Daft

OK, which do you prefer - old ASL signs or new signs?

Deafness

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rjr2006

my hearing friend uses old ASL, but I prefer more modern ASL although I use SEE.

deaf24fan

What's the difference between old ASL and new ASL?

Reba

I'm not sure but I have noticed that some "old" ASL signs have been changed to be more politically correct. For example, the signs for Japan and China are no longer made from the eye area.

Another change I have noticed is more initialized signs are being accepted by ASL users. That doesn't really qualify as "new" signs but maybe a new attitude.

Also, ASL a hundred years ago was different from ASL today but I don't think Daft is referring back that far.

Some signs get updated with technology changes. For example, the sign for "charging" something (as in using a charge card to make a purchase). It used to be made like the motion of sliding the card machine over a card. But now it is signed like "sweeping" the card thru an electronic reader.

ASL is a language, so like any other language, it changes over time.

Maybe Daft can give us some examples of "old" and "new" ASL for the topic.

Gemtun

ASL signs has evolved over the years. I work with many deaf senior citizens who still use "old fashioned signs" ...i.e, telephone, computer, etc. Some still fingerspell a lot more than using ASL concepts.

Not only that, but it has become more politically correct too thus change for some of ASL signs.

But I m not exactly sure what you mean by new and old ASL.

diehardbiker

There is almost NO changes in ASL itself in the past hundred years. The ONLY changes in sign language itself is ACCENT. ASL itself have nothing to do with signs itself. It (ASL) has ALOT to do with with rules, syntax and structure of HOW signs is carried out. These rules, syntax and structure have NOT even change much in ASL. The only difference is how you sign specific word, that is ALL, same with voice accent. Same concept with english, there is little change with english itself, but plenty of spoken accents has been changed alot.
I just wish deafies (Including hearing too) start to focus on WHAT IS "Language" itself rather than "HOW". Once a person understand the concept of language itself then that person will be ABLE to see the difference between languages MUCH easier!

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kuifje75

I disagree with you, diehardbiker. Language is always evolving no matter what, and ASL does change throughout the years. 100 years ago, we did not have terms like microwave, computer, etc... Technology and culture always evolve and that also alters the language. ASL also has some foreign signs borrowed, such as International signs, to fill in the gaps. This is same as for written languages, especially English. 100 years ago, we would have never heard of words such as blitzkrieg, Anschluss, Geist, Dummkopf, etc... They are very much part of the English vocabulary now. Also in the German language, they have Denglisch, which are English words borrowed into the German language.

Vance

Indeed.

Whoever lives in California or enroll in Gallaudet will notice the 'new' ASL that people created every year or so. It is like 'fad' thing... some 'new' ASL becomes permanent sign as part of our ASL, some don't. Example: One stand night. We used to sign "One-Stand-Night" but some of us are no longer to sign like that... I am not good at giving a description of sign but it is opposition of "paper" sign with half-hooked inward hands and the fingertips touched each other then snip the hands into the 'fist' shaped. I hope I make sense or someone know what I am talking about...

As a fourth generation of deaf family and grew up in both world of hearies and deafies, there is new and old ASL... some of ASL we did evolved according to the technology and culture as kuifje75 stated above. Some of ASL we made up to make it more 'interesting' and other few reasons.

CODAchild

I am hearing, who grew up with deaf parent's. Both my parent's signed the old english way. For years that is the way I signed. When I met my husband, who is deaf, he blew me away with his ASL, and I had no idea what he was saying. So I went back to sign language classes to get caught up with ASL. Boy I am glad I did, I was so far behind with my signing, that I was so lost watching a conversation.
I had a job at the Rhode Island School for the Deaf, and it was like learning all over again, because the kids were really fast with their ASL, but, with all the observing I did, I was able to catch up and understand at the same time.
So I guess old and new does evolve as time passes. There have been changes in signs, as Reba stated with China and Japan, where the signing has been taken away from the eyes.
From my upbringing, there is Old English, and New ASL. Maybe you all agree, or disagree.
The question is food for thought!!

diehardbiker

You could disagree all you want, but the truth is of course the way we use changes, but the rules REMAINS pretty much the same... Have we change the way words are going in order? NOPE! We all know in english we start with Noun, then verb then whatever is next. Have these sequences CHANGED???? of course not! Have we moved the period marks anywhere in the sentence? Its been like that for hundred, not for thousands of years. Same with exclamining and question marks. They have definite place where it is placed, and that is part of the rule. Same with ASL, they havent change BUT the accent, the words itself has been evolved.

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jejones3141

With all due respect, things have changed in English rules. (We both agree that vocabulary has changed a lot; people have made up or borrowed lots of words for English over the years, unlike, say, Icelandic, which really hasn't changed much since the Eddas were written.)

One example that I know about because I go to Renaissance fairs, and hence have an interest in how people talked then, is the so-called "periphrastic 'do'." WTF is that, you ask? (I know I did...) That's the use of "do" as an auxiliary verb for things other than emphasis; at least I think it is.

Nowadays English speakers use periphrastic "do" all over the place: for example, in questions ("Do you want to go out for pizza?") or negations ("Don't do that!", "I don't like licorice" "Don't you have a pencil?"). Back in the Renaissance, English speakers didn't talk that way. Instead, it was "Want you to go out for pizza?", "Do that not!", "I like not licorice," "Have you not a pencil?" A lute song of the time starts "I care not for these ladies..."; nowadays it would be "I don't care for these ladies." We still recognize the older forms, but it sounds antiquated and is only used for effect, e.g. JFK's "Ask not what your country can do for you..." rather than "Don't ask what your country can do for you..."

