ASL, SEE Sign, & Signed English - Page 4

rockdrummer · 08-24-2006, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnulinuxman

WTF??? I totally disagree here. What have you got against signing in ASL? English isn't a sign language.
WTF does that have to do with interpreters?

Waa waa waa...It isn't THAT important to get it word-for-word. If you must, then tell the interpreter.

Please treat others with more respect in my thread and please try to conduct yourself as an adult. Thank you!

jillio · 08-24-2006, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mookie

All you have to do is to write the English language and teach your kid in ASL verbally. It is not that too hard.

My two-year old daughter can speak full sentences and sign in ASL. My five-year old son can speak very well. There is no barrier between ASL and spoken-language. My kids with bi-language are doing very well. My son is in preschool program at the public elementary school. I was told that they will consider him to enroll into the first or second grade class instead of kindergarten program. I was like

No, I am not kidding. My wife who is HH always teaches our kids the proper langauges and good manners.

What about Math skills? What is so hard to understand the Math language?
What about Science skills? What is so hard to understand the Science formation?
What about Music Skill? What is so hard to learn the type of music?

I am not surprised that people with oralism methods made an effort to lecture hearies that there is no way to improve the deaf oralism student with their knowledgeable in ASL. That is Myth...

That is so right Mookie! When the Deaf schools actually taught English using ASL first, literacy was not a problem. Students read and wrote and understood at the same level as hearing students. When the Oralists forced ASL underground, and Deaf schools stopped teaching using ASL, then the Deaf students started to have problems with literacy.

My son went to a deaf school where many of the teachers are deaf and taught their classes in ASL. He is a college student now and has an A- average. I believe it is because he was taught in the language that was natural for him, and that made learning English easier.

dkf747 · 08-25-2006, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnulinuxman

The terp who won't do this is a college employee and if she requests a different interpreter, she is denied all interpreting services. The interpreter was in a meeting once with both of us, and when I got mad and started signing things to her, the interpreter voiced what I signed for her bosses (they demanded to know what we were talking about), but she refuses to when my fiancee asks her. It's only this one interpreter, but she is the head of the interpreting services, so as I said earlier, she loses all interpreting services if she requests another one.

This sounds like it's time for a lawsuit. They are threatening to take away her access to that school just because she is requesting another interpreter. That is an abuse of her position. I don't normally advocate filing lawsuits, but this sounds like it is the only way to solve the problem.

jillio · 08-25-2006, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkf747

This sounds like it's time for a lawsuit. They are threatening to take away her access to that school just because she is requesting another interpreter. That is an abuse of her position. I don't normally advocate filing lawsuits, but this sounds like it is the only way to solve the problem.

Absolutely. I work in a university in the office of student support and arrange services for all disabled students. She has every right to request another interpreter if the one she has is not fulilling her responsibilities. All terps don't work effectively with all people.

rockdrummer · 08-25-2006, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Absolutely. I work in a university in the office of student support and arrange services for all disabled students. She has every right to request another interpreter if the one she has is not fulilling her responsibilities. All terps don't work effectively with all people.

That's an interesting point. I have seen some terps that work with my son that don't even engage him. You know, just signing to the clouds and looking around, flipping their hair. Signing when he is not watching. It's also an interesting point about what method of signing they use as opposed to what my child is learning in school. I am starting to think that ASL is probably the best language to start with and then use ASL to teach the kids literacy.

jillio · 08-25-2006, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

That's an interesting point. I have seen some terps that work with my son that don't even engage him. You know, just signing to the clouds and looking around, flipping their hair. Signing when he is not watching. It's also an interesting point about what method of signing they use as opposed to what my child is learning in school. I am starting to think that ASL is probably the best language to start with and then use ASL to teach the kids literacy.

That's the road I took with my own son. Of course, everyone has to decide for themselves. I only know that it worked with him. He is currently a sophomore at a major university and maintains a 3.4 GPA. That spells sucess to me!

SxyPorkie · 08-25-2006, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

That's the road I took with my own son. Of course, everyone has to decide for themselves. I only know that it worked with him. He is currently a sophomore at a major university and maintains a 3.4 GPA. That spells sucess to me!

I agree with you.....ASL is best.. more sense and natural...
SxyPorkie

jillio · 08-25-2006, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SxyPorkie

I agree with you.....ASL is best.. more sense and natural...
SxyPorkie

Good to hear from you SxyPorkie!! I was wondering where you had been!

