ASL, PSE, or SEE, which is superior - Page 2

jillio · 04-20-2008, 01:25 PM

I agree with you, shel & deafbajagal, on the TC. In TC programs from that time period. kids were exposed to confusing linguistic models. They got neither proