ASL, SEE Sign, & Signed English

rockdrummer · 06-12-2006, 03:12 PM

I found this link below. I read through it and it seems that not everyone is agreement with what is said. I am struggling between SEE and ASL. Sign classes for adults are in ASL and the kids are learning SEE in school. I welcome your comments.

http://www.listen-up.org/sign2.htm

Quote:

Many have asked questions regarding the different types of signs in use. I have a sheet here from The SEE Center that gives good explanations on the various sign methods commonly in use.

American Sign Language (ASL)

ASL is used by many deaf in the United States, thus its use promotes assimilation into the Deaf Community. ASL is a visual language, and speechreading or listening skills are not needed to learn ASL fluently. Because of its visual nature, ASL is very graphic, and understanding of concepts can be promoted more easily. It has developed over time through usage by deaf individuals and is a free-flowing, natural language. ASL is a language complete in itself. It is not usually written or spoken, but can be translated, just like French or German, to English and vice versa. ASL has it's own syntax and grammar. It does count as a language credit at University level, because it is a separate language.

Pidgin Signed English(PSE) or Signed English

PSE is probably the most widely used communication modality in the United States among deaf and hearing persons who work with them. Many teachers use PSE or Signed English. The vocabulary is drawn from ASL but follows English word order. Words that do not carry information (e.g. to, the, am, etc.) are often dropped, as are the word endings of English (e.g. -ed, -s, -ment, etc.). This means that the signer can easily speak while signing, since it is possible to keep pace with spoken English. It is simpler to learn than ASL or SEE, since one does not need to include all English endings, nor does one to master the structure or idioms of ASL.

Signing Exact English

SEE is based upon signs drawn from ASL and expanded with words, prefixes, tenses, and endings to give a clear and complete visual presentation of English. The ASL sign for the concept of "pretty, lovely, beauty, beautiful" and other such synonyms is retained for beauty, initialized with P for pretty, L for lovely, and the suffix -ful is added for beautiful. The child thus has an opportunity to develop an expanded vocabulary. The learning of this English based sign system may be more comfortable for English-speaking parents. Maximum use of residual hearing and speechreading is encouraged since the signs match the elements of spoken English. SEE encourages the incorporation of ASL features to show intonation visually. SEE does require more signing time that PSE, because of the word endings and prefixes, etc. Overconcentration on signing every word may lead to "colorless" signing.

I think it is fairly easy for a child who knows SEE to code switch to ASL. My friend's little boy, who is 7, is already getting the hang of that. Many school districts use SEE as it does convey the English language well, and facilitates reading, which we know has been a notorious problem with Deaf adults. SEE is universal. PSE can be more heavily influenced by who is doing the signing, ASL can too. Interpreters have more control over what is interpreted in ASL. I know many hearing people become frustrated with that, they think that what they are saying is not being interpreted right, due to lack of knowledge of ASL, i.e., it's the concept of the sentence, not the content.

Deciding which to use or learn, is hard. It is very individual. As we all know which ever path we go down in the communication road with our children it is hard. They all require work from us to learn, and use effectively. I just hope that all of you have gotten the chance to know these options and the others that are available.

06-12-2006, 03:30 PM

Let me make easy for you so that you would identify with two different worlds of deaf and hearing.

ASL = Hip Hop
PSL = Opera
SEE = European classical music

Which do you prefer?

rockdrummer · 06-12-2006, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mookie

Let me make easy for you so that you would identify with two different worlds of deaf and hearing.

ASL = Hip Hop
PSL = Opera
SEE = European classical music

Which do you prefer?

Actually, as a musician I love it all. But it's not that simple when dealing with the frustration of trying to communicate with my child who is learning SEE

gnulinuxman · 06-12-2006, 03:50 PM

SEE is a very Englishy signing system. It is very tiring to sign for more than a couple of minutes because of all the word endings, the need to sign every single word, etc. I prefer ASL because it's cleaner, more expressive (the words/signs aren't everything--body posture, facial expression, eyes, etc. all go into it).

In SEE, you would sign "HI, WHAT IS YOUR NAME?"
In ASL, it would go more like "HI!

NAME WHAT YOU look interested"
In PSE, you use ASL signs in an English word order, like this: "HI! WHAT YOUR NAME ??"

Hope this helps.

06-12-2006, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

Actually, as a musician I love it all. But it's not that simple when dealing with the frustration of trying to communicate with my child who is learning SEE

All you have to do is to write the English language and teach your kid in ASL verbally. It is not that too hard.

My two-year old daughter can speak full sentences and sign in ASL. My five-year old son can speak very well. There is no barrier between ASL and spoken-language. My kids with bi-language are doing very well. My son is in preschool program at the public elementary school. I was told that they will consider him to enroll into the first or second grade class instead of kindergarten program. I was like

No, I am not kidding. My wife who is HH always teaches our kids the proper langauges and good manners.

