Double Standards? Oralism And Asl?

Deaf Images · 05-07-2006, 12:59 PM

[color=Red][b] I have a question for you, friends. I live in a town that has 5 oral programs. I would call it the audist capital of world right here in this town.

Is it a double standard for someone who promotes oral school program and teach ASL at a community college? How do you interpret that? The oral school does not promote ASL in classroom, thus that teacher teaches ASL. Is it a double standard? It is an issue that needs to be debated.

This is going to be fun to explore that one.

Thanks!

Passivist · 05-07-2006, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deaf Images

[color=Red][b] I have a question for you, friends. I live in a town that has 5 oral programs. I would call it the audist capital of world right here in this town.

Is it a double standard for someone who promotes oral school program and teach ASL at a community college? How do you interpret that? The oral school does not promote ASL in classroom, thus that teacher teaches ASL. Is it a double standard? It is an issue that needs to be debated.

This is going to be fun to explore that one.

Thanks!

I fear this is yet another 'deafist' attack on oralism. Without links and going into the issue we cannot know why oral usage is a priority there, whether it is because they hate sign language, or whether, parents bodies prefer an oral approach. If the latter, then this is simply reflecting choice. Which we all support as a matter of course, just as we would if the alleged area was supporting a total sign (ASL), approach. There's really no place for crying wolf everytime an oral approach is supported.

neecy · 05-07-2006, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Passivist

I fear this is yet another 'deafist' attack on oralism. Without links and going into the issue we cannot know why oral usage is a priority there, whether it is because they hate sign language, or whether, parents bodies prefer an oral approach. If the latter, then this is simply reflecting choice. Which we all support as a matter of course, just as we would if the alleged area was supporting a total sign (ASL), approach. There's really no place for crying wolf everytime an oral approach is supported.

Well said. I see nothing "double standardish" about it. Education needs are set by the parents and if they want their children taught orally then that's what will happen. Saying its a double standard is like accusing a person who works at Ford for being disloyal because he drives a chevy truck.

Endymion · 05-07-2006, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deaf Images

[color=Red][b] I have a question for you, friends. I live in a town that has 5 oral programs. I would call it the audist capital of world right here in this town.

Is it a double standard for someone who promotes oral school program and teach ASL at a community college? How do you interpret that? The oral school does not promote ASL in classroom, thus that teacher teaches ASL. Is it a double standard? It is an issue that needs to be debated.

This is going to be fun to explore that one.

Thanks!

What if someone can support both? I know many DOD families that promote speech and sign both. Isn't that true with the Rosen family? I like that the idea of doing both allows us to keep our cultural identity. (Think of parents who would just teach speech only otherwise.)

Passivist · 05-08-2006, 01:08 PM

We were discussing educational approaches recently on one UK site, should sign be primary ? oral primary ? should either system have our support ? Should we take notice of the Deaf community, or equip deaf children with the tools they are going to need regardless ? Basically most agreed that sign alone simply wasn't enough, it wasn't an attack on the culture or anything, but a frank admission of the reality on leaving school or University.

Given work e.g. revolves around an ability to effectively communicate with minimum assistance, and employers (In the UK anyway), saw sign as a 'dependancy' mode, the employer then formed the view a deaf person is a possible 'liability' and an employee THEY would have to support, which they said wasn't their role, nor had they the time or finance to do it, that, they argued was the school's job, to equip future workers with the tools they need to work..

Most agreed a dual educational approach should ALWAYS be followed with few exceptions except for those for whom one mode or other is impossible for them to attain. Parents are the THIRD and most important factor here, much is made of 'Deaf' and deaf and culture and sign etc, but the decision-makers are none of these, but the parent, most appear confused or adopt a view and/or is best, we need some unity, ANY unity from the relative sectors so advances can be made, there's too much politics in the deaf world, deaf children are the casualties of this. You can oralise, you can sign it isn't the end of the world....

deafdyke · 05-08-2006, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Most agreed a dual educational approach should ALWAYS be followed with few exceptions except for those for whom one mode or other is impossible for them to attain. Parents are the THIRD and most important factor here, much is made of 'Deaf' and deaf and culture and sign etc, but the decision-makers are none of these, but the parent, most appear confused or adopt a view and/or is best, we need some unity, ANY unity from the relative sectors so advances can be made, there's too much politics in the deaf world, deaf children are the casualties of this. You can oralise, you can sign it isn't the end of the world....

Precisely! The two methodologies aren't incompatible. That said, if you read Volta Voices, sometimes you get the vibe that the oralists are all about being "healthy and normal" (eg YAY! Our dhh kids don't need the "crutch" of Sign!)
I know research has indicated that most orally educated kids DO eventually learn Sign. Deaf Images, some parents HAVEN'T bought into the healthy normal rhtoric....Some of them may be giving their child an oral education b/c they think that a TC education does not adquatly focus enough on speech skills. I undy where you're coming from, and I do think there are folks who are still in extreme denial or who haven't psychologically come to terms with their dhh kids' loss.....but the two methodlogies aren't incompatible!

rockdrummer · 05-08-2006, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deaf Images

[color=Red][b] I have a question for you, friends. I live in a town that has 5 oral programs. I would call it the audist capital of world right here in this town.Is it a double standard for someone who promotes oral school program and teach ASL at a community college? How do you interpret that? The oral school does not promote ASL in classroom, thus that teacher teaches ASL. Is it a double standard? It is an issue that needs to be debated.This is going to be fun to explore that one.Thanks!

What is wrong with teaching both? They are damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they don't offer ASL then there will be those that have a problem with that. If they don't teach oral methods, there will be those that have a problem with that. So they teach both probably in an attempt to reach more people and satisfy the needs of many. So what is wrong with this. Maybe I am missing something here. Are the ASL classes taught after school hours on a volunteer basis? Need more details to form an opinion.

Sweetmind · 05-09-2006, 12:35 AM

Quote:

What is wrong with teaching both? They are damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they don't offer ASL then there will be those that have a problem with that. If they don't teach oral methods, there will be those that have a problem with that. So they teach both probably in an attempt to reach more people and satisfy the needs of many. So what is wrong with this. Maybe I am missing something here. Are the ASL classes taught after school hours on a volunteer basis? Need more details to form an opinion.

ASL was never teaching both in the classrooms in Oral deaf school. I find this is really outrageous for not having ASL in oral deaf school. All they do is ORAL METHOD RULES.

Believe it or not! Deaf children are not allowed to have ASL while it s okay for Hearing people have ASL in college.. Now u see the difference.. Why do they taking our ASL away from Deaf children that is our true language from the classrooms. It is actually help Deaf children who will understand the concept of language better before learning English and orally speaking as survival kits. Speech therapy should be stay in the speech classes not in every classrooms because there is their intention to have those Deaf children s education to be behind as usual.

Oralism teacher or professional do not have any respect for Deaf children 's true feelings to express that they forced them to speak in front of their Deaf students with their deaf voices, read their lip that is not even more than 35 percent to understand and listen to a real stupid devices that they cannot hear everything. It is not gonna to make any difference anymore. Thats how they keep them on hold from learning more new things. and make it look more disabled on Deaf children that cannot learn very well.

Now you can see why I opposed those oral method that still exist and carry on and on that is still old routine cycle with CI in today's.

All you worry about their orally speaking to be perfect and forgot their importance of their Education needs to come first.

Thats ORALISM DOUBLE STANDARDS as is. They did it on purpose for years and years. NO EXCUSES to be forced and conform those d/Deaf children s true identity and destroy their self esteem for no reason.

That's double standards of Oralism but I ll say Triple standards of Oralism. instead..

ZERO TOLERATION!!!

Thank you!

Sweetmind

Deaf Images · 05-09-2006, 12:44 AM

Very good point! Sweetmind

gnulinuxman · 05-09-2006, 01:43 AM

Good point, Sweetmind.

Passivist · 05-09-2006, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweetmind

ASL was never teaching both in the classrooms in Oral deaf school. I find this is really outrageous for not having ASL in oral deaf school. All they do is ORAL METHOD RULES.

