Hypocritical?

deafdyke · 04-26-2003, 01:50 AM

Some of you may be familiar with Hearing Exchange. (aka the Oral-only at all costs, b/c we want our children to superfically appear normal at all costs b/c we are high heeled yuppies Messageboard
I lurk there occasionally as a voice from the real world (as opposed to the post-lingally deafened world) resource for parents who may think that oral-only is enough for their sweet darling deaf and hoh kids. Today I got a PM from the person who runs the site, and she told me to stop posting about other options besides oral only.
Yet whenever someone new comes along she's there pushing oral schools, membership in AGBell, speech therapy, auditory-verbal therapy and so on! Don't you think that's a little bit hypocritical of her to bash on me about my posting about other options? (for instance I'll post encouraging a parent of a newly dx child with a mild loss to explore ALL options (ASL and cued speech and things like that) not just auditory training or things like that)

bbnt · 04-26-2003, 02:04 AM

When it comes to deaf children ALL opitions should be put on the table for parents to look at

deafdyke · 04-26-2003, 03:10 AM

Quote:

When it comes to deaf children ALL opitions should be put on the table for parents to look at

And not just traditionally deaf kids...hoh and late-deafened kids should ALSO get to benifit from things like CS and ASL. Over there they have the attitude that hoh kids have more in common with hearing then with deaf (a belief which I find utter and complete bullshit as I am just as much deaf as I am hearing!)
I also think that parents should not go with the thinking that it's one way or nothing. Parents should expose their kids to as many choices as possible rather then limiting kids to just one sphere.
I seriously would not be surprised to find out that HE gets a lot of donations and support and stuff from hearing aid and CI companies!

04-26-2003, 07:13 AM

Frankly, that really does suck. I really wish that parents would explore all options so that they can make educated decisions based on what they think would be best for their kids. This owner shouldn't chide you for trying to suggest that to the parents. Shame on him. It amazes me because I teach ASL to HEARING KIDS aged 7 to 16 at a homeschooling academy, and the parents said that the kids totally love the classes. The parents said that they think the ASL classes really help them to express themselves in other way. But of course, there will always be audists out there who thinks they know what is best, and try to impose that on others without trying to learn something themselves.

Liza · 04-26-2003, 07:20 AM

Hypocrisy sucks. That one must've felt very threatened (insecure), dd, huh?

IMO, it is the responsibility of parents alone to do their homework.... research on the internet, ask around, etc... and not to rely heavily on one person's opinion, be that a so called expert or professional (aka audiologists and doctors AND even deaf individuals). Everybody can be biased at a point. I would leave it up to the parents totally and hope they make very informed choices. I noticed that is what bbnt is doing... observing and learning from us!! Bless your heart, bbnt, for keeping your options open and wanting the best for your deaf child.

PUDL · 04-26-2003, 07:47 AM

Nice thread, I agree. Anyone who has contact with the deaf, should be informed about the Deaf.

Parents should be informed about all the options. Parents should be told the cost and the value of each option. They must not be told what to do.

In my opinion, parents should know two things about strict oralism 1) hearing is valued, 2) oralism will soon produce normal hearing children, but not yet.

Parents should know two things about mixing oralism and ASL 1) hearing is valued, 2) unnatural way for deaf children to learn literacy: read and write.

Parents should know three things about mixing ASL and literacy
1) Deaf can thrive in Deaf Reality: life with four senses
2) ASL is a natural language for deaf children
2) SignWriting can be used with ASL to teach natural literacy
3) English can be learned through written communication

Oralism values hearing. Most options that value hearing will try and push hearing aides or cochlear implants. The cochlear will soon be replaced with something that gives perfect hearing.

I reject any option that will not discuss other options. I accept strong opinions as understandable.

I just want to inform parents of deaf children about the value of SignWriting

possible read and write sign

Liza · 04-26-2003, 08:16 AM

deaf reality and signwriting? What the fook?

