deafdyke

Well you can respond to the "let him be truely deaf" folks by saying that you want your kid to have a full toolbox of tools......You want him to be able to enjoy sound, but you also want him to be able to take part in the deaf world. Also you could tell them that he's still a little young to know what he likes and doesn't like. You're giving him the option to see if he likes hearing through hearing aids. Just b/c they didn't like hearing aids, doesn't mean that he won't.

Deafness

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christlovedeaf

What I learned, ASL is a language, but SEE, CUED, PSE is not a language. Language is more than just a words, words is imply with vocabulary. Like a song, " Don't make my brown eyes blue". SEE use the word to make eye color brown turn into blue as by signing the concept. In ASL ssaying dont cause my brown eyes sad(blue). I grew up oral, as I learned sign language, I thought it's one kind of sign, till I learned about ASL, that's make alot of sense than SEE. As hearing think it's not good for ASL, bec missing alot of words, which their perspective is incorrect. And also, try to make the deaf learned what it sounds like to make them "hear" better and also, practice to hear, that's where I grew up with that and causing lot of confusion. I'm good writing in english, but sign ASL. Even I was so amazed, as a christmas songs "Silent Night", many deaf traditionally sign in english, till when they saw me sign in ASL, they were amazed and wonder if that's what the song is about.

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I can only imagine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV9jiqS-74g

rockdrummer

Below is a definition of language that I found online. If you agree with the definition, would your comment about SEE CUED and PSE not being a language still hold true? If you don't agree with the definition please provide a source of your information.

Thanks

Main Entry: lan·guage
Pronunciation: 'la[ng]-gwij, -wij
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French langage, from lange, langue tongue, language, from Latin lingua -- more at TONGUE
1 a : the words, their pronunciation, and the methods of combining them used and understood by a community b (1) : audible, articulate, meaningful sound as produced by the action of the vocal organs (2) : a systematic means of communicating ideas or feelings by the use of conventionalized signs, sounds, gestures, or marks having understood meanings (3) : the suggestion by objects, actions, or conditions of associated ideas or feelings <language in their very gesture -- Shakespeare> (4) : the means by which animals communicate (5) : a formal system of signs and symbols (as FORTRAN or a calculus in logic) including rules for the formation and transformation of admissible expressions (6) : MACHINE LANGUAGE 1
2 a : form or manner of verbal expression; specifically : STYLE b : the vocabulary and phraseology belonging to an art or a department of knowledge c : PROFANITY
3 : the study of language especially as a school subject
4 : specific words especially in a law or regulation <added language prohibiting further development along the river>

Source: Merriam-Webster Online

jillio

Written English and spoken English are not different languages, but simply different forms of the same language. Likewise with SEE,or PSE. They are manually coded English systems because they follow the same grammatical, syntactical, and pragmatic rules.

Even though ASL can be translated into English word with roughly the same concept, it follows different syntactical, grammatical, and pragmatic rules. Likewise with French or Spanish, or any other language that is not English.

rockdrummer

Right but the question is do you consider them languages. I was responding to the post above that said they are not languages.

jillio

No. I do not cosider SEE, PSE, or cued speech to be languages in and of themselves. They are simply manual expressions of one language: English. I base my opinion on liguistic criteria for definition of what constitutes a separate language. If SEE, PSE, and cued speech are languages separate from English, then written English would be a language separate from spoken English, for the criterion applied would be simply mode of production and reception.

shel90

I agree with Jillo because I studied linquistics and languge acquistition but I cant remember all the terminology to explain it. Jillo is better at it than me.

I just know at first, I was resistant to the facts saying that those modes of signing or communication werent considered as languages but after a year of studying and become fluent in ASL myself, it just became clear to me.

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~Shel~

"A child educated only at school is an uneducated child." -George Santayana

rockdrummer

Pardon my ignorance, but isn't ASL manual expressions of a language? Do you consider ASL a language? When I posted the definition I included all of them. The one that I think applied most is;

Would you agree that definition constitutes a language or does Webster have it wrong?

Tousi

ASL, of and by itself, yes, is a language; Cued, SEE, and the like are not; they are merely educational TOOLS to help guide deaf students to literacy. So the thinking now is why not save all of the aggravation and lead students to this literacy via ASL? Don't ask me the whys and wherefores in going about this cuz I haven't the slightest notion. Those more educated/knowledgeable than I say it can be done.

Funny thing is, tho, there's pretty much of a concensus out there that: There are not enough HEARING people skilled in both English AND ASL....AND there also aren't enough skilled DEAF folks skilled in the same two languages to fill all of the deaf classrooms all across out land...to pull this off.

