Is ASL Fading Away or Not? - Page 5

Cloggy · 12-24-2007, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

How is that counterproductive? It is an illustration of experiencing, in reverse, what the deaf individual who has been unable to develop oral skills experiences every day of their life. That isn't counter-productive at all. In fact, culture shock is a well accepted technique for increasing understanding and empathy.

Nah, it is intended as an insult.... {Mod Edit: Unnecessary comment removed--~RR}

Otherwise, you would have put that "explanation" in there straight away!

Cloggy · 12-24-2007, 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

And the use of ASL is on the rise, not the decline.

Dependence on ASL is on the decline.

Cloggy · 12-24-2007, 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banjo

Cloggy,

It's a wonder why people would listen to you after all that conspiracy theories you spew out about 9/11 and that it was an insider job. You tried to say it was true.

.

You mean... they found the "plane" that hit the pentagon?
The buildings did not fall down in free-fall speed, which can only happen due to controlled demolition,
Building 7 did not fall without being hit by a plane??
And there are other structures in the world that have collapsed due to fir... before and since??
The pilot that shot down the plane did not get a medal??

But great idea to start off with that. Since it shows that you have no capability to think for yourself. Just swallowing the opinion that is forced upon you by others.. .

Otherwise...
Well-written post... many unfounded accusations, "speaking for everyone" stuff ....
I didn't agree with any of it, but I guess you are not surprised about that....

Anyway... Being the hearing parent of a deaf girl that can hear because of CI... there I'm the expert...
Never claimed anything else....

Cloggy · 12-24-2007, 03:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luv2Chat

OMG, i cant believe what i am reading at this sight. I've been checking out this sight for some time now trying to get some more info on deaf culture. I have a 7 year old child who is deaf and wears a ci. I figured she is old enough now to understand when we talk about different cultures. One thing i must say is this is absolutely NOT the place to get any info regarding deaf culture. Statements that are made like the one above make me just shake my head. I am hearing and my child is deaf BUT if you think you know my child better then me because you are deaf, then i'm sorry but you are sadly mistaken. This is not the 1970's where parents had no access to info as easy as we do now or where parents were ashamed if their child had a disability. Times have changed and so has technology. Of course you guys had it rough growing up, technology back then sucked and most relied on lip reading and just got frustrated, well whether you want to believe it or not times have changed. You talk about hearing parents have not walked a mile in a deaf persons shoe...well guess what you have not walked a mile in my shoe either and infact nor have you walked in my childs either whether you want to believe it or not. Nobody knows another persons child more then the parent and for you to believe that is insane. Just becase you expeirenced a rough childhood does not mean every deaf child will. Their may be a few bad apples out there but don't generalize all hearing parents who do not agree with you because if that's the case then i really don't need to look into the deaf culture any more based on what i am seeing here. Heres some advise for you, treat people the way oyu want to be treated

Sorry you had to witness that,
Still, there is good information on AllDeaf.... but not in this thread...

Angel · 12-24-2007, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloggy

Anyway... Being the hearing parent of a deaf girl that can hear because of CI... there I'm the expert......

Did you meant to say you built a cochlear implant device for your daughter so she could hear, so that makes you an expert?.

It's hard to understand what people are trying to say these days.

Yiffzer · 12-24-2007, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloggy

You mean... they found the "plane" that hit the pentagon?
The buildings did not fall down in free-fall speed, which can only happen due to controlled demolition,
Building 7 did not fall without being hit by a plane??
And there are other structures in the world that have collapsed due to fir... before and since??
The pilot that shot down the plane did not get a medal??

But great idea to start off with that. Since it shows that you have no capability to think for yourself. Just swallowing the opinion that is forced upon you by others.. .

what a joke. you're using the same old rehashed arguments those conspiracists are using. those arguments have been proven wrong and refuted time and time again.

however a lot of people agree that the official report from the government was inaccurate and opinions have claimed that the government was merely trying to cover up it's ineptness in this situation.

don't be lame. don't sit on a half-truth. go further.

/offtopic

btw, what's all this controversy about asl fading or not? honestly, who cares? that's the point of language, is it not? as jillio said, language is constantly evolving to fit the needs of people at the moment. to be honest, arguing about whether you should learn asl, see, oralism, cued-speech, or any other types is a moot point. what matters is how you learn them and make them beneficial to yourself. no one language method really slows you down in the development of english (except asl maybe ;o). just stop whining about asl's existence. if it dies out, then it was meant to be.

