Non-Deaf children who sign.......

lowderra · 06-22-2006, 03:54 PM

Hi, I'm new here. I was really happy to find this forum, and I'm hoping I can glean some useful info from you guys.

I'm a nurse, and I work with special needs children. Mostly trached, mostly toddlers. Never worked with a deaf child, but many of them are unable to verbalize and end up signing.

I believe this is an emerging population, because we are now able to save children (albeit with trachs) that ordinarily would have died. So I'm not sure anyone really has a clear protocol for the best way of teaching these kids to communicate.

Anyway - I digress. I'm here about 3 children in particular.

1) child number one is nearly 3, cognitively normal, hearing child.....mute because of fused vocal cords (preemie - trauma from the intubation during long-term vent use). He uses about 13 signs now - we try to add one sign a week. We teach him at home (me, the other day nurse, and the parents) and we are all VERY invested in him learning sign and communicating his needs. We sign all day during all activities. It's not formal or anything - we just speak, and sign too. I and the parents probably know 20-30 signs and we ALL sign to him. He has just recently started stringing words together - we had to work on that for awhile - letting him mimic us, then just cuing, and finally now he does it independently. Here's the problem. We have been using the Joy of Signing. It's SEE I think. We are getting an ASL text - A Basic Course in ASL.......but should we teach both? Pick one? He'll be going to school in a year or so if he can get healthy enough - which ones do public schools use?

2) child number 2 and 3 are my kids. My daughter is one and because of me learning sign to talk to my patient.....I've ended up signing to her! She seems to focus better and "listen" more. Plus I think it would be useful for her to know. child number 3 is my next daughter, due this fall. I'd like to sign to her too. Will this just happen naturally? (my daughter is verbal and hearing) Will she learn sign better if she goes to class - maybe weekly or just a summer camp? I know many "typical" children are being taught "baby" sign - but they stop when they start to verbalize. I'd like them to learn both (to verbalize AND continue to learn sign). Again, should we focus on ASL for my girls or SEE? I don't want to get into which is "better".....I just want to know which is more widely used.

3)Last question - I plan on continuing to learn sign myself - it's just been really useful so far, plus I might get paid more if (as a nurse) I know another language! Again - ASL or SEE? Which is more widely used? Don't want to get into which is better - I'm aiming to be able to communicate with as much of the non-verbal population as possible, not win any PC awards......

Thanks in advance!

mfs781 · 06-22-2006, 04:02 PM

Not to speak for all but most of live by and use ASL. That is what is taught in state school like MSD.(Missouri) But good luck on you learning and teach.

lowderra · 06-22-2006, 04:07 PM

I think at Gaulledet (sp) in this area.....I think it's ASL.....however, I've heard that in public schools SEE is used. He's in a hearing family and I'm pretty sure they'd want him in the same school as his (hearing) sisters...so public.

My daughters will be going to public too.

Maybe I could just call the public shool and ask which they use?

gnulinuxman · 06-22-2006, 04:23 PM

Your best choice is to learn ASL and PSE. ASL is a real language, and PSE is ASL with an English word order.

PS: The opposite of deaf is hearing.

lowderra · 06-22-2006, 04:29 PM

Yeah, the title could have been better....

What does PSE stand for? With english word order ASL - that's kind of like SEE....just no "linking" (unnecessary) words like and, the, a, etc?

That's what we do now - it's like You-want-look-Barney (quizzical/questioning facial expression) instead of "do you want to watch your Barney video?"

SxyPorkie · 06-22-2006, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lowderra

Hi, I'm new here. I was really happy to find this forum, and I'm hoping I can glean some useful info from you guys.

I'm a nurse, and I work with special needs children. Mostly trached, mostly toddlers. Never worked with a deaf child, but many of them are unable to verbalize and end up signing.

I believe this is an emerging population, because we are now able to save children (albeit with trachs) that ordinarily would have died. So I'm not sure anyone really has a clear protocol for the best way of teaching these kids to communicate.

Anyway - I digress. I'm here about 3 children in particular.