Don't mind me; I'm just frothing at the mouth, lol.

jillio

ASL is a manual language, but it is linguistically separate from English. Grammar, syntax and pragmatics follow rules only applied to ASL, and that do not apply to English. SEE, PSE, and MCE, however, use a manual mode of expression, but follow English rules for grammar, syntax, and pragmatics. Written English, as well, is a manual visual expression, but no one would ever say that written English is a language separate from spoken English. ASL is not a derivitive of the English language. All languages have in common their ability to represent a concept that is panhuman. The rules for communicating that concept, and the symbols utilized in doing so, are what separate them.

jillio

Systematic means is the key phrase in that definition. The systemactic means for ASL differ from the systematic means of SEE, PSE, and MCE.

rockdrummer

Right but you didn't answer the question. Do you believe that SEE, CUED, PSE fit the definition below? Remember my response of the definition was based on a comment that stated SEE, CUED, and PSE are not languages.
Would you agree that definition constitutes a language or does Webster have it wrong?

jillio

I thought I was answering the question all along. Let me try this again--SEE, CS, MCE, PSE are a systematic means of communicating in English. Yes, English is a language.

American Sign Language is a systematic means of communicating in a language that is specific to a certain group of people and uses linguistic rules that are separate from those used in English. ASL is a language.

English is a language, ASL is a language. PSE, SEE, MCE, and CS are NOT LANGUAGES.

jillio

A dictionary definition does not employ all of the criteria to necessary to define language. A definition is simply a condensed explanation of the function and the concept. In order to categorize something as a separate language, you must employ the linguistic criteria that permits such.

rockdrummer

hmm.. not from my perspective. The question is really a simple yes or no as to weither you agree with the definition I provided. Lets try again.

Would you agree that the definition below constitutes a language or does Webster have it wrong?

jillio

This is getting absurd. Webster provides a very limited explanation of the nature and function of language as a generic entity. His defintion tells us that English qualifies as a language, and ASL qualifies as a language. To define derivitives of a known language requires more than a dictionary. A baby's cry is also a language in Webster's limited definition, or a dog's bark. However, a baby's cry and a dog's bark cannot be considered in the same way, even though both are communicative.

jillio

I'm going to approach this from another direction. Given your screen name, I'm thinking this might help explain the distinction.

One can take a series of musical note and arrange them in a given way, consistent with the rules of music theory (or sometimes with a slight departure) so that this grouping of notes elicits a desired response from the listener. Let's use a response of excitement as the example. Whether these notes are written on staff paper, played on a violin, or played on a piano, they remain essentially the same language-music-despite superficial differences such as the instrument used. At hte foundation, they are the language of music.

One can then take color and form and technique and elicit the same response--excitement--through a visual medium. This is known as visual art. While the end result is the same response, the language used to elicit that response is different. One is the language of music and one is the language of visual art. An individual feels an emotional response that is identical when exposed to either one of these languages, but the manner in which one processes the information conveyed by the language of music and the manner in which one processes the information conveyed by painting are not one and the same. Do both elicit a response? Yes. Do both communicate a message? Yes. Are both systematic means employed as a method to communicate something? Yes. Are both languages? Yes. Are they the same language? I vehemently answer, no.

By the same token, is a piano, a violin, and the act of placing symbols in a certain order on a piece of staff paper all the language of music? Yes. Does using a harpsichord to transmit the symbol of the language of music make it visual art. No. It is still the language of music. Why? Because it is based on the symbols and the rules specific to the language of music.

rockdrummer

I don't think the questions are absurd. Perhaps you misunderstood the original question. I am not comparing any form of sign language to english or any other language for that matter. The question was simply; are they considered languages based on the definition? From my perspective and per the definition provided, it appears that they are. And by the way, each of the examples you sited are part of the definition provided by Webster. Based on your response I am assuming that your answer is no you don't agree with the definition.

Tousi

Hey, Rockdrummer, didn't I answer the question you were asking? See above a few posts. I said ASL is a stand alone language while Cued, See, etc are not.

rockdrummer

Tousi, I did see your post. Based on the definition I believe they are languages. I guess I am trying to find out where is the substantiation of them not being languages. Both are
Which by definition are languages. Where am I misunderstanding. Show me a source that contradicts what the widley accepted definition of language is.

jillio

Language consists of symbols, such as words or signs, and rules for their combination. Combinations of words must have syntax and semantics. Language must also have surface structure (an underlying representation) and deep structure that expresses the relationship among the ideas in a string of symbols. (That is a paraphrase of the theory proposed by Noam Chomsky, one of the leading linguists of our time).

Therefore, PSE, SEE, CS, and MCE are English, plain and simple.

ASL is not English.

jillio

The definition you posted is not the widely accepted definition. It is simply one limited definiton found on Google.

rockdrummer

Are you saying that Merriam-Webster's definitions are not widely accepted? Google has nothing to do with it. The site is Merriam-Webster Online

rockdrummer

There was never a comparison to english. Only a question as to if they are considered language.

Banjo

SEE and Cued Speech are both manual codes (tools) to visualize English.

English is the language, SEE and Cued Speech are the tools they use to visualize the language of English.

rockdrummer

Thanks Banjo... That actually makes sense to me.