Believe it or not! Deaf children are not allowed to have ASL while it s okay for Hearing people have ASL in college.. Now u see the difference.. Why do they taking our ASL away from Deaf children that is our true language from the classrooms. It is actually help Deaf children who will understand the concept of language better before learning English and orally speaking as survival kits. Speech therapy should be stay in the speech classes not in every classrooms because there is their intention to have those Deaf children s education to be behind as usual.

Oralism teacher or professional do not have any respect for Deaf children 's true feelings to express that they forced them to speak in front of their Deaf students with their deaf voices, read their lip that is not even more than 35 percent to understand and listen to a real stupid devices that they cannot hear everything. It is not gonna to make any difference anymore. Thats how they keep them on hold from learning more new things. and make it look more disabled on Deaf children that cannot learn very well.

Now you can see why I opposed those oral method that still exist and carry on and on that is still old routine cycle with CI in today's.

All you worry about their orally speaking to be perfect and forgot their importance of their Education needs to come first.

Thats ORALISM DOUBLE STANDARDS as is. They did it on purpose for years and years. NO EXCUSES to be forced and conform those d/Deaf children s true identity and destroy their self esteem for no reason.

That's double standards of Oralism but I ll say Triple standards of Oralism. instead..

ZERO TOLERATION!!!

Thank you!

Sweetmind

Oralism may have been an enforced mode before, no-one is going to argue that point with you, but the fact systems/parents are choosing it as a mode (Or choosing ASL that's their right too), should be respected not attacked, unless deaf activisim wants to be seen as anti-free choice. What puzzles many, is seeing these vitriolic attacks on non-signing or dual approaches to deaf education, just to replace it, with a system that opposes choice, and wants to 'enforce' some conformity on people. Being as you are in the land of the free, it has no way of succeeding, choice is the primary need, you can't attack it because you don't agree with it, well, I suppose you can, but don't expect any win situation. Why are some dedicated sign users,so afraid of choice ? Do they suspect people will use it ? and desert the deaf world ? They'll still be deaf. If there is a desire to emerge into the mainstream of the world and be part of it, we should be wishing them all the best. Who knows they may well find the whole hearing world hasn't got it in for them......

Sweetmind · 05-09-2006, 05:28 AM

I dont agree people have their place to turn against our true language however, it s our hands to communicate that no one can tied our hands and hush up anymore.

We Deaf driver are the best driver so what does it tells you. We are using our eye visualization very well while you dont have that since u were hearing as I believe you are.

Thats our adaptation of being deaf. I hope you ll get it.

You cannot come here to make an excuses about our hands to communicate and force them to listen with devices. I find this is a real joke to make their excuse to fail us on purpose.

I m so sick of this crap.

Thank you!

Sweetmind

Eve · 05-09-2006, 09:12 AM

This situation seems not so much "double standards" as "total communication".

Passivist · 05-09-2006, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweetmind

I dont agree people have their place to turn against our true language however, it s our hands to communicate that no one can tied our hands and hush up anymore.

We Deaf driver are the best driver so what does it tells you. We are using our eye visualization very well while you dont have that since u were hearing as I believe you are.

Thats our adaptation of being deaf. I hope you ll get it.

You cannot come here to make an excuses about our hands to communicate and force them to listen with devices. I find this is a real joke to make their excuse to fail us on purpose.

I m so sick of this crap.

Thank you!

Sweetmind

I don't think anyone is attacking sign language or your culture, just suggesting, that taking your hands off the wheel when you are driving is dangerous ! Some deaf people cannot think outside the deaf 'box', next time I run someone down in my car because I was signing to someone, I am sure, the court will see its way clear, to letting me off, (It would obviously be audism or discrimination to suggest I cannot sign, and an attack on deaf culture otherwise !). Can you NOW see what is being said ? it's a safety issue not a signing one.

I cannot really comment on the USA driving law, here, it is illegal to drive with hands off the steering wheel, they make no exceptions.