1) child number one is nearly 3, cognitively normal, hearing child.....mute because of fused vocal cords (preemie - trauma from the intubation during long-term vent use). He uses about 13 signs now - we try to add one sign a week. We teach him at home (me, the other day nurse, and the parents) and we are all VERY invested in him learning sign and communicating his needs. We sign all day during all activities. It's not formal or anything - we just speak, and sign too. I and the parents probably know 20-30 signs and we ALL sign to him. He has just recently started stringing words together - we had to work on that for awhile - letting him mimic us, then just cuing, and finally now he does it independently. Here's the problem. We have been using the Joy of Signing. It's SEE I think. We are getting an ASL text - A Basic Course in ASL.......but should we teach both? Pick one? He'll be going to school in a year or so if he can get healthy enough - which ones do public schools use?

2) child number 2 and 3 are my kids. My daughter is one and because of me learning sign to talk to my patient.....I've ended up signing to her! She seems to focus better and "listen" more. Plus I think it would be useful for her to know. child number 3 is my next daughter, due this fall. I'd like to sign to her too. Will this just happen naturally? (my daughter is verbal and hearing) Will she learn sign better if she goes to class - maybe weekly or just a summer camp? I know many "typical" children are being taught "baby" sign - but they stop when they start to verbalize. I'd like them to learn both (to verbalize AND continue to learn sign). Again, should we focus on ASL for my girls or SEE? I don't want to get into which is "better".....I just want to know which is more widely used.

3)Last question - I plan on continuing to learn sign myself - it's just been really useful so far, plus I might get paid more if (as a nurse) I know another language! Again - ASL or SEE? Which is more widely used? Don't want to get into which is better - I'm aiming to be able to communicate with as much of the non-verbal population as possible, not win any PC awards......

Thanks in advance!

Use ASL is the best... do not use SEE...
thanks!
SxyPorkie

lowderra · 06-22-2006, 04:44 PM

SxyPorkie, I really appreciate your response.....however I'm not actually asking which is "best" (in fact, I believe I stated several times that I was specifically NOT asking that) I am in fact asking which one is used more often - especially in young-child environments. Like public school. Or the hospital. I don't intend to ever lecture at Deaf Schools, be an interpreter, etc. I just want to be able to function and communicate with the majority of signers.

Again - if anyone has a semi-definitive answer as to what is used by the majority of signing individuals, I'd really appreciate it.

My mantra is kind of "Perfect is the enemy of good enough." There was, once upon a time, a language being promoted as the "perfect" language. Esperanto. However, nobody spoke it. English is quite definitively NOT perfect, however it's widely spoken.

I'm interested in learning the kind of signing system that will enable me to communicate with as many signers as possible. That's it. Whichever is the one used by the majority is the one I want to focus on. I don't care whether it's perfect...or even good. ANYTHING is better than my current situation of 20-30 sign vocabulary, most of the words are useful only to toddlers. Diaper, cookie, Barney - kind of hard to have an adult conversation with those kinds of words, you know?

Thanks again, and sorry I wasn't more clear about what info I was looking for. Hope this is clearer.

Rose Immortal · 06-22-2006, 04:51 PM

My question--and maybe the experts could weigh in on this: considering that this child hears, is one grammatical structure better/easier for him?

ClearSky · 06-22-2006, 04:54 PM

That's a tough issue because since the child can hear I am not sure if not signing perfect but speaking well will not really affect his writing skills later on. I guess it really doesn't matter with hearing kids. The key to consider is if not signing perfect will affect his writing skills in school even though he is hearing. It may not, so if it doesn't then I guess PSE is the right one. Just make sure you voice at the same time, so he gets the clue.

Do you voice normal sentences while you sign simple words? I am really not sure if relying on what the majority uses is the best way to base your decision on a specific child. If you do voice normal sentences, then I am thinking voicing English while signing ASL might be hard.

lowderra · 06-22-2006, 05:03 PM

With the trached child (3 yo) and the typical child (my 1 yo) we always voice while signing. Always. They both hear......and my daughter can verbalize. He can't verbalize. But they both hear perfectly.

Oh, and he signs back. She doesn't (yet). He understands prob 20-30 signs and uses about 13-15......

Boult · 06-22-2006, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lowderra

Yeah, the title could have been better....

What does PSE stand for? With english word order ASL - that's kind of like SEE....just no "linking" (unnecessary) words like and, the, a, etc?

That's what we do now - it's like You-want-look-Barney (quizzical/questioning facial expression) instead of "do you want to watch your Barney video?"

PSE = Pidgin Signed English middle of spectrum of ASL to English in other word... contact sign. see under "contact sign" at http://listen-up.org/edu/options1.htm wiki format: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pidgin_Sign_English

regardless of what language you use, just don't do "dumbing down" any language.