SxyPorkie · 08-25-2006, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Good to hear from you SxyPorkie!! I was wondering where you had been!

Thanks... i had been surfing on some websites and also had problems with my computer.. worked on it...i think it is fine now...
SxyPorkie

SxyPorkie · 08-25-2006, 02:41 PM

Rockdrummer..... I was born HOH but my parents were deaf... so ASL is my first langauge before I learned to speak.... I had learned about SEE I fell asleep from boredom.... ASL with facial expersions is BEST...
SxyPorkie

rockdrummer · 01-03-2007, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SxyPorkie

Rockdrummer..... I was born HOH but my parents were deaf... so ASL is my first langauge before I learned to speak.... I had learned about SEE I fell asleep from boredom.... ASL with facial expersions is BEST...
SxyPorkie

Thanks Porkie. Even if I agree with you how do I go about (or should I) changing what the school is doing. I kind of agree with them in their attempts to use whatever works. However, that doesn't help me with personal communication with my son.

cathartes · 01-06-2007, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

Yes it's helpful. Thanks. From what I gather, ASL is a very efficient language for personal communication. SEE is geared towards teaching literacy and PSE is the in between. I do notice the lack of literacy in some deaf folks but it doesn't mean I cant understand them. There are rare cases that I have encounterd where no matter how many times I read what they said, I just don't understand what they are saying. So I do believe that teaching literacy is a good thing and will help a person achieve more in the world. That applies to hearing and deaf alike. IMO.

This was from a while back but I'd like to comment on it if that's allright?

I wouldn't say literacy depends 100% on whatever sign language is used. I was mainstreamed my whole life with/by pure SEE used by the adults & educators (us kids used our own form of PSE amongst ourselves). Looking back at my fellow students I've personally concluded that parental investment and good-excellent exposure to language seemed very important, irregardless of WHAT language it was.

The reasons were: the few kids who had parents who signed well(all SEE btw) had kids who did significantly better than the kids whose parents did not sign at all. Even if there was one parent or a sibling had some, but low, signing skill, they strongly tended to have low academic/English skill. Even now as adults, those students schooled in strict SEE but had parents who did not sign still have poor literacy.. despite being educated in SEE only. It didn't make much difference if the deaf kid had good or poor oral/lipreading skills either.

None of my fellow students(and me) had deaf parents nor did any have exposure to ASL so I couldn't offer personal comments & comparsions on that. However I have met Deaf students and adults who were raised with ASL as their main speaking language & had excellent literacy- many better than mine even!

It makes sense though, as children apparently have a limited window on learning a language- those parents who did not learn sign probably gave the child no or very little exposure to any language so they didn't get any until they entered school.

Anyways, I understand wanting to make it more consistent for your child, but if you invest that much energy in communicating with your child, he already has a good start. Keep your signing skills honed & TALK with him regularly. Simple things such as shooting the breeze, asking him to tell you about his day have a huge effect. I also second encouraging reading a lot of books. Kids today are so fortunate to have closed captioning, I had to grow up without that!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

My experience with "mainstream" education
Except for pre-school "intervention" programs, deaf children in the public schools don't seem to get any further sign language training, whether it be ASL or SEE, nor do they get training in the correct way to use interpreters. When I was on a long-term sub assignment for a middle school terp, the other staff terp and I were discussing the daily and weekly class schedules. I asked the terp when did the students get their language training. I was informed that there was no such thing as formal classes for instruction in ASL grammar, sign vocabulary building, Deaf history and culture, or how to use assistive technology and interpreters. There were no opportunities to meet, much less associate with, Deaf adults. No "Deaf" related field trips, mentoring programs, clubs, etc. The few deaf classmates that they had were the only deaf people they knew.

Born & raised in California here, graduated in '88. That describes my upbringing & (mainstreamed)education right to the last letter. We went to schools not even a half hour from a residental school for the Deaf. Yet we(or it was just me?) didn't even know schools for the Deaf existed right until high school. And that was only because several of the students who were considered "academic failures" were transferred there instead of going on to the high school mainstreamed program where all of the kids considered "smart" went to. Yep, that's the way the teachers and educators put it to us.

Nice introduction to the larger ASL/Deaf world huh? Took me many years to get over that mental attitude.. sigh. Fortunately I've since seen the light and am trying to get immersed in the culture & improving my ASL. (any tips for Deaf person to learn ASL? I feel strange asking that but I still sign so obviously 'mainstreamed kid')

jillio · 01-10-2007, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eyeth

IMHO, the best way in achieving a high degree in English literacy is to read more. Yes, as funny as it sounds, in order to have a high degree in English ability, you need to be an excellent reader.