How can deaf people get by in a world like this today, if those are used? I would not understand signwriting, and quite frankly, that would NOT get any real thoughts across.. but I love ASL only in the signing form, not written. Ugh. What's wrong with mastering English in the written form? I'm a big believer in balance. ASL/English/AND other foreign languages like Spanish, Norwegian, French........ be biligual! Limiting ourselves to one language and culture would be a great fallacy.

Cain Marko · 04-26-2003, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by deafdyke
Some of you may be familiar with Hearing Exchange. (aka the Oral-only at all costs, b/c we want our children to superfically appear normal at all costs b/c we are high heeled yuppies Messageboard
I lurk there occasionally as a voice from the real world (as opposed to the post-lingally deafened world) resource for parents who may think that oral-only is enough for their sweet darling deaf and hoh kids. Today I got a PM from the person who runs the site, and she told me to stop posting about other options besides oral only.
Yet whenever someone new comes along she's there pushing oral schools, membership in AGBell, speech therapy, auditory-verbal therapy and so on! Don't you think that's a little bit hypocritical of her to bash on me about my posting about other options? (for instance I'll post encouraging a parent of a newly dx child with a mild loss to explore ALL options (ASL and cued speech and things like that) not just auditory training or things like that)

Seeing as how its a private site I guess they can decide what posts to allow or not allow.
Get your own website to promote your ideas.

deafdyke · 04-26-2003, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Seeing as how its a private site I guess they can decide what posts to allow or not allow.

Yes, I know....however they claim that it's a supportive atmosphere...why isn't it supportive for EVERYONE,not just oral options? I post about my experiances and I get yelled at! It really does make me MAD!

PUDL · 04-27-2003, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Liza
What's wrong with mastering English in the written form?

Exactly the question. I believe written will be the easiest way for Deaf to learn English. In theory, a Deaf child could be educated in ASL, then switched over to English half way through to complete their education.

How old would a Deaf child need to be before that child could understand English?
Who uses Sign Writing?

How old would a Deaf child need to be before that child could understand SignWriting?

The first and last are both "who". The arrow above the head says to tip the head. The mouth is protruding. The two darkened circles say that the joints close and do not open.

For the sign "use", both hands are a U shape. The open square says that the left hand has the palm facing you. The closed square says that the right palm is facing away from you. The closed square hand circles.

Quote:

Originally posted by Liza
I would not understand signwriting, and quite frankly, that would NOT get any real thoughts across..

As for getting thoughts across, try reading Protest at Gallaudet written in American Sign Language by Kevin Clark.

Quote:

Originally posted by Liza
I love ASL only in the signing form, not written.

Over 20 countries are currently using Sign Writing

jejones3141 · 04-28-2003, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Liza
How can deaf people get by in a world like this today, if those are used? I would not understand signwriting, and quite frankly, that would NOT get any real thoughts across.. but I love ASL only in the signing form, not written. Ugh. What's wrong with mastering English in the written form? I'm a big believer in balance. ASL/English/AND other foreign languages like Spanish, Norwegian, French........ be biligual! Limiting ourselves to one language and culture would be a great fallacy.

What's wrong with mastering English in the written form? Nothing at all--but doesn't ASL deserve a written form as much as any spoken language? Beowulf, The Canterbury Tales, Euclid's Elements...all would be lost to us had writing not been invented.

Heck, even with writing we've lost far too much, thanks to the vagaries of time and thanks to despicable people who have destroyed writings out of hatred and narrow-mindedness. ("If it agrees with the Koran, it's superfluous; if it disagrees with the Koran, it's evil," the reasoning of the accursed criminals who torched the library at Alexandria is said to have gone...)

I admit I have an ulterior motive in advocating this--I'm a hearing person learning ASL, and I'd like the same advantage I have learning the spoken languages I've studied, namely a large corpus of grammatical utterances from native speakers that I can study at my leisure and work on grammar without having to also frantically try to parse utterances into their component parts in realtime. Looking at written Spanish, what would be the heard "lo-se-sta-do-su-ni-dos" is prepackaged into "los estados unidos."

ASL needs a Sequoyah.

Cain Marko · 04-29-2003, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by deafdyke
I lurk there occasionally as a voice from the real world

Well first your deaf, then second your a dyke.