ClearSky · 06-22-2006, 05:17 PM

I guess with the three year old PSE is better while you voice normal because since he can hear the in between articles, it should not be a problem. You are signing to him so that he can use it as a way of communication. I think ASL might be hard because it does not correlate well with how you speak--it might be harder to get your thoughts out. I may be wrong, but I hope someone else comes in and provide more info. Just make sure it doesn't affect his language skills in school.

As for your daughter, I am not sure because deaf children are different on their language needs. ASL is obviously the main language taught in high school and colleges. SEE and PSE are taught to help bridge spoken English and help with language problems. With me, I won't understand ASL well because I am oral. I learned SEE through an interpreter, and they have to voice what they are signing. You may go to a child who knows only SEE and sign in ASL to which they will be confused. I am thinking they should start out with ASL, then learn SEE and PSE later. Most kids do stop signing if they have no one to use it with. I am thinking exposing them somehow will help them keep using signs.

jag · 06-22-2006, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lowderra

1) child number one is nearly 3, cognitively normal, hearing child.....mute because of fused vocal cords (preemie - trauma from the intubation during long-term vent use). He uses about 13 signs now - we try to add one sign a week. We teach him at home (me, the other day nurse, and the parents) and we are all VERY invested in him learning sign and communicating his needs. We sign all day during all activities. It's not formal or anything - we just speak, and sign too. I and the parents probably know 20-30 signs and we ALL sign to him. He has just recently started stringing words together - we had to work on that for awhile - letting him mimic us, then just cuing, and finally now he does it independently. Here's the problem. We have been using the Joy of Signing. It's SEE I think. We are getting an ASL text - A Basic Course in ASL.......but should we teach both? Pick one? He'll be going to school in a year or so if he can get healthy enough - which ones do public schools use?

2) child number 2 and 3 are my kids. My daughter is one and because of me learning sign to talk to my patient.....I've ended up signing to her! She seems to focus better and "listen" more. Plus I think it would be useful for her to know. child number 3 is my next daughter, due this fall. I'd like to sign to her too. Will this just happen naturally? (my daughter is verbal and hearing) Will she learn sign better if she goes to class - maybe weekly or just a summer camp? I know many "typical" children are being taught "baby" sign - but they stop when they start to verbalize. I'd like them to learn both (to verbalize AND continue to learn sign). Again, should we focus on ASL for my girls or SEE? I don't want to get into which is "better".....I just want to know which is more widely used.

3)Last question - I plan on continuing to learn sign myself - it's just been really useful so far, plus I might get paid more if (as a nurse) I know another language! Again - ASL or SEE? Which is more widely used? Don't want to get into which is better - I'm aiming to be able to communicate with as much of the non-verbal population as possible, not win any PC awards......

Thanks in advance!

With child no. 1. if you're in the US he should be accessed by the local school district for EI services and they should be able to get his family access to a teacher for the deaf/hoh who can help teach them ASL. They could also set up some type of total communication setup for him. In my area up until age 3 it's homebased. after 3 they go to a school program. If you're in a large city the choice programming for him may include a school that uses ASL or SEE whichever the parents decide to us.

Teaching mentally impaired children sign language has been going on at least since my 16 yo (down syndrome) was a toddler. At that time it was being to be shown that giving learning delayed kids like my the power of communicating actually helped them because they could communicate what the problem was rather then be obstinate and cranky.

So for child 1, have his parents look into getting him the help from his public school which he should be entitled to even if they choose to send him to a private preschool/school.

And by all means use sign with you kids.

lowderra · 06-22-2006, 06:28 PM

Yes, child #1 is being served through the county infant and toddler program. They get very good services - communication, physical and occupational (play, for him) therapy.

The communication and occupational therapists use signing (just words, vocabulary, at this point) and picture boards with him. I personally prefer to sign with him - it's easier. Plus, I've had good luck teaching him to use my mouse and the return key and the mouse "click" key. I'm guessing in a year or two he might be able to be taught to type? He definitely has enough fine motor and intelligence to know how to use my laptop.....

I have friends who use sign with their special needs kids. One has a nonverbal 4 yo Down's child, the others have autisitic kids. They swear by it - evidently it helps their children feel like they have some power, a "voice", basically really improves quality of life.

