rockdrummer

Let’s see if I can wiggle my way out of this one…

Several people have echoed that point so it starts to sink in. My original question asked if there was agreement with the definition I provided and if not, to provide a source. The question on the definition was ultimately answered and that answer is quite acceptable. There were never any posts providing a source of any differing definition, which is part of what I was seeking. One of the things that motivates me to ask for sources is the forethought of knowing there will be others like me that are learning and seeking answers.

Please understand this is a learning process for me and taking information from folks on a message board is only a part of that process. For me to learn and to be convinced I need additional resources to draw upon. It would also be a great service to provide those resources when possible.

This is not to slight anyone and these are general comments and I say them with all due respect. At the end of the day I don’t personally know any of you or what your credentials are or what motivates you. While I respect your insight and opinions from my perspective they are just that and only a part of my learning process.

This conversation has taught me a few things but at the same time adds confusion and brings up questions on what happened to the educational system with regards to deaf children? Perhaps that’s a topic for another thread.

Deafness

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jillio

The short answer would be that the educational system was switched from a deaf perspective to a hearing perspective. It has become the trend to provide services based on what the hearing believe the deaf need, rather than what the deaf are telling us they need. Very ethnocentric, and ineffectual.

As far as the lengthy conversation goes, its not a problem. I will take all the time necessary to attempt to explain and answer questions when it is obvious that one is truly trying to absorb and learn information for the benefit of a deaf child, or even in order to increase their understanding of a difference. I hope we can continue this process, rockdrummer.

rockdrummer

Thanks Jillio and I do appreciate your patience and we can absolutly continue this process. I would not be here if I wasn't truly trying to learn. I have learned much here and continue to use this site as a valuable resource of information.

On the education question, do you know when this paradigm shift took place and why? Also do you believe it's wide spread? Any resources would also be appreciated.

shel90

I was told that SEE, CS, TC are used for educational puposes for the purpose of helping deaf/hoh children acquire reading and writing skills and they are most effective if the deaf child has developed a strong L1 language while ASL and English are languages by themselves.

I used SEE with my students again today during reading to try to model the difference between ASL and English..they are starting to understand but unable to retell what they read using ASL. They try to memorize word for word which, in other words, they are using SEE to retell the story but it doesnt show me if they comprehend what they read or not. I would ask them questions relating to the passage that they just read out loud using and they could barely answer them correctly. That's the problem with SEE in many mainstreamed programs that serve deaf children who use sign language..the teacher that I have observed or worked with (when I was an aide) marked the students as passing reading comprehension goals on their IEP or report cards if they signed the passage word for word. I could tell by their facial expressions that they seemed not to understand the context of the passage. Know what I mean? To me, it is like a hearing child reading the passage out loud halting by word for word rather than fluency. Hope that makes sense?

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~Shel~

"A child educated only at school is an uneducated child." -George Santayana

jillio

Well put shel. Comprehension is the issue. Just being able to memorize and regurgitate does not mean that a student has synthesized the material in order to be able to understand and apply it in various situations.

Capmeister

That's a general problem in all schools, sad to say.

jillio

Absolutely. Bur particularly important for assessing the deaf child.

rockdrummer

I think I understand this and it seems that these kids are being taught two languages simultaniously. I have to imagine that would be a bit tough on a kid to try to learn and comprehend two languages.

shel90

Well..we have to..so they can get started on reading and writing in English. Unfortunately my students r delayed in language (ASL) cuz they couldn't pick up on spoken language that's why my class is the special ed 1st grade class..the other regular 1st grade classes, the kids can switch back and forth between both languages easily and most of them are children from deaf families or children who have benefitted from their CIs.

__________________
~Shel~

"A child educated only at school is an uneducated child." -George Santayana

jillio

Exactly. We are constantly functioning from a remedial standpoint with these kids because of language acquisition issues that affect not only their English skills, but ther reading writing, math, and critical thinking skills.

shel90

Yea it ios hard..my students r 8 and 9 years old and still don't understand "why" nor open-ended questions. It is a challenge cuz the curriculm involves a lot of critical thinking skills. They weren't born with any congitive disabilities but they were put in oral only programs at first and when it was apparent that they weren't picking up on language as they should be, they came here to learn asl. That's another reason I don't believe in oral only programs. I have 3 students who have CIs..just wish they had been exposed to asl in those programs cuz of course their parents r just learning asl too. Makes for a tough situation for those kids and they r the ones who pay the price!

__________________
~Shel~

"A child educated only at school is an uneducated child." -George Santayana

Capmeister

Children have a much easier time learning more than one language at the same time. I hope to be married someday and have kids. I intend to sign when I speak and so they'll grow up bilingual. Happens all the time in ethnic immigrant families.

Capmeister

My brother is a big proponant of bi/bi programs. I assume you would be as well?

shel90

Yep..u got that right!