Cloggy · 12-24-2007, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yiffzer

what a joke. you're using the same old rehashed arguments those conspiracists are using. those arguments have been proven wrong and refuted time and time again.

however a lot of people agree that the official report from the government was inaccurate and opinions have claimed that the government was merely trying to cover up it's ineptness in this situation.

don't be lame. don't sit on a half-truth. go further.

/offtopic

......

Yeh Yeh Yeh, let's talk about that in another thread... if you want....

Cloggy · 12-24-2007, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angel

Did you meant to say you built a cochlear implant device for your daughter so she could hear, so that makes you an expert?.

It's hard to understand what people are trying to say these days.

No, have you??? What are you trying to say?

shel90 · 12-24-2007, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yiffzer

what a joke. you're using the same old rehashed arguments those conspiracists are using. those arguments have been proven wrong and refuted time and time again.

however a lot of people agree that the official report from the government was inaccurate and opinions have claimed that the government was merely trying to cover up it's ineptness in this situation.

don't be lame. don't sit on a half-truth. go further.

/offtopic

btw, what's all this controversy about asl fading or not? honestly, who cares? that's the point of language, is it not? as jillio said, language is constantly evolving to fit the needs of people at the moment. to be honest, arguing about whether you should learn asl, see, oralism, cued-speech, or any other types is a moot point. what matters is how you learn them and make them beneficial to yourself. no one language method really slows you down in the development of english (except asl maybe ;o). just stop whining about asl's existence. if it dies out, then it was meant to be.

ASL slows down the development English? Interesting when it is the deaf children of deaf families that have the higher literacy rates in English. Guess something doesnt make sense here, hmmm?

It matters cuz to this day, many deaf children are becoming delayed in literacy and language due to not having a full acess to language. That is what people should care about..if people dont, then their choice.

jillio · 12-24-2007, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloggy

Yes, I read that.... with Cued-Speech -signing at the very top !!!

Cued speech is not signing. Your comment is entirely incorrect.

Cloggy · 12-24-2007, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Cued speech is not signing. Your comment is entirely incorrect.

You're right, they are hand gestures....
I stand corrected.... correction.... "With Cued Speech at the top..."

---

{Mod Edit: Unnecessary comment removed--~RR}

jillio · 12-24-2007, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloggy

Dependence on ASL is on the decline.

Again, totally innaccurate. Especially givent he number of CI users that are still dependent upon ASL for day to day and educational communication. Inf act, the fact that many areas are encountering a shortage of interpreters indicates that the demand for interpretation is high. If the number of individuals dependent upon ASL was in decline, the demand for terps would also be decreasing. You have totally departed from logic in an attempt to recoup your losses, cloggy.

jillio · 12-24-2007, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloggy

You're right, they are hand gestures....
I stand corrected.... correction.... "With Cued Speech at the top..."

---

[b]{Mod Edit: Previous comment and smilie emoticon was removed--~RR}

And again, your statement is false. What happened to your quest to provide accurate information, cloggy? {Mod Edit: Comment related to previous edited quote removed--~RR}

Yiffzer · 12-24-2007, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

ASL slows down the development English? Interesting when it is the deaf children of deaf families that have the higher literacy rates in English. Guess something doesnt make sense here, hmmm?

higher literacy rates in english in what area? compared to what/who? where are the studies that say this? then again, i'm afraid it might be biased.

i say this because literally all deaf kids with deaf parents i've met plainly sucked in english. maybe i have a high standard of expectations when it comes to english or maybe you're working with a different definition of "high literacy rate".

if daily observation contradicts a study (or studies), then something is wrong here.

jillio · 12-24-2007, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloggy

You mean... they found the "plane" that hit the pentagon?
The buildings did not fall down in free-fall speed, which can only happen due to controlled demolition,
Building 7 did not fall without being hit by a plane??
And there are other structures in the world that have collapsed due to fir... before and since??
The pilot that shot down the plane did not get a medal??

But great idea to start off with that. Since it shows that you have no capability to think for yourself. Just swallowing the opinion that is forced upon you by others.. .