That's the other reason I want my children to be able to sign. I want her to have the freedom and ability to communicate with all different kinds of individuals.

ismi · 06-22-2006, 07:55 PM

Since you're voicing, it would seem to make more sense to use SEE or PSE, and since you don't necessarily need all the little details that SEE provides (he's getting that through voice, after all) ...

ASL shouldn't be too hard to pick up if he wants to, once he knows PSE, right? (Don't know - I'm just guessing here.)

Angel · 06-22-2006, 08:08 PM

I believe ASL is widely used, but every child is different, some may not know ASL only SEE, so if there was a child who may be a patient of yours, you may ask which signs they prefer to use or know, and then you will have your answer....But if you were teaching a child who is your patient, maybe asked the child parents, what signs they prefer their child to learn, it's important to have the parents' permission on what language they want their children learning..

That's what most interpreter asked me, which signs I prefer or used before going ahead and interpreting ...

I'm glad you are helping these children, it would be nice if there was more people like you out there, keep it up!

deafdyke · 06-22-2006, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Teaching mentally impaired children sign language has been going on at least since my 16 yo (down syndrome) was a toddler.

As well as kids who are nonverbal b/c of other special needs. You sometimes see people with cerebal palsy or trachs or apraxia using Sign.
As for the OP, I would suggest ASL. It's easier to use to communicate. Your hands get tired signing every thing in SEE. Plus kids who have exposure to English, tend to be OK in English grammer etc. The English grammer prob that Deaf kids have, hearing (and hoh) kids don't have.
What state are you in? I would suggest that you contact the NAD that is in your state. They might be able to send out a mentor to teach the kid more sophisiticated language. I mean a three year old should be able to express themselves better then with only a handful of Signs.

Angel · 06-22-2006, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafdyke

Your hands get tired signing every thing in SEE.

It never tired me...

Rose Immortal · 06-22-2006, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafdyke

They might be able to send out a mentor to teach the kid more sophisiticated language. I mean a three year old should be able to express themselves better then with only a handful of Signs.

I noticed that too, and I was going to add that if people intervened late with this child to give him a means of communication, then he may require extra attention towards language development, even if he is highly gifted. There's only a limited window in which a child most effectively gets command over a grammatical structure. I hope that will be taken into account.

ismi · 06-22-2006, 09:00 PM

Quick offtopic here: is it common for a tracheotomy (assuming that we're talking about the same expansion of trach) to impair a person's ability to talk? I ask because several of my friends have trachs, but only one can't speak, and I had not realized it was due to the trach.

sr171soars · 06-22-2006, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ismi

Quick offtopic here: is it common for a tracheotomy (assuming that we're talking about the same expansion of trach) to impair a person's ability to talk? I ask because several of my friends have trachs, but only one can't speak, and I had not realized it was due to the trach.

I just read up on it and unless they are on a ventilator, one can usually talk. In some cases, a person needs to sometime learn how to speak with a tracheotomy.

Check this link tracheotomy

gnulinuxman · 06-22-2006, 09:48 PM

PSE is Pidgin Signed English. It is ASL signs in an English word order.

If you're signing and using your voice at the same time, you will have to use PSE or SEE, but SEE is too tedious to sign for a lot of people (you have to sign or fingerspell EVERYTHING) and the signs are different from ASL.

If you use PSE, you can communicate with most deaf signers because the signs are the same as ASL's. I recommend learning both--the only difference is in the grammar.

lowderra · 06-23-2006, 07:27 AM

Most 3 yo's, yes - would use more than a handful of signs. But this little guy isn't yet 3. Plus he was born at 25 wks, weighing only a pound. He's still catching up. Plus he's been sick - very sick, his whole life. He's more like an 18 m.o. socially, playwise, etc. He's mentally normal - just needs some time to catch up.

Trach'ed kids often are fitted with a "speaking valve" AKA passy-muir valve. This lets them speak. If they are on a ventilator, the circuit (air hose that provides breathes) and the valve need to be in place. Once the circuit comes off (like to be suctioned) - they are mute. However, he may be losing his trach in a few months (we hope!). However, even if he can lose his trach and use his upper airways to breathe.....there is still the (severely) scarred vocal cords to deal with. He *might* be able to speak (maybe) but the doctor's are not promising anything.

We want him to be able to communicate regardless - whether or not he is ever able to verbalize, and we don't want to wait. Hence, he's learning sign.