Eve · 05-09-2006, 10:42 AM

Passivist, I hate to be the one to tell you this, but....you are arguing with a fencepost here. Some people refuse to ever look outside their own little box.

05-09-2006, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Passivist

I don't think anyone is attacking sign language or your culture, just suggesting, that taking your hands off the wheel when you are driving is dangerous ! Some deaf people cannot think outside the deaf 'box', next time I run someone down in my car because I was signing to someone, I am sure, the court will see its way clear, to letting me off, (It would obviously be audism or discrimination to suggest I cannot sign, and an attack on deaf culture otherwise !). Can you NOW see what is being said ? it's a safety issue not a signing one.

I cannot really comment on the USA driving law, here, it is illegal to drive with hands off the steering wheel, they make no exceptions.

Really?

You better ensure that your eyes constantly stays on the roads. Never move your eyes direclty to your passengers while talking. No food or drinks in your hands.....

Liebling:-))) · 05-09-2006, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweetmind

ASL was never teaching both in the classrooms in Oral deaf school. I find this is really outrageous for not having ASL in oral deaf school. All they do is ORAL METHOD RULES.

Believe it or not! Deaf children are not allowed to have ASL while it s okay for Hearing people have ASL in college.. Now u see the difference.. Why do they taking our ASL away from Deaf children that is our true language from the classrooms. It is actually help Deaf children who will understand the concept of language better before learning English and orally speaking as survival kits. Speech therapy should be stay in the speech classes not in every classrooms because there is their intention to have those Deaf children s education to be behind as usual.

Oralism teacher or professional do not have any respect for Deaf children 's true feelings to express that they forced them to speak in front of their Deaf students with their deaf voices, read their lip that is not even more than 35 percent to understand and listen to a real stupid devices that they cannot hear everything. It is not gonna to make any difference anymore. Thats how they keep them on hold from learning more new things. and make it look more disabled on Deaf children that cannot learn very well.
Now you can see why I opposed those oral method that still exist and carry on and on that is still old routine cycle with CI in today's.

All you worry about their orally speaking to be perfect and forgot their importance of their Education needs to come first.

Thats ORALISM DOUBLE STANDARDS as is. They did it on purpose for years and years. NO EXCUSES to be forced and conform those d/Deaf children s true identity and destroy their self esteem for no reason.

That's double standards of Oralism but I ll say Triple standards of Oralism. instead..

ZERO TOLERATION!!!

Thank you!

Sweetmind

I´m agree to this totally.

My teacher use BSL during lesson time and speech therapy twice a week... It make me consider more because I understand what teacher want to teach us about.

Until one day, we went to swimming contest with other deaf and oral schools... We saw some of students use oral with no sign... They use sign language when their teachers are not around... On next day, after swimming contest, we complaint to our teacher to stop sign because we want to learn to be oral like students at school... Teacher said Okay, she spoke slowly for us without use sign... We realized how stress we are to try to consider teacher´s lip for an around 15 minutes.. We gave up and told her to use sign instead of oral... Teacher is *smile* (I know she only tested us) because she was not surprised that we need sign to help us understand more than learn to read their lips. Do speech therapy twice a week to learn to read lips and speak is good enough.

Accord my hubby!

He was raised oral and told me that it´s too stress for him to read teacher´s lip and depend on teacher´s lip more than he learn anything. Accord parents´s wish, to not use sign... Now many hearing parents want their deaf children use sign during lesson... Now is much better than old times.

deafdyke · 05-09-2006, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Why are some dedicated sign users,so afraid of choice ? Do they suspect people will use it ? and desert the deaf world ? They'll still be deaf. If there is a desire to emerge into the mainstream of the world and be part of it, we should be wishing them all the best. Who knows they may well find the whole hearing world hasn't got it in for them......