This should happen during elementary instruction. The DHH teacher should emphasize reading over auditory/verbal training, cursive writing, singing songs, and whatnot. Reading promotes vocabulary building, how to spot new words and derive definitions, to assimilate idioms and much more. High expectations and parential participation are essential ingredients from which a highly literate DHH person can spring forth.

Funny thing is, whenever I meet old friends from my FSD days, they always invariably remark how much time I've spent in the library, and now wished they did the same. And I would invariably wish I've spent more time participating in sports & activities, being more 'social', etc.! And we would laugh about it and move on.

WELL SAID. Reading also allows a child to develop basic understanding that a particular printed word, and the sign equivilent, are both merely symbols used to represent the same context. That understanding is crucial to developing literacy.

jasin · 02-14-2007, 09:34 PM

SEE is suppose to make sign language easier to understand and learn. I don't like it myself because its to much like English. Sign should not be like English it should be foreign, it is a foreign language. Sign language should be foreign to everyone execept those who learn it, interpeters, and deaf people.

rockdrummer · 02-15-2007, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasin

SEE is suppose to make sign language easier to understand and learn. I don't like it myself because its to much like English. Sign should not be like English it should be foreign, it is a foreign language. Sign language should be foreign to everyone execept those who learn it, interpeters, and deaf people.

I'm not sure that is the intent of SEE. SEE stands for Signed Exact English which is why it's to much like english. The term "sign language" nowadays means several methods. My take is that SEE is designed to teach deaf kids exact english. Not to improve their signing skills but to help them learn literacy. I think that all would agree that using SEE for interpersonal communications (compared to ASL) is quite cumbersome.

jillio · 02-15-2007, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SB_GB_4ever

I prefer PSE that is what i have learned and am still learning. For hearing people like me ASL is ver easy to sign but very hard to understand. I would go with PSE.

That is really the whole point, and the problem with hearing people deciding policy for the education fo deaf children. You find PSE easier because you are hearing and your native language is English. Even when you use a manual language, such as PSE or SEE, you categorize with you native oral language as your reference opint. You tend to structure the signs in a way that complies with the rules of English.

ASL is a visual, spatial language, and is processed cognitively in a different manner than is an oral language. It has no oral reference point. When you attempt to extract meaning from ASL using an orally based reference language, its syntax becomes confusing.

What is easier for the hearing population is more difficult for the deaf population. Deaf individuals who are prelingually deafened, or more particulrly, deaf since birth are visual. They interpret their world visually. What makes sense in a visual mode does not readily translate to an oral auditory mode. Simply making English visable does not increase comprehension, because the sequencing is different. English can be made visable through writing, as well, but it is still dependent upon the oral auditory syntax and sequencing, and therefore is not made into a visual spatial language simply because the eye can perceive the symbols on a page. It is more than that. It has to do with the way the brain processes the inofrmation available, and the way the brain automatically categorizes and classifies the information coming in.

jillio · 02-15-2007, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ismi

Can you explain what you mean by this? Do you mean that students should study the language in which they are being taught other subjects, or something else?

In response to other posters: as far as SEE being artificial ... that's true. But then, there are many creoles that have started in similar ways that have become quite popular, even to the point of becoming the native language of a statistically significant population.

You are confused about the definition of a creole language. See is artificially created, and complies with English grammatical rules, pragmatics, and syntax. A creole language is a naturally occurring evolutionary process, and the creole language develops its own set of rules for usage that do not comply with the original language rules. Creoles are also 2nd generation, or 3rd generation evolutions of an original pidgin language.

shel90 · 02-15-2007, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cathartes

This was from a while back but I'd like to comment on it if that's allright?

I wouldn't say literacy depends 100% on whatever sign language is used. I was mainstreamed my whole life with/by pure SEE used by the adults & educators (us kids used our own form of PSE amongst ourselves). Looking back at my fellow students I've personally concluded that parental investment and good-excellent exposure to language seemed very important, irregardless of WHAT language it was.