As for which sign - I don't think "which" system is something the parents have considered yet. When we began - I really didn't realize there WAS different systems....I assumed what we were doing was ASL. I'm thinking now what we are doing is probably PSE(contact?) sign because we are using (standard english) word order and just not fussing with the linking words - plus using facial expression and body language.

Anyway, we just all (parents and the two main nurses) knew he needed something better than the stupid "tech talk". Hated that thing. Half the time it didn't work, plus he regarded it as a game rather than a way to speak. I tried to use it - but kept falling back to sign (I had learned a few "baby signs") because with sign it worked immediately every time, and the equipment is always there and functional (right there at the end of your arms!) and can be easily cleaned with purell and shaken dry.

by the way - thank you everyone for all your suggestions, help and comments. EVERYBODY - thank you.

loml · 06-23-2006, 10:26 AM

lowderra,

Are you and the parents aware of a system that addresses language, communication and diversity? This system is Cued English/Cued Speech.

Have the parents considered about how to teach him to read and write English?

My concern with PSE which, imho, is what you get from many non-native ASLers', is that it does not support what the child sees and hears. It also is not complete language. Basically incomplete language in = incomplete language out. This is something that really has an enoumous impact on language development now and in the future, as the most opportune time for a child to learn language is prior to age 6.

There is a program in my area, that is implementing CE/CS with the trach children. Most families here use English, although CS does transfer to many other languages, the philosophy being, language of the family for inclusion at home and the community.

Here is the website of the National Cued SPeech Association and some info on the mutiple uses of CS:

http://www.cuedspeech.org/default.asp

Quote:

Multiple Uses of Cued Speech

Cued Speech was created for use by families of children who are deaf or hard of hearing. Cued Speech provides cued listening, cued phonemes, cued languages, and cued speechreading. Research and experience have proven the benefits of Cued Speech use for people who are deaf or hard of hearing in the development of

speechreading
speech
language
reading skills.
Speech-language pathologists and special educators saw the results of Cued Speech use with children with hearing loss and began the expansion of its use to children and adults with other needs. These individuals may have no disabilities or may have one or more disabilities, including but not limited to:

auditory neuropathy / dys-synchrony
autism
apraxia
cerebral palsy
deaf-blindness
developmental disabilities
learning disabilities.
Cued Speech is the unique link in sensory integration, bringing together sound, sight, kinesthesia, and motor movement at the phonemic level of language in any setting. Children and adults with and without hearing loss benefit from the multi-sensory nature of Cued Speech for a variety of purposes, such as

phonemic stimulation for listening, speech, language and literacy
presenting phonics to beginning readers
learning the phonemes of an added spoken language
speech instruction for articulation and disfluencies
language development
auditory discrimination and processing
oral-motor patterning
and more…
The following articles describe in more depth some of the many uses of Cued Speech:

Speech-Language Pathologist Uses Cued Speech for Hearing Children By Anne Marie Dziekonski
Cued Speech for Special Children By Pamela Beck
Cued Speech and Autism, Pervasive Developmental Disorders By Pamela Beck
Cued Speech and Down Syndrome By Pamela Beck

http://www.cuedspeech.org/sub/cued/uses.asp

GalaxyAngel · 06-23-2006, 10:46 AM

Suggest you may contuine ASL as much eaiser to understanding easy tools as ASL communcation a child..

Likely:
Milk
Water
Drink
food
Anything simple words teach sign.. what you want say something respond to you from a child..

Important eye visual see sign langauges ASL.. will delvop improve and will change English Grammer.. keep contuine ASL.

Wishes you have great luck!

I met few austim children and trying to communcation w/Hearing parents. Hearing parents saw us while My hubby and I were converstation.. They were apporched and begged asked me how can I teach my austic child. I'm very surprised touched my heart.. Yes Im happy to.. I came and say Hi.. (ASL) Kid looked at me.. *smiled* Guess what, They were shocked and happy joyed.. I gave them instruction where best place at Deaf School.. They are hoping their child will devloping learning sign languages. Few wks later, They bumped into us again.. said thanked to us so big time and warm invite us as chatting... We were speechless.. I saw the child.. begans say.. FOOD FOOD FOOD.. Parent was so happy and say YES.. bring food their child.

Worth it easy children use ASL first lanagues.. will delvop later become better english depend Austic children will adapt learn quicker or not..vary so many different children.