No idear Passifist. Maybe it's just b/c in some extreme Deaf circles it's almost trendy to be anti-hearing. Personally, I think that hearing parents and experts need to realize that they SHOULDN"T try to goad a child into communication preferences The end goal of almost EVERY dhh kids' IEP should be to have a completely full communication box.
Yes, parents have the right to initially pick which language should be their child's first language, but they should not build biases. What exactly is SO WRONG about getting a dhh kid BILINGAL? Imagine if NAD said to hearing parents " Look! Your dhh kid can be BILINGAL, fluent in both ASL and English!"
Also Passifist, too many hoh kids have been pushed into the hearing mainstream for years and years now. I know many dhh people are glad that they can function in the mainstream.......but what parents and experts miss, is that very very few of us who were immersed in the mainstream feel like we totally belong 100% in the mainstream. We also need access to the Deaf world as well!

sr171soars · 05-09-2006, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafdyke

...
Also Passifist, too many hoh kids have been pushed into the hearing mainstream for years and years now. I know many dhh people are glad that they can function in the mainstream.......but what parents and experts miss, is that very very few of us who were immersed in the mainstream feel like we totally belong 100% in the mainstream. We also need access to the Deaf world as well!

Ummm....interesting point. I guess I'm one of the few...

Deaf Images · 05-09-2006, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

He was raised oral and told me that it´s too stress for him to read teacher´s lip and depend on teacher´s lip more than he learn anything. Accord parents´s wish, to not use sign... Now many hearing parents want their deaf children use sign during lesson... Now is much better than old times.

Exactly.. it has been stressful reading lips...and also frustrating when I chose ASL and teachers get MAD and slapped a wooden ruler on my hands to make their stupid point.

Eve · 05-10-2006, 12:19 AM

Hmmmm maybe, just maybe, this is one of those "to each his own" type situations. You see, my husband was raised orally and he can't imagine having been limited to solely ASL for his communication needs. He is now a successful, independent man, who can achieve in the deaf world OR the hearing world. He knows no limits. I am glad his mother chose the path she did for him.

Deaf Images · 05-10-2006, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eve

Hmmmm maybe, just maybe, this is one of those "to each his own" type situations. You see, my husband was raised orally and he can't imagine having been limited to solely ASL for his communication needs. He is now a successful, independent man, who can achieve in the deaf world OR the hearing world. He knows no limits. I am glad his mother chose the path she did for him.

Guess what? I guess oralists have to spend more $ on aspirins from having so many headaches while reading lips.... ASL users spend less on it...
would that be a wonder?

Many Deaf are successful in either worlds so please don't patronize us!

Thanks!

Fragmenter · 05-10-2006, 01:05 AM

Then the Deaf people has spent so much $ on caffeine to stay awake after a long day struggling with the world

Seriously, there is no right and wrong. Never has and never will...

Agree to disagree. Agree to disagree. Agree to disagree. Repeat that and life will be easier when you're surfing on AllDeaf.com

Eve · 05-10-2006, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deaf Images

Guess what? I guess oralists have to spend more $ on aspirins from having so many headaches while reading lips....

It was obviously only a GUESS on your part. Oh, and might I point out that I gave a specific example, I did NOT stereotype anyone by saying this is how ALL oralists perform.

Sweetmind · 05-10-2006, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Exactly.. it has been stressful reading lips...and also frustrating when I chose ASL and teachers get MAD and slapped a wooden ruler on my hands to make their stupid point.

YEP yep YEPPIE!!! I was the one of them who slapped a wooden ruler on my hands to make their stupid point, too.

Also, I dont agree AUDISM teachers have the right to grade on us for our speech classes.. How would you feel that it hurts Deaf person get an D or F? He just cannot help it and couldnt speak with a very harsh or very high pitch deaf voice that can scare people away? I felt so bad for this guy because he knew it s not doing any good for him to speak. He is smarter than that. Audism teacher is so rude and disrespect toward deafies that is not necessary . I wish I did stand up for him and tell the teacher off but I didnt at that time. JEEZ! That s a very nasty bigotry attitude. SCOFFS!!

I can understand why some deafies refuse to speak and I dont blame them.