I dont think those are two groups in the majority??? So I doubt they think you are speaking from the "real world".

deafdyke · 04-29-2003, 08:23 PM

First of all, CM I am not a dyke....I am a lesbian. I don't appreciate hetro people calling me a dyke. Besides what does my sexuality have to do with my being deaf? It doesn't. Nobody at Hearing Exchange (except for maybe a couple of posters, like Anji or Boult who have drifted over from other forums) knows of my sexuality. I see NO reason to broadcast my sexuality over there, especially as that place is so clinical and there's no real sense of community over there.

Quote:

I dont think those are two groups in the majority??? So I doubt they think you are speaking from the "real world".

HUH? Minority status does not automatically exclude you from the "real world" What I meant by the real world comment is that I grew up oral and thus have experianced the real-world manifesations of being oral. I am not just a page in some book or a case study. I know how frustrating and limiting oralism is (and I know virtually everyone here is sadly all too familiar with the frustrations and limitations that oralism imposes) I can give a real picture of what it's like to be limited to only one language, and I can point out the advantages of knowing another culture and language. That's what I meant!

Teekie · 04-29-2003, 08:57 PM

~Heather~ · 04-29-2003, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Teekie

=x

deafgal01 · 05-02-2003, 01:48 AM

Each child is different, and you are right about every parents should be allowed to be given every card laid out on the table. Each child will have different preferences or needs that the parents will have to face sooner or later regarding the way they learn.

shel90 · 04-11-2007, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liza

deaf reality and signwriting? What the fook?

How can deaf people get by in a world like this today, if those are used? I would not understand signwriting, and quite frankly, that would NOT get any real thoughts across.. but I love ASL only in the signing form, not written. Ugh. What's wrong with mastering English in the written form? I'm a big believer in balance. ASL/English/AND other foreign languages like Spanish, Norwegian, French........ be biligual! Limiting ourselves to one language and culture would be a great fallacy.

I agree with u...I have seen signwriting being used on young children when they should be learning to read and write written English or the native language of their countries.

Reba · 04-11-2007, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

I agree with u...I have seen signwriting being used on young children when they should be learning to read and write written English or the native language of their countries.

Good point.

I can't imagine that there is much classical literature, technical training manuals, etc., published in signwriting. Deaf kids need access to as much printed material as possible, and that isn't available in signwriting.

beetarehoh · 04-11-2007, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafdyke

Some of you may be familiar with Hearing Exchange. (aka the Oral-only at all costs, b/c we want our children to superfically appear normal at all costs b/c we are high heeled yuppies Messageboard
I lurk there occasionally as a voice from the real world (as opposed to the post-lingally deafened world) resource for parents who may think that oral-only is enough for their sweet darling deaf and hoh kids. Today I got a PM from the person who runs the site, and she told me to stop posting about other options besides oral only.
Yet whenever someone new comes along she's there pushing oral schools, membership in AGBell, speech therapy, auditory-verbal therapy and so on! Don't you think that's a little bit hypocritical of her to bash on me about my posting about other options? (for instance I'll post encouraging a parent of a newly dx child with a mild loss to explore ALL options (ASL and cued speech and things like that) not just auditory training or things like that)

This is a perfect example of a person being totally bias and is ignorant of the real importants facts for deaf/hh students. Many parents fall for this oral method then later some children become totally defiants and are out of controls to parents. Depends on individuals strengths, some of those children that becomes adults from this oral path fall easily into addictions and isolations.

Yes, parents have no idea what they suppose to do when they find their children deaf, they go to one person for help. Everybody needs to put aside bias and layout open options.

Also We need to educate parents as much as we can, not the instructors. Children rely on parents.