06-22-2006, 03:54 PM	#1 (permalink)
lowderra Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 10	Non-Deaf children who sign....... Hi, I'm new here. I was really happy to find this forum, and I'm hoping I can glean some useful info from you guys. I'm a nurse, and I work with special needs children. Mostly trached, mostly toddlers. Never worked with a deaf child, but many of them are unable to verbalize and end up signing. I believe this is an emerging population, because we are now able to save children (albeit with trachs) that ordinarily would have died. So I'm not sure anyone really has a clear protocol for the best way of teaching these kids to communicate. Anyway - I digress. I'm here about 3 children in particular. 1) child number one is nearly 3, cognitively normal, hearing child.....mute because of fused vocal cords (preemie - trauma from the intubation during long-term vent use). He uses about 13 signs now - we try to add one sign a week. We teach him at home (me, the other day nurse, and the parents) and we are all VERY invested in him learning sign and communicating his needs. We sign all day during all activities. It's not formal or anything - we just speak, and sign too. I and the parents probably know 20-30 signs and we ALL sign to him. He has just recently started stringing words together - we had to work on that for awhile - letting him mimic us, then just cuing, and finally now he does it independently. Here's the problem. We have been using the Joy of Signing. It's SEE I think. We are getting an ASL text - A Basic Course in ASL.......but should we teach both? Pick one? He'll be going to school in a year or so if he can get healthy enough - which ones do public schools use? 2) child number 2 and 3 are my kids. My daughter is one and because of me learning sign to talk to my patient.....I've ended up signing to her! She seems to focus better and "listen" more. Plus I think it would be useful for her to know. child number 3 is my next daughter, due this fall. I'd like to sign to her too. Will this just happen naturally? (my daughter is verbal and hearing) Will she learn sign better if she goes to class - maybe weekly or just a summer camp? I know many "typical" children are being taught "baby" sign - but they stop when they start to verbalize. I'd like them to learn both (to verbalize AND continue to learn sign). Again, should we focus on ASL for my girls or SEE? I don't want to get into which is "better".....I just want to know which is more widely used. 3)Last question - I plan on continuing to learn sign myself - it's just been really useful so far, plus I might get paid more if (as a nurse) I know another language! Again - ASL or SEE? Which is more widely used? Don't want to get into which is better - I'm aiming to be able to communicate with as much of the non-verbal population as possible, not win any PC awards...... Thanks in advance!

06-22-2006, 04:02 PM	#2 (permalink)
mfs781 MISSOURI Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: MISSOURI Posts: 4	Asl Not to speak for all but most of live by and use ASL. That is what is taught in state school like MSD.(Missouri) But good luck on you learning and teach. __________________ "There are so mant opportunities in life, that the loss of two or three capabilities is not necessarily debilitating. A handicap can give you the opportunity to focus more on art, writing, or music." --Jim Davis

06-22-2006, 04:23 PM	#4 (permalink)
gnulinuxman Registered User Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 1,740	Your best choice is to learn ASL and PSE. ASL is a real language, and PSE is ASL with an English word order. PS: The opposite of deaf is hearing. __________________ --Danny

06-22-2006, 06:28 PM	#14 (permalink)
lowderra Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 10	thanks Jag! Yes, child #1 is being served through the county infant and toddler program. They get very good services - communication, physical and occupational (play, for him) therapy. The communication and occupational therapists use signing (just words, vocabulary, at this point) and picture boards with him. I personally prefer to sign with him - it's easier. Plus, I've had good luck teaching him to use my mouse and the return key and the mouse "click" key. I'm guessing in a year or two he might be able to be taught to type? He definitely has enough fine motor and intelligence to know how to use my laptop..... I have friends who use sign with their special needs kids. One has a nonverbal 4 yo Down's child, the others have autisitic kids. They swear by it - evidently it helps their children feel like they have some power, a "voice", basically really improves quality of life. That's the other reason I want my children to be able to sign. I want her to have the freedom and ability to communicate with all different kinds of individuals.