Otherwise...
Well-written post... many unfounded accusations, "speaking for everyone" stuff ....
I didn't agree with any of it, but I guess you are not surprised about that....

Anyway... Being the hearing parent of a deaf girl that can hear because of CI... there I'm the expert...
Never claimed anything else....

It takes more than 4 years of parenting a deaf child to develop expertise, cloggy. Simply having 4 short years of experience with one child hardly qualifies you as an expert in anything, {Mod Edit: unnecessary comment removed--~RR}.

jillio · 12-24-2007, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloggy

Sorry you had to witness that,
Still, there is good information on AllDeaf.... but not in this thread...

There is excellent information in this thread, as well as other threads in AD. It just isn't found in your posts.

jillio · 12-24-2007, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloggy

No, have you??? What are you trying to say?

She is trying to say that you are not an expert, cloggy. And that you have departed so far from any logical thinking, that no one can follow your thinking.

jillio · 12-24-2007, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yiffzer

higher literacy rates in english in what area? compared to what/who? where are the studies that say this? then again, i'm afraid it might be biased.

i say this because literally all deaf kids with deaf parents i've met plainly sucked in english. maybe i have a high standard of expectations when it comes to english or maybe you're working with a different definition of "high literacy rate".

if daily observation contradicts a study (or studies), then something is wrong here.

Studies and observations have been consistent over time, both int he field of education and psychology. Shel's statement is supported overwhelmingly. Your observations are not sufficient to contradict that which has been supported consistently over any number of years and with any number of participants.

Yiffzer · 12-24-2007, 10:19 AM

links please?

i wouldn't dismiss my observations just yet. i've been observing deaf students' use of english (around high school 'til college) for so many years. i see the same pattern. most of them just suck in english. no "studies" will change my mind on this.

but i'm not dismissing that there are deaf students who are sufficient or brilliant with their english. i've met some of those people and i often feel intimidated around them. ;D

i haven't been around the forums that much to notice you or shel's posts regarding the asl-english link, so i apologize for that.

jillio · 12-24-2007, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yiffzer

links please?

i wouldn't dismiss my observations just yet. i've been observing deaf students' use of english (around high school 'til college) for so many years. i see the same pattern. most of them just suck in english. no "studies" will change my mind on this.

but i'm not dismissing that there are deaf students who are sufficient or brilliant with their english. i've met some of those people and i often feel intimidated around them. ;D

i haven't been around the forums that much to notice you or shel's posts regarding the asl-english link, so i apologize for that.

I am not dismissing your observations at all. I am simply saying that the empirical evidence gathered over the past 50 years supports shel's statement that deaf of deaf perform at a higher level academically that do deaf of hearing, and in particular, deaf of hearing with late or no exposure to sign. Your observations hardly equate with a controlled scientific study that accounts for variables you cannot control, and most likely do not take into consideration, with an observation. Therefore, that which has been supported empirically always carries more validity than casual observation and opinion. Many conclusions drawn from casual observation are not supportable through empirical study for that very reason.

Yiffzer · 12-24-2007, 11:55 AM

all very fine in the defense of science.

still, i'd like to see some links or references to those studies.

jillio · 12-24-2007, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yiffzer

all very fine in the defense of science.

still, i'd like to see some links or references to those studies.

You know, we've got a generation of people who want everything the easy way....do it for me. Try the Journal of Deaf Studies and Education, The American Annals of the Deaf, and numeorus texts and books out there. No one does my research for me. Its out there if you truly want to broaden your perspective.

Without science, all you have is subjective anecdote. Might be interesting, but hardly a solid foundation for setting policy.

rick48 · 12-25-2007, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

It takes more than 4 years of parenting a deaf child to develop expertise, cloggy. Simply having 4 short years of experience with one child hardly qualifies you as an expert in anything, {previous comment had been edited, removed here as well--~RR}.

This insulting attack on a member has been reported.

***LinuxGold*** · 12-25-2007, 09:02 PM

I agree with jillo's opinion -- 4 years parenting a deaf child doesn't make us an expert. I do not view this as "insulting".

flip · 12-26-2007, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

If all one does is parent a deaf child, one never becomes an expert on deafness. One must become actively involved with the deaf communicty outside the limited experience of one deaf child.