__________________
~Shel~

"A child educated only at school is an uneducated child." -George Santayana

rockdrummer

Is it true that for the most part the signs between SEE and ASL are the same with SEE adding additional signs to match english syntax? I understand that sentence structure is different between the two.

jillio

I would say more borrowed than exactly the same. See also initializes many signs to to show that a different word is used for the same comcept, wheer ASL uses markers, context, and body language to imply the same thing. Like the sign "have" in ASL is made with the closed 5 hand, and, when interpreting if that root needs to be "has" or "had" it is inferred in context. But SEE would sign "have" using the same position and motion, but use V hands for "have", s hands for "has", and "d" hands for "had".

rockdrummer

Does anyone have an answer as to when the shift in educational methods took place and for what reason? Thanks!

Capmeister

I find it very jarring when I see it. I'm not very good at the spacial part of ASL, but putting tense by context and such I am. If I want to say, "I fed the cats and took out the garbage," I'd sign "I feed cat finished, take garbage out finished." And yet, if I want to sign "I let Greg borrow your book" I wouldn't sign Greg, put him in the place in space, then sign book and move borrow from you to Greg. I'd sign "I let Greg borrow your book." I know it's a matter of practice and retraining my hearie brain, but I've been too lazy to do it.

jillio

Shifts parrallel the beginning of the Oralist Movement.

shel90

I know what u mean...my husband still thinks in English words when he signs and it causes him to sign in SEE like, for example, when he signs "inspecting", he uses his pinky finger ("I" sign) instead of the index finger and I asked him why he kept saigning it wrong, he said when he forms his thoughts, he thinks of the English word causing him to sign by the first letter of the word rather than thinking of the action itself like I do. When I sign in ASL, I think in pictures with some English words here and there.

__________________
~Shel~

"A child educated only at school is an uneducated child." -George Santayana

BearBeauty

I'm a lot like your husband, shel. LOL I think in English and try to sign it. Usually it comes out in PSE, But on occasions it can be SEE although I didn't mean for it to.

But you know my history, I'm more Oral than ASL oriented. Even though I sign, I still have problems with understanding the ASL concept.

jillio

Yep, like when signing that you "have to do the dishes". Have in ASL is the concept of posessing, so you would not use that sign, you would use the sign for "must need" concept. In English, it sounds fine and is understood, but in ASL it appears that you possess the dishes. Nor would you sign do, but wash.

Capmeister

Interesting. Do you dream in ASL, or do you just know what people are saying? I had a few ASL dreams and then realized it was very odd for me to really have language per se in my dreams, I think.

I mostly think in English, but it depends on the depth of conversation and what I'm talking about. A story about how the cat barfed on my bedroom floor and I stepped in it in the middle of the night is far more suited to being told in ASL. Last week or the week before my brother and I had been watching Planet Earth on DiscoveryHD theater and I said to him that the persistance of life is amazing. I was talking about it in an email with a friend the next day, and my mind blocked on the word "persistance." All I could think of was the sign. In English all I could muster was "stick-to-it-iveness" which isn't even a word. Made me wonder how often I think in concepts now rather than words. I don't know--who tracks such a thing.

I do know that if someone tells me something in sign or voices it to me gets forgotten so I can't remember who told me what based on how I received the information.

As well, my brother once came into my room for a book while I was sleeping and my door had been closed. Now, I'm a heavy sleeper (which is good because he stomps around) and he tried to close the door on his way out. The old door wouldn't catch so he kept slamming it, trying to get it to stay closed. I woke up and said: "What the f**k are you doing?!?!"

"Trying to close your door," he replied.

I yelled: "Stop it! It doesn't matter!"

The next morning I remembered it but didn't remember signing at all. Nor did I remember talking. I just remembered that I communicated somehow. I asked him if I signed to him, and he said yes.

Signing has become such a part of my mind that I also tend to talk to myself in sign. Hearies probably think I'm nuts.

shel90

I dont recall if I did...I still think in English when thinking to myself.

I became fully fluent in ASL about 5 years ago..started learning it 10 years ago but it was very slow going for me cuz I had so many other things going on in my life which prevented me from socializing with signers as much. It wasnt until I went to Gallaudet that I picked it up rapidly.

__________________
~Shel~

"A child educated only at school is an uneducated child." -George Santayana

Capmeister

Thankfully, most of that I never learned when I started signing. I would sign "You need clean dish." I had a good first teacher who would point out how have would be wrong, and you didn't say "I got sick" because that would be "I received sick" in concept and you should sign "I sick" or "I become sick."

My brother, if he's been talking to very SEE people, will use the "i" handshape for "I" and "is" or the "b" handshape for "be" and I always tell him STOP THAT! It throws me off. Sadly, I sign "is" more and "it" more because of his influence when he moved her from college, where they were VERY SEE/PSE at college. (He once had to interpret for his SEE roommate between him and a friend who was ASL. Everyone was deaf, and he was the interpreter. )