Everything is so negative toward Deaf people about a very stupid grade on their orally speaking.. No ne

05-07-2006, 12:59 PM	#1 (permalink)
Deaf Images STAMP OUT AUDISM! Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: in a town that has a pull tab Posts: 173 Blog Entries: 1	Double Standards? Oralism And Asl? [color=Red][b] I have a question for you, friends. I live in a town that has 5 oral programs. I would call it the audist capital of world right here in this town. Is it a double standard for someone who promotes oral school program and teach ASL at a community college? How do you interpret that? The oral school does not promote ASL in classroom, thus that teacher teaches ASL. Is it a double standard? It is an issue that needs to be debated. This is going to be fun to explore that one. Thanks!

05-09-2006, 12:44 AM	#9 (permalink)
Deaf Images STAMP OUT AUDISM! Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: in a town that has a pull tab Posts: 173 Blog Entries: 1	Very Good Point, Sweetmind Very good point! Sweetmind

05-09-2006, 01:43 AM	#10 (permalink)
gnulinuxman Registered User Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 1,740	Good point, Sweetmind. __________________ --Danny

05-10-2006, 01:05 AM	#23 (permalink)
Fragmenter wannabe redneck Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Lexington, KY Posts: 823	Then the Deaf people has spent so much $ on caffeine to stay awake after a long day struggling with the world Seriously, there is no right and wrong. Never has and never will... Agree to disagree. Agree to disagree. Agree to disagree. Repeat that and life will be easier when you're surfing on AllDeaf.com __________________ Please don't feed the Trolls. They are for your viewing entertainment only. Thank you.

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05-08-2006, 01:08 PM	#5 (permalink)
Passivist Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 242	We were discussing educational approaches recently on one UK site, should sign be primary ? oral primary ? should either system have our support ? Should we take notice of the Deaf community, or equip deaf children with the tools they are going to need regardless ? Basically most agreed that sign alone simply wasn't enough, it wasn't an attack on the culture or anything, but a frank admission of the reality on leaving school or University. Given work e.g. revolves around an ability to effectively communicate with minimum assistance, and employers (In the UK anyway), saw sign as a 'dependancy' mode, the employer then formed the view a deaf person is a possible 'liability' and an employee THEY would have to support, which they said wasn't their role, nor had they the time or finance to do it, that, they argued was the school's job, to equip future workers with the tools they need to work.. Most agreed a dual educational approach should ALWAYS be followed with few exceptions except for those for whom one mode or other is impossible for them to attain. Parents are the THIRD and most important factor here, much is made of 'Deaf' and deaf and culture and sign etc, but the decision-makers are none of these, but the parent, most appear confused or adopt a view and/or is best, we need some unity, ANY unity from the relative sectors so advances can be made, there's too much politics in the deaf world, deaf children are the casualties of this. You can oralise, you can sign it isn't the end of the world....

05-09-2006, 05:28 AM	#12 (permalink)
Sweetmind Registered User Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 788	I dont agree people have their place to turn against our true language however, it s our hands to communicate that no one can tied our hands and hush up anymore. We Deaf driver are the best driver so what does it tells you. We are using our eye visualization very well while you dont have that since u were hearing as I believe you are. Thats our adaptation of being deaf. I hope you ll get it. You cannot come here to make an excuses about our hands to communicate and force them to listen with devices. I find this is a real joke to make their excuse to fail us on purpose. I m so sick of this crap. Thank you! Sweetmind

05-09-2006, 09:12 AM	#13 (permalink)
Eve Goddess Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Paradise Posts: 1,125	This situation seems not so much "double standards" as "total communication".

05-09-2006, 10:42 AM	#15 (permalink)
Eve Goddess Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Paradise Posts: 1,125	Passivist, I hate to be the one to tell you this, but....you are arguing with a fencepost here. Some people refuse to ever look outside their own little box.

05-10-2006, 12:19 AM	#21 (permalink)
Eve Goddess Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Paradise Posts: 1,125	Hmmmm maybe, just maybe, this is one of those "to each his own" type situations. You see, my husband was raised orally and he can't imagine having been limited to solely ASL for his communication needs. He is now a successful, independent man, who can achieve in the deaf world OR the hearing world. He knows no limits. I am glad his mother chose the path she did for him.