And I wish you could knock her teeths out!!! LOL, not literally though.

beetarehoh

shel90 · 04-11-2007, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafdyke

Some of you may be familiar with Hearing Exchange. (aka the Oral-only at all costs, b/c we want our children to superfically appear normal at all costs b/c we are high heeled yuppies Messageboard
I lurk there occasionally as a voice from the real world (as opposed to the post-lingally deafened world) resource for parents who may think that oral-only is enough for their sweet darling deaf and hoh kids. Today I got a PM from the person who runs the site, and she told me to stop posting about other options besides oral only.
Yet whenever someone new comes along she's there pushing oral schools, membership in AGBell, speech therapy, auditory-verbal therapy and so on! Don't you think that's a little bit hypocritical of her to bash on me about my posting about other options? (for instance I'll post encouraging a parent of a newly dx child with a mild loss to explore ALL options (ASL and cued speech and things like that) not just auditory training or things like that)

That is hypocritical of her. I am gonna register in there and see what pot I can stir up.

deafskeptic · 04-12-2007, 09:11 AM

DD, I have no idea what's going on between you and Paula Rosenthal but I assume it's CI related.

I've been to her site and her site doesn't appear to be an Oral only site. According to her, she has banned you several times from HE.

I invite others to go visit HE and judge for yourselves whether or not its' an Oral only site.

shel90 · 04-12-2007, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafskeptic

DD, I have no idea what's going on between you and Paula Rosenthal but I assume it's CI related.

I've been to her site and her site doesn't appear to be an Oral only site. According to her, she has banned you several times from HE.

I invite others to go visit HE and judge for yourselves whether or not its' an Oral only site.

If she bans me for the 3 posts I put up last night. I just put up basically the same POV I post here on AD, will that be suspicous? Just waiting to see what happens but noooo I am not going in there being all anti- CI or anything..

deafskeptic · 04-12-2007, 09:34 AM

She won't ban you. In fact, she welcomed you.

shel90 · 04-12-2007, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafskeptic

She won't ban you. In fact, she welcomed you.

I cant get myself to log on it cuz I am not in the mood to learn to navigate thru other message boards yet. Ha!

Boult · 04-12-2007, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafskeptic

She won't ban you. In fact, she welcomed you.

he's right...

Quote:

Hi Shel,

Welcome to HearingExchange! It is so nice to hear about your personal experiences with ASL and oral language. I'm a firm believer that no single approach is right for everyone. Families need to do their own research, explore all the options and decide what is the best approach for their child. I highly recommend the book, "Choices in Deafness" by Sue Schwartz. Sue does a great job of discussing all the communication modes available including ASL, Cued Speech, oral, etc.

Again, welcome to our community.

~ Paula

There you go

deafskeptic · 04-12-2007, 11:01 AM

Shel90, I'm not banned even though I agreed with your post and yes the forum there is painful to navigate there.

04-26-2003, 01:50 AM	#1 (permalink)
deafdyke So NOT a Princess! Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Trebekistan Posts: 6,685	Hypocritical? Some of you may be familiar with Hearing Exchange. (aka the Oral-only at all costs, b/c we want our children to superfically appear normal at all costs b/c we are high heeled yuppies Messageboard I lurk there occasionally as a voice from the real world (as opposed to the post-lingally deafened world) resource for parents who may think that oral-only is enough for their sweet darling deaf and hoh kids. Today I got a PM from the person who runs the site, and she told me to stop posting about other options besides oral only. Yet whenever someone new comes along she's there pushing oral schools, membership in AGBell, speech therapy, auditory-verbal therapy and so on! Don't you think that's a little bit hypocritical of her to bash on me about my posting about other options? (for instance I'll post encouraging a parent of a newly dx child with a mild loss to explore ALL options (ASL and cued speech and things like that) not just auditory training or things like that)

04-29-2003, 08:57 PM	#14 (permalink)
Teekie ~Mommie Teekie~ Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,929	__________________ Proud Momma to: ~Austin- 5/11/00 ~Kieran- 2/6/03 ~Sean- 9/23/04

04-12-2007, 09:11 AM	#21 (permalink)
deafskeptic AAACCK! I got BORGED! Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 2,452	DD, I have no idea what's going on between you and Paula Rosenthal but I assume it's CI related. I've been to her site and her site doesn't appear to be an Oral only site. According to her, she has banned you several times from HE. I invite others to go visit HE and judge for yourselves whether or not its' an Oral only site. __________________ Left ear implanted with Med-El on April 24 2007. Activated on May 9th.