06-22-2006, 08:08 PM	#16 (permalink)
Angel ♥"Concrete Angel"♥ Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 19,088	I believe ASL is widely used, but every child is different, some may not know ASL only SEE, so if there was a child who may be a patient of yours, you may ask which signs they prefer to use or know, and then you will have your answer....But if you were teaching a child who is your patient, maybe asked the child parents, what signs they prefer their child to learn, it's important to have the parents' permission on what language they want their children learning.. That's what most interpreter asked me, which signs I prefer or used before going ahead and interpreting ... I'm glad you are helping these children, it would be nice if there was more people like you out there, keep it up! __________________ "When we do the best we can, we never know what miracle is brought in our life, OR in the life of another." ~ Helen Keller

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06-22-2006, 04:07 PM	#3 (permalink)
lowderra Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 10	I think at Gaulledet (sp) in this area.....I think it's ASL.....however, I've heard that in public schools SEE is used. He's in a hearing family and I'm pretty sure they'd want him in the same school as his (hearing) sisters...so public. My daughters will be going to public too. Maybe I could just call the public shool and ask which they use?

06-22-2006, 04:29 PM	#5 (permalink)
lowderra Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 10	Yeah, the title could have been better.... What does PSE stand for? With english word order ASL - that's kind of like SEE....just no "linking" (unnecessary) words like and, the, a, etc? That's what we do now - it's like You-want-look-Barney (quizzical/questioning facial expression) instead of "do you want to watch your Barney video?"

06-22-2006, 04:44 PM	#7 (permalink)
lowderra Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 10	SxyPorkie, I really appreciate your response.....however I'm not actually asking which is "best" (in fact, I believe I stated several times that I was specifically NOT asking that) I am in fact asking which one is used more often - especially in young-child environments. Like public school. Or the hospital. I don't intend to ever lecture at Deaf Schools, be an interpreter, etc. I just want to be able to function and communicate with the majority of signers. Again - if anyone has a semi-definitive answer as to what is used by the majority of signing individuals, I'd really appreciate it. My mantra is kind of "Perfect is the enemy of good enough." There was, once upon a time, a language being promoted as the "perfect" language. Esperanto. However, nobody spoke it. English is quite definitively NOT perfect, however it's widely spoken. I'm interested in learning the kind of signing system that will enable me to communicate with as many signers as possible. That's it. Whichever is the one used by the majority is the one I want to focus on. I don't care whether it's perfect...or even good. ANYTHING is better than my current situation of 20-30 sign vocabulary, most of the words are useful only to toddlers. Diaper, cookie, Barney - kind of hard to have an adult conversation with those kinds of words, you know? Thanks again, and sorry I wasn't more clear about what info I was looking for. Hope this is clearer.

06-22-2006, 04:51 PM	#8 (permalink)
Rose Immortal Telepathic Spirit Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,254	My question--and maybe the experts could weigh in on this: considering that this child hears, is one grammatical structure better/easier for him?

06-22-2006, 04:54 PM	#9 (permalink)
ClearSky Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,085	That's a tough issue because since the child can hear I am not sure if not signing perfect but speaking well will not really affect his writing skills later on. I guess it really doesn't matter with hearing kids. The key to consider is if not signing perfect will affect his writing skills in school even though he is hearing. It may not, so if it doesn't then I guess PSE is the right one. Just make sure you voice at the same time, so he gets the clue. Do you voice normal sentences while you sign simple words? I am really not sure if relying on what the majority uses is the best way to base your decision on a specific child. If you do voice normal sentences, then I am thinking voicing English while signing ASL might be hard.

06-22-2006, 05:03 PM	#10 (permalink)
lowderra Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 10	With the trached child (3 yo) and the typical child (my 1 yo) we always voice while signing. Always. They both hear......and my daughter can verbalize. He can't verbalize. But they both hear perfectly. Oh, and he signs back. She doesn't (yet). He understands prob 20-30 signs and uses about 13-15......

06-22-2006, 05:17 PM	#12 (permalink)
ClearSky Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,085	I guess with the three year old PSE is better while you voice normal because since he can hear the in between articles, it should not be a problem. You are signing to him so that he can use it as a way of communication. I think ASL might be hard because it does not correlate well with how you speak--it might be harder to get your thoughts out. I may be wrong, but I hope someone else comes in and provide more info. Just make sure it doesn't affect his language skills in school. As for your daughter, I am not sure because deaf children are different on their language needs. ASL is obviously the main language taught in high school and colleges. SEE and PSE are taught to help bridge spoken English and help with language problems. With me, I won't understand ASL well because I am oral. I learned SEE through an interpreter, and they have to voice what they are signing. You may go to a child who knows only SEE and sign in ASL to which they will be confused. I am thinking they should start out with ASL, then learn SEE and PSE later. Most kids do stop signing if they have no one to use it with. I am thinking exposing them somehow will help them keep using signs.