The reasons were: the few kids who had parents who signed well(all SEE btw) had kids who did significantly better than the kids whose parents did not sign at all. Even if there was one parent or a sibling had some, but low, signing skill, they strongly tended to have low academic/English skill. Even now as adults, those students schooled in strict SEE but had parents who did not sign still have poor literacy.. despite being educated in SEE only. It didn't make much difference if the deaf kid had good or poor oral/lipreading skills either.

None of my fellow students(and me) had deaf parents nor did any have exposure to ASL so I couldn't offer personal comments & comparsions on that. However I have met Deaf students and adults who were raised with ASL as their main speaking language & had excellent literacy- many better than mine even!

It makes sense though, as children apparently have a limited window on learning a language- those parents who did not learn sign probably gave the child no or very little exposure to any language so they didn't get any until they entered school.

Anyways, I understand wanting to make it more consistent for your child, but if you invest that much energy in communicating with your child, he already has a good start. Keep your signing skills honed & TALK with him regularly. Simple things such as shooting the breeze, asking him to tell you about his day have a huge effect. I also second encouraging reading a lot of books. Kids today are so fortunate to have closed captioning, I had to grow up without that!

Born & raised in California here, graduated in '88. That describes my upbringing & (mainstreamed)education right to the last letter. We went to schools not even a half hour from a residental school for the Deaf. Yet we(or it was just me?) didn't even know schools for the Deaf existed right until high school. And that was only because several of the students who were considered "academic failures" were transferred there instead of going on to the high school mainstreamed program where all of the kids considered "smart" went to. Yep, that's the way the teachers and educators put it to us.

Nice introduction to the larger ASL/Deaf world huh? Took me many years to get over that mental attitude.. sigh. Fortunately I've since seen the light and am trying to get immersed in the culture & improving my ASL. (any tips for Deaf person to learn ASL? I feel strange asking that but I still sign so obviously 'mainstreamed kid')

Very

Everything u stated is what I have been trying to get the parents of the students at the school where I work at to understand. Most of them are so intent on making their children successful with listening and speaking skills rather than focusing on working with their children to improve their literacy skills so as a resullt, many of our students are struggling with literacy due to lack of support at home. It seems that the mentally of being able to speak and understand spoken English whether it is via lipreading or listening thru the aids, that is considered success. Unfortunately, the important of literacy is pratically ignored and it is very frustrating for many of us teachers.

We use ASL for instruction for several reasons mentioned in previous posts.

As for deaf children improving literacy skills, they need a strong first language whether it is thru auditority or visual so I believe that for a visual language, ASL should be the language rather than SEE and PSE. Then, once the child masters ASL, learning a 2nd language becomes easier.

This is a very insightful thread with great information.

As for myself, I have to agree with Skyportie..when someone signs SEE to me, I am totally lost even though English is my first language..I just can not understand it in signed form. Also, I fall asleep cuz it is hard on my eyes and my brain to constantly figure out the context of the sentences. With ASL, I am able to easily grasp the context and message being delivered to me. However, when someone writes English using ASL grammatical rules, I get lost trying to read it. I need written English to follow the grammatical rules of English. Interesting isnt it?

As for your introduction to the ASL/Deaf World..I was in the exact same shoes as u are growing up. Finally, I got immersed in the deaf culture even though I am not 100% accepted but that is fine with me.

shel90 · 02-15-2007, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

That is really the whole point, and the problem with hearing people deciding policy for the education fo deaf children. You find PSE easier because you are hearing and your native language is English. Even when you use a manual language, such as PSE or SEE, you categorize with you native oral language as your reference opint. You tend to structure the signs in a way that complies with the rules of English.

ASL is a visual, spatial language, and is processed cognitively in a different manner than is an oral language. It has no oral reference point. When you attempt to extract meaning from ASL using an orally based reference language, its syntax becomes confusing.

What is easier for the hearing population is more difficult for the deaf population. Deaf individuals who are prelingually deafened, or more particulrly, deaf since birth are visual. They interpret their world visually. What makes sense in a visual mode does not readily translate to an oral auditory mode. Simply making English visable does not increase comprehension, because the sequencing is different. English can be made visable through writing, as well, but it is still dependent upon the oral auditory syntax and sequencing, and therefore is not made into a visual spatial language simply because the eye can perceive the symbols on a page. It is more than that. It has to do with the way the brain processes the inofrmation available, and the way the brain automatically categorizes and classifies the information coming in.