04-12-2007, 09:34 AM	#23 (permalink)
deafskeptic AAACCK! I got BORGED! Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 2,452	She won't ban you. In fact, she welcomed you. __________________ Left ear implanted with Med-El on April 24 2007. Activated on May 9th.

04-12-2007, 11:01 AM	#26 (permalink)
deafskeptic AAACCK! I got BORGED! Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 2,452	Shel90, I'm not banned even though I agreed with your post and yes the forum there is painful to navigate there. __________________ Left ear implanted with Med-El on April 24 2007. Activated on May 9th.

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04-26-2003, 02:04 AM	#2 (permalink)
bbnt King of all I see Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Arizona Posts: 3,513	When it comes to deaf children ALL opitions should be put on the table for parents to look at

04-26-2003, 07:13 AM	#4 (permalink)
kuifje75 Guest Posts: n/a	Frankly, that really does suck. I really wish that parents would explore all options so that they can make educated decisions based on what they think would be best for their kids. This owner shouldn't chide you for trying to suggest that to the parents. Shame on him. It amazes me because I teach ASL to HEARING KIDS aged 7 to 16 at a homeschooling academy, and the parents said that the kids totally love the classes. The parents said that they think the ASL classes really help them to express themselves in other way. But of course, there will always be audists out there who thinks they know what is best, and try to impose that on others without trying to learn something themselves.

04-26-2003, 07:20 AM	#5 (permalink)
Liza Cranial protocologist Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: St Augustine, FL Posts: 4,189 Blog Entries: 2	Hypocrisy sucks. That one must've felt very threatened (insecure), dd, huh? IMO, it is the responsibility of parents alone to do their homework.... research on the internet, ask around, etc... and not to rely heavily on one person's opinion, be that a so called expert or professional (aka audiologists and doctors AND even deaf individuals). Everybody can be biased at a point. I would leave it up to the parents totally and hope they make very informed choices. I noticed that is what bbnt is doing... observing and learning from us!! Bless your heart, bbnt, for keeping your options open and wanting the best for your deaf child.

04-26-2003, 07:47 AM	#6 (permalink)
PUDL Oculog Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 28	Nice thread, I agree. Anyone who has contact with the deaf, should be informed about the Deaf. Parents should be informed about all the options. Parents should be told the cost and the value of each option. They must not be told what to do. In my opinion, parents should know two things about strict oralism 1) hearing is valued, 2) oralism will soon produce normal hearing children, but not yet. Parents should know two things about mixing oralism and ASL 1) hearing is valued, 2) unnatural way for deaf children to learn literacy: read and write. Parents should know three things about mixing ASL and literacy 1) Deaf can thrive in Deaf Reality: life with four senses 2) ASL is a natural language for deaf children 2) SignWriting can be used with ASL to teach natural literacy 3) English can be learned through written communication Oralism values hearing. Most options that value hearing will try and push hearing aides or cochlear implants. The cochlear will soon be replaced with something that gives perfect hearing. I reject any option that will not discuss other options. I accept strong opinions as understandable. I just want to inform parents of deaf children about the value of SignWriting possible read and write sign

04-26-2003, 08:16 AM	#7 (permalink)
Liza Cranial protocologist Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: St Augustine, FL Posts: 4,189 Blog Entries: 2	deaf reality and signwriting? What the fook? How can deaf people get by in a world like this today, if those are used? I would not understand signwriting, and quite frankly, that would NOT get any real thoughts across.. but I love ASL only in the signing form, not written. Ugh. What's wrong with mastering English in the written form? I'm a big believer in balance. ASL/English/AND other foreign languages like Spanish, Norwegian, French........ be biligual! Limiting ourselves to one language and culture would be a great fallacy.

05-02-2003, 01:48 AM	#16 (permalink)
deafgal01 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Lost in the woods of Indiana Posts: 203	Each child is different, and you are right about every parents should be allowed to be given every card laid out on the table. Each child will have different preferences or needs that the parents will have to face sooner or later regarding the way they learn.