06-22-2006, 07:55 PM	#15 (permalink)
ismi Implanted 7/18/07 Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 749	Since you're voicing, it would seem to make more sense to use SEE or PSE, and since you don't necessarily need all the little details that SEE provides (he's getting that through voice, after all) ... ASL shouldn't be too hard to pick up if he wants to, once he knows PSE, right? (Don't know - I'm just guessing here.)

06-22-2006, 09:00 PM	#20 (permalink)
ismi Implanted 7/18/07 Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 749	Quick offtopic here: is it common for a tracheotomy (assuming that we're talking about the same expansion of trach) to impair a person's ability to talk? I ask because several of my friends have trachs, but only one can't speak, and I had not realized it was due to the trach.

06-22-2006, 09:48 PM	#22 (permalink)
gnulinuxman Registered User Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 1,740	PSE is Pidgin Signed English. It is ASL signs in an English word order. If you're signing and using your voice at the same time, you will have to use PSE or SEE, but SEE is too tedious to sign for a lot of people (you have to sign or fingerspell EVERYTHING) and the signs are different from ASL. If you use PSE, you can communicate with most deaf signers because the signs are the same as ASL's. I recommend learning both--the only difference is in the grammar. __________________ --Danny

06-23-2006, 07:27 AM	#23 (permalink)
lowderra Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 10	trachs, delays b/c of illness.... Most 3 yo's, yes - would use more than a handful of signs. But this little guy isn't yet 3. Plus he was born at 25 wks, weighing only a pound. He's still catching up. Plus he's been sick - very sick, his whole life. He's more like an 18 m.o. socially, playwise, etc. He's mentally normal - just needs some time to catch up. Trach'ed kids often are fitted with a "speaking valve" AKA passy-muir valve. This lets them speak. If they are on a ventilator, the circuit (air hose that provides breathes) and the valve need to be in place. Once the circuit comes off (like to be suctioned) - they are mute. However, he may be losing his trach in a few months (we hope!). However, even if he can lose his trach and use his upper airways to breathe.....there is still the (severely) scarred vocal cords to deal with. He might be able to speak (maybe) but the doctor's are not promising anything. We want him to be able to communicate regardless - whether or not he is ever able to verbalize, and we don't want to wait. Hence, he's learning sign. As for which sign - I don't think "which" system is something the parents have considered yet. When we began - I really didn't realize there WAS different systems....I assumed what we were doing was ASL. I'm thinking now what we are doing is probably PSE(contact?) sign because we are using (standard english) word order and just not fussing with the linking words - plus using facial expression and body language. Anyway, we just all (parents and the two main nurses) knew he needed something better than the stupid "tech talk". Hated that thing. Half the time it didn't work, plus he regarded it as a game rather than a way to speak. I tried to use it - but kept falling back to sign (I had learned a few "baby signs") because with sign it worked immediately every time, and the equipment is always there and functional (right there at the end of your arms!) and can be easily cleaned with purell and shaken dry. by the way - thank you everyone for all your suggestions, help and comments. EVERYBODY - thank you.

06-23-2006, 10:46 AM	#25 (permalink)
GalaxyAngel That's me! Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Alberta,Canada Posts: 13,542	Suggest you may contuine ASL as much eaiser to understanding easy tools as ASL communcation a child.. Likely: Milk Water Drink food Anything simple words teach sign.. what you want say something respond to you from a child.. Important eye visual see sign langauges ASL.. will delvop improve and will change English Grammer.. keep contuine ASL. Wishes you have great luck! I met few austim children and trying to communcation w/Hearing parents. Hearing parents saw us while My hubby and I were converstation.. They were apporched and begged asked me how can I teach my austic child. I'm very surprised touched my heart.. Yes Im happy to.. I came and say Hi.. (ASL) Kid looked at me.. smiled Guess what, They were shocked and happy joyed.. I gave them instruction where best place at Deaf School.. They are hoping their child will devloping learning sign languages. Few wks later, They bumped into us again.. said thanked to us so big time and warm invite us as chatting... We were speechless.. I saw the child.. begans say.. FOOD FOOD FOOD.. Parent was so happy and say YES.. bring food their child. Worth it easy children use ASL first lanagues.. will delvop later become better english depend Austic children will adapt learn quicker or not..vary so many different children. __________________ Parent's proud our children.