I agree with u.

my2boyz · 02-18-2007, 06:55 PM

I am a hearing mother of a HOH son. my baby was born with a severe hearing loss. At first this was very devistating and heart breaking only because i knew nothing of the deaf community and I had no idea of what i was supposed to do as a mother. I woke up one day quit crying and said ok....1st I need to learn sign language.. I bought books and had a tutor who was teaching me, my baby, my other son and husband see sign. I went to the local community college to learn ASL. I put my son in a Oral program because he has always babbled that told me he wanted to speak. I get mixed up with the grammical part of ASL but i understand it far better!!!!! my children do fine. I stay home and sign while speaking with my children. he will never be accepted into the deaf community but thats ok..I never want to not be able to have communication with my baby!!! Hearing aids break, get lost yadda yadda. In the end I want my son to know that i did what ever i could to help him not only in the hearing world but also I try to introduce him to the deaf community. I take him to ASL story times and play days.. Again Eveything Starts At Home... What works for me might not work for you. Any communication is good communication!!!

deafdyke · 02-18-2007, 10:12 PM

Quote:

he will never be accepted into the deaf community but thats ok.

Not nessarily. I mean there ARE some hardcore Deafies who think that anyone who has oral skills isn't "really deaf." But as long as you expose your son to Sign and everything, and don't make the mistake of falling into the "oral only is perfect" trap, he'll find quite a bit of acceptance in the deaf comminity.

shel90 · 02-18-2007, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafdyke

Not nessarily. I mean there ARE some hardcore Deafies who think that anyone who has oral skills isn't "really deaf." But as long as you expose your son to Sign and everything, and don't make the mistake of falling into the "oral only is perfect" trap, he'll find quite a bit of acceptance in the deaf comminity.

I agree. Your son will be accepted in the deaf community one way or the other.

I am not fully accepted in the deaf community but I dont give a rat's ass anymore. I have found deaf people who are like me who grew up oral only and learned ASL later so we all bonded and then I have my hubby and kids. If the extreminists do not accept me, that is their loss cuz I am a good person and have lots to offer. Not the end of the world.

However, I do not participate in the hearing world much anymore except with family or work-related issues. I am more comfortable in an signing environment than in an auditory environment due to my inability to understand large group conversations.

my2boyz · 02-18-2007, 10:36 PM

Again i think any communication is good communication. I know several people who are deaf and NO ONE in their families took the time to learn sign and they have no one!!! They isolate theirselfs and want nothing to do with any one! I do like my sons oral program but i also think ASL is just as important!!! I get people who look at me when I sign and talk to my boys in the store and my 3 year old will ask why is that lady looking at us i simply say she dont know no better her parents never taught her manners!!

08-25-2006, 02:41 PM	#100 (permalink)
SxyPorkie SxyPorkie Join Date: May 2006 Location: Southern California Posts: 3,095	Rockdrummer..... I was born HOH but my parents were deaf... so ASL is my first langauge before I learned to speak.... I had learned about SEE I fell asleep from boredom.... ASL with facial expersions is BEST... SxyPorkie __________________ Life Goes On!!

02-18-2007, 06:55 PM	#110 (permalink)
my2boyz Registered User Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 7	Any Communication Is Good Communicatio!! I am a hearing mother of a HOH son. my baby was born with a severe hearing loss. At first this was very devistating and heart breaking only because i knew nothing of the deaf community and I had no idea of what i was supposed to do as a mother. I woke up one day quit crying and said ok....1st I need to learn sign language.. I bought books and had a tutor who was teaching me, my baby, my other son and husband see sign. I went to the local community college to learn ASL. I put my son in a Oral program because he has always babbled that told me he wanted to speak. I get mixed up with the grammical part of ASL but i understand it far better!!!!! my children do fine. I stay home and sign while speaking with my children. he will never be accepted into the deaf community but thats ok..I never want to not be able to have communication with my baby!!! Hearing aids break, get lost yadda yadda. In the end I want my son to know that i did what ever i could to help him not only in the hearing world but also I try to introduce him to the deaf community. I take him to ASL story times and play days.. Again Eveything Starts At Home... What works for me might not work for you. Any communication is good communication!!! __________________ *Like me, Love me, or hate me....I'm still ME!!*

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02-14-2007, 09:34 PM	#104 (permalink)
jasin Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Puyallup, Washington Posts: 779	SEE is suppose to make sign language easier to understand and learn. I don't like it myself because its to much like English. Sign should not be like English it should be foreign, it is a foreign language. Sign language should be foreign to everyone execept those who learn it, interpeters, and deaf people.