What about Math skills? What is so hard to understand the Math language?
What about Science skills? What is so hard to understand the Science formation?
What about Music Skill? What is so hard to learn the type of music?

I am not surprised that people with oralism methods made an effort to lecture hearies that there is no way to improve the deaf oralism student with their knowledgeable in ASL. That is Myth...

Heath · 06-12-2006, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mookie

Let me make easy for you so that you would identify with two different worlds of deaf and hearing.

ASL = Hip Hop
PSL = Opera
SEE = European classical music

Which do you prefer?

My mom did the right thing to start me out on SEE then I learned PSE then finally in high school I really learned ASL but now these days I go between SEE and PSE. No wonder, I can read and write English so well. I have my mom to Thank Her.

loml · 06-12-2006, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Sign classes for adults are in ASL and the kids are learning SEE in school. I welcome your comments.

Is the school where he will/is attending using SEE/SEEII certified translitorators/interpreters or people looking into being certified?

Can you also take SEE classes?

06-12-2006, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

Is the school where he will/is attending using SEE/SEEII certified translitorators/interpreters or people looking into being certified?

Can you also take SEE classes?

Poor interpreters, their hands are getting into cramp....

loml · 06-12-2006, 04:40 PM

Oh yes, indeed Mookie, it is alot of signing.

A child needs to have clear concise access to language and interaction with users of that language.

06-12-2006, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

Oh yes, indeed Mookie, it is alot of signing.

A child needs to have clear concise access to language and interaction with users of that language.

For whole days? That does not work.

Why don't you try to sign SEE 8-hour a day five days a week and 44 weeks a school year?

Don't forget to teach/interpret deaf kids for any subjects: science, math, social issues, art, physical education, music, computer, history and English.

That does not work very well and that would consume the kids' valuable time.

loml, nice try....why don't you create your own school system for kids...

loml · 06-12-2006, 05:00 PM

Mookie

Quote:

For whole days? That does not work.

Why don't you try to sign SEE 8-hour a day five days a week and 44 weeks a school year?

Don't forget to teach/interpret deaf kids for any subjects: science, math, social issues, art, physical education, music, computer, history and English.

That does not work very well and that would consume the kids' valuable time.

loml, nice try....why don't you create your own school system for kids...

Mookie,

Hearing parents are choosing SEE/SEEII for many reasons, you do not have to look very far to find it being used all day at school and then at home. That is the way it is.

06-12-2006, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

Mookie

Mookie,

Hearing parents are choosing SEE/SEEII for many reasons, you do not have to look very far to find it being used all day at school and then at home. That is the way it is.

I am not surprised with that.

Hearing Parents are too lazy to learn ASL. Moreover, they do not have enough time to learn from their deaf kid(s). All they focus on their own careers, family, cooking, managing their banking accounts, free time.

I have seen that before. I was the freking SEE student at that time.

loml, you know nothing....

gnulinuxman · 06-12-2006, 05:25 PM

ASL is WAY easier to sign than SEE. I don't get why people think SEE is so much easier/better. ASL is more efficient.

loml · 06-12-2006, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mookie

I am not surprised with that.

Hearing Parents are too lazy to learn ASL. Moreover, they do not have enough time to learn from their deaf kid(s). All they focus on their own careers, family, cooking, managing their banking accounts, free time.

I have seen that before. I was the freking SEE student at that time.

loml, you know nothing....

Mookie,

Your view is from a differrent place than mine.

loml · 06-12-2006, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnulinuxman

ASL is WAY easier to sign than SEE. I don't get why people think SEE is so much easier/better. ASL is more efficient.

Everyone is different, everyone learns differently. I agree ASL is effecient.

GNU have you ever volunteered/worked in a deaf school? Have you ever witnessed the quality, or lack there of, of education in a deaf school? Have you ever taken the time to list the variables involved in raising a deaf child?

GNU,

Expand your world.

gnulinuxman · 06-12-2006, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

Everyone is different, everyone learns differently. I agree ASL is effecient.

GNU have you ever volunteered/worked in a deaf school? Have you ever witnessed the quality, or lack there of, of education in a deaf school? Have you ever taken the time to list the variables involved in raising a deaf child?

GNU,

Expand your world.

In your ideal world, deaf kids wouldn't learn to sign.

loml · 06-12-2006, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnulinuxman

In your ideal world, deaf kids wouldn't learn to sign.

I am not sure just what gave you that impression, but you are most certainly wrong.

gnulinuxman · 06-12-2006, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

I am not sure just what gave you that impression, but you are most certainly wrong.

Prove it. You keep posting in favor of oral and cued speech and cochlear implants.

SB_GB_4ever · 06-12-2006, 08:25 PM

I prefer PSE that is what i have learned and am still learning. For hearing people like me ASL is ver easy to sign but very hard to understand. I would go with PSE.

gnulinuxman · 06-12-2006, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SB_GB_4ever

I prefer PSE that is what i have learned and am still learning. For hearing people like me ASL is ver easy to sign but very hard to understand. I would go with PSE.

