea to come around the Cape, but it has to be one of the poorest implimented. That is because it was done for deaf people and not with deaf people and it was done by people who had no respect for ASL. What is needed is a bridge language between ASL and English that is easily crossed by both deaf and hearing -- SEE is not it. Back when I was still pretty good at ASL I met a deaf girl who knew only SEE and I could not communicate with her. She signed "my nose was running" using the same sign as "John run" rather than ASL "nose flow" which uses the same sign as "blood flowing." In ASL a nose can't run, it flows, but in SEE it does. Then SEE invented signs, who knows why, and then insisted on initializing petty differences that did were not needed. Morning eat with an added ending would have worked much better than initializing "eat" into 'b' breakfast. Turning the "true - is" sign into the initialized mess of "is, am, are, be," etc is enough to drive anybody crazy -- You don't really need all that in English let alone sign language. It is too bad really that something good didn't come out of the whole idea.