There are people who have written serious scholarly papers on all the uses of periphrastic "do" and how their frequency has changed over time! Google "periphrastic do" and you'll find a bunch of them.

A more recent change is the use of plural forms for indefinite pronouns, which your English teacher will tell you ought to be singular. The PC movement has pushed it in part; people will say "Everyone should bring their shovel" rather than "Everyone should bring his shovel" or the clumsy "Everybody should bring his or her shovel."

signer16

Hearing student here, with not much long term ASL exposure BUT....
I am 18 years old, and I have had ASL teachers of a variety of ages and genders, as well as a few deaf friends. I have noticed that in ASL, as in all languages, words tend to get shortened, and easier to say. This is not necessarily good or bad, simply how language evolves.
In English, speaking we've gone from: I would have, to I would've to Id've.
In ASL, we've gone from: woman baby, to mother baby, to mother raised baby, to mother (hand shoot out) to mother, (wiggle) to mother (tap) to mother (still).
I have a hearing ASL teacher, age 73, who has not really changed his ASL signs in the past 30 years. He understands a lot of the "new" signs, but he still uses old ones. His English is a bit more current as it is his primary language, but even it isn't "current."

AngelWolf

Hello!

I have not been posted here very much or too long! So I am here to ask few questions or less!

Ok, see a deaf lady just moved here from east and she herself is a full "old fashion" ASL and she wants to have a meeting abt ASL and want have it a full true ASL and also were told that she do not like the way we sign our names in two hands instead of one! Know I mean? Kind of hard to explain tho but for example a person who loves music so sign in her name as "H" on the arm u know, movement back and forth with "H" and that lady said do not like it at all, must have only one hand sign for names I think!! Gosh, I was not sure why so I am asking u if u know anything abt that kind of the way abt ASL itself? Cuz I am mix ASL and very little of SEE which I just slowly change to asl lol cuz I grew up oral myself till 14 yrs old change to sign lang which I did not know nothing abt!

So for reason why I am here to ask was that I need to know abt ASL from old to new cuz this lady want to stay old asl but this lady is old lady but look young gal to me lol but very nice tho closed to my age which I am over 50s anyway... so I just simple want to know and I am not trying to get any support abt it ....just want to understand that all and I can understand that any of u are comfortable with ur different kind of sign lang!! Doesn't that right that we shouldn't tell u what to do and to stay with old ASL for life, know I mean? That is what I like to know cuz of the way of law that has passed for ASL as lanagauge....whatever that is...lol sorry.. I am not very good at english!! So I hope u all can understand this so pls let me know!!

If it is ASL as lanagauge then we dont have to be stay in old ASL? Just what we do all the time everyday life?

Thanks!!

AngelWolf

Lantana

I am one of the die hards. I still use the *not* politically correct geographic signs. People forget that ASL is a VISUAL language and an oriental person's eye's are different, which is very visual to us! The same as being FAT (fat cheeks) or SKINNY (using the two pinkie fingers). Our ASL was fine until hearing people jumped into it and tried to "save" us.

Awhile back I needed an interpreter for a minor eye operation and my interpreter was aware of both types of signs and asked me which I preferred. That made me happy!

Hearing people should stay out of our language and accept it the way it is. I would not dream of moving to Russia and trying to change the system of THEIR language!

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JessHercules

Diehardbiker, I understand what you mean in regards to the grammar, rules, syntax and so forth. You're right, the ASL grammar has not changed very much, and really it shouldn't be changed anyway. ASL is a unique language.

In regards to old ASL and new ASL, I have seen a wonderful video of George Veditz signing during the late 1800's. Veditz was the very first National Association of the Deaf (NAD) president. There were some signs I didn't understand, and some I did. One thing I noticed was the lack of initialization, as opposed to today's ASL signs.

I am an ASL instructor myself. I grew up in a Deaf family, so I've always used ASL. Yes, there have been additional vocabulary, but really the only change I've noticed is the initialization. For example, use the sign "philosophy", P handshape in front of forehead, moving up and down. The old sign for "philosophy" was not the P handshape, but the X handshape, much similar to the sign for "wise".

A few years ago, I met two Deaf women from the DC area who were researching the old ASL. They presented their research, but was not finished. It was extremely interesting, but it made me sad because nowadays, ASL is influenced by English all the time, when it should be the other way around!

Just my two cents.

kuifje75

It's the hearing people's fault that the country signs have changed? I would have thought that the WFD had meetings and everyone started to learn the actual signs that is used in their own countries. So, the new trend is using the actual signs that the deaf people in other countries use. The new sign for "Japan" is a very visual one, because it shows the outline of the island. The new sign for "Vietnam" used by Southern Vietnameses shows the shape of the country, using "V" handshape going from north to south in a flat S motion. These are the signs used by deaf people in other countries, not hearies.

kuifje75

I wouldnt consider them to be accent 'cos accent or dialect is a very different thing. An accent or a dialect may be a form of a language that is used exclusively only in a certain region in a country. For example, Germany has many accents and dialects, especially the Bavarian dialect, the Berliner dialect, etc... Accent is a way of speaking which does not conform to the norms of a local speech pattern. So, yes, there are "accents" in ASL which is evident in having several different signs for certain words in certain locations. The words "birthday" and "present" are famous examples of "accent."

The use of words, style of signing and so on I would consider to be phonology, morphology, location and so on. Not accents.