Used car salesmen, advertising, and lawyers would be 3 that come to mind.

And politicans..

Yes, expert on deafness and expert on parenting an deaf child is two vast different things.

Experiences and stories from deaf people seems to be far more mutual than the choices parents do for their children.

Roadrunner · 12-26-2007, 12:32 PM

Mod Note:

Thread's temporarily closed and under review at the moment--

~RR

Roadrunner · 12-26-2007, 12:57 PM

Mod Note:

Thread's re-opened--some posts were either edited or removed.

All the bickering/belittling...even those 'hidden' underlying insults and whatnots needs to cease. C'mon folks, no need for this--

There's several wars going on throughout our world, however, there really is no need for it in here, in Alldeaf. This is the time of year to have joy, to spread the happiness and joy of the season, in here is as good as anywhere to spread that. It's not so hard to do...simply refrain from starting anything or replying to frivolous nonsense and hold the peace.

Peace out--

~RR

rockdrummer · 12-26-2007, 02:06 PM

Sorry if this has been posted here but I just came across it.

Quote:

In Ontario, there will be over 1,000 Deaf people rallying against the
mandates that Canadian government intend to impose that will forbid Deaf
children with cochlear implants to learn ASL.

Source: Mishka Zena » Blog Archive » Protest: Deaf Children of Canada Needs Your Help!!

jillio · 12-26-2007, 02:13 PM

OMG! Forbidding to learn ASL! And yet, there are those that refuse to see that the current debates are nothing more than the repeat of the history of forced oralism on the coat tails of the cochlear implant! Technology might be moving forward, but it is obvious that thinking has regressed about 200 years.

Thanks for the link, rd.

deafskeptic · 12-26-2007, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

OMG! Forbidding to learn ASL! And yet, there are those that refuse to see that the current debates are nothing more than the repeat of the history of forced oralism on the coat tails of the cochlear implant! Technology might be moving forward, but it is obvious that thinking has regressed about 200 years.

Thanks for the link, rd.

Yeah thanks for the link, RD. Yep, things have not changed much even if technology has changed. As much as I love my CI, I don't hold with the oralist agenda that so many CI supporters have.

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12-24-2007, 10:19 AM	#139 (permalink)
Yiffzer Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 791	links please? i wouldn't dismiss my observations just yet. i've been observing deaf students' use of english (around high school 'til college) for so many years. i see the same pattern. most of them just suck in english. no "studies" will change my mind on this. but i'm not dismissing that there are deaf students who are sufficient or brilliant with their english. i've met some of those people and i often feel intimidated around them. ;D i haven't been around the forums that much to notice you or shel's posts regarding the asl-english link, so i apologize for that.

12-24-2007, 11:55 AM	#141 (permalink)
Yiffzer Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 791	all very fine in the defense of science. still, i'd like to see some links or references to those studies.

12-25-2007, 09:02 PM	#144 (permalink)
*LinuxGold* Super Moderator Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Felton, DE Posts: 1,688	I agree with jillo's opinion -- 4 years parenting a deaf child doesn't make us an expert. I do not view this as "insulting".

12-26-2007, 12:32 PM	#146 (permalink)
Roadrunner Registered User Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 7,090	Mod Note: Thread's temporarily closed and under review at the moment-- ~RR

12-26-2007, 12:57 PM	#147 (permalink)
Roadrunner Registered User Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 7,090	Mod Note: Thread's re-opened--some posts were either edited or removed. All the bickering/belittling...even those 'hidden' underlying insults and whatnots needs to cease. C'mon folks, no need for this-- There's several wars going on throughout our world, however, there really is no need for it in here, in *Alldeaf*. This is the time of year to have joy, to spread the happiness and joy of the season, in here is as good as anywhere to spread that. It's not so hard to do...simply refrain from starting anything or replying to frivolous nonsense and hold the peace. Peace out-- ~RR

12-26-2007, 02:13 PM	#149 (permalink)
jillio Banned Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 29,484	OMG! Forbidding to learn ASL! And yet, there are those that refuse to see that the current debates are nothing more than the repeat of the history of forced oralism on the coat tails of the cochlear implant! Technology might be moving forward, but it is obvious that thinking has regressed about 200 years. Thanks for the link, rd.