Hmmm...I'm a hearing person and don't have that many problems understanding ASL. I would prefer it if people wouldn't generalize like that.

loml · 06-12-2006, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Hmmm...I'm a hearing person and don't have that many problems understanding ASL.

GNU,

Perhaps being a deviant has something to do with it.

deafdyke · 06-12-2006, 10:59 PM

Quote:

have you ever volunteered/worked in a deaf school? Have you ever witnessed the quality, or lack there of, of education in a deaf school?

This includes ORAL programs too you know! The problem is that dhh kids approach English as a SECOND language. Research has indicated that dhh kids make the same syntax, grammer etc mistakes as do speakers of other languages. Look, the mastery of English isn;t Harvard level, but you know what? There are many many hearing people who speak Italien, or whatever as a first language, who come out with sentances like "Are you feel better or When a passenger on foot heaves in sight, tootle him with viger.

loml · 06-12-2006, 11:28 PM

deafdyke

Quote:

The problem is that dhh kids approach English as a SECOND language.

deafdyke,

You have to have a first language to approach English as a second language.

rockdrummer · 06-13-2006, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

Is the school where he will/is attending using SEE/SEEII certified translitorators/interpreters or people looking into being certified?

Can you also take SEE classes?

His school teaches TC which I sort of support. I say sort of because I am concerned that throwing to many different methods at him will just be confusing. Their view is to try various methods and gravitate towards the one(s) that work. His teachers are more than qualified to teach total communication. As far as taking SEE classes, I have not seen any that are offered through the special needs programs.

rockdrummer · 06-13-2006, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mookie

I am not surprised with that.

Hearing Parents are too lazy to learn ASL. Moreover, they do not have enough time to learn from their deaf kid(s). All they focus on their own careers, family, cooking, managing their banking accounts, free time.

I have seen that before. I was the freking SEE student at that time.

loml, you know nothing....

Dude that is so NOT true. I would say that there are probably SOME partents out there like that but please dont make a generalization that lumps ME in with those that you speak of. I am busting my ass trying to learn as much as I can and I will continue to do so. This is not easy to say the least but it doesn't mean I will give up. I have to believe that there are other parents of deaf kids out there that feel the same way I do.

rockdrummer · 06-13-2006, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnulinuxman

SEE is a very Englishy signing system. It is very tiring to sign for more than a couple of minutes because of all the word endings, the need to sign every single word, etc. I prefer ASL because it's cleaner, more expressive (the words/signs aren't everything--body posture, facial expression, eyes, etc. all go into it).

In SEE, you would sign "HI, WHAT IS YOUR NAME?"
In ASL, it would go more like "HI!

NAME WHAT YOU look interested"
In PSE, you use ASL signs in an English word order, like this: "HI! WHAT YOUR NAME ??"

Hope this helps.

Yes it's helpful. Thanks. From what I gather, ASL is a very efficient language for personal communication. SEE is geared towards teaching literacy and PSE is the in between. I do notice the lack of literacy in some deaf folks but it doesn't mean I cant understand them. There are rare cases that I have encounterd where no matter how many times I read what they said, I just don't understand what they are saying. So I do believe that teaching literacy is a good thing and will help a person achieve more in the world. That applies to hearing and deaf alike. IMO.

06-12-2006, 03:50 PM	#4 (permalink)
gnulinuxman Registered User Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 1,740	SEE is a very Englishy signing system. It is very tiring to sign for more than a couple of minutes because of all the word endings, the need to sign every single word, etc. I prefer ASL because it's cleaner, more expressive (the words/signs aren't everything--body posture, facial expression, eyes, etc. all go into it). In SEE, you would sign "HI, WHAT IS YOUR NAME?" In ASL, it would go more like "HI! NAME WHAT YOU look interested" In PSE, you use ASL signs in an English word order, like this: "HI! WHAT YOUR NAME ??" Hope this helps. __________________ --Danny

06-12-2006, 05:25 PM	#13 (permalink)
gnulinuxman Registered User Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 1,740	ASL is WAY easier to sign than SEE. I don't get why people think SEE is so much easier/better. ASL is more efficient. __________________ --Danny

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06-12-2006, 03:30 PM	#2 (permalink)
Mookie Guest Posts: n/a	Let me make easy for you so that you would identify with two different worlds of deaf and hearing. ASL = Hip Hop PSL = Opera SEE = European classical music Which do you prefer?

06-12-2006, 08:25 PM	#19 (permalink)
SB_GB_4ever Howdy yall! Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 83	I prefer PSE that is what i have learned and am still learning. For hearing people like me ASL is ver easy to sign but very hard to understand. I would go with PSE.

06-13-2006, 09:58 AM	#27 (permalink)
rockdrummer Always 1 beat off Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Chicago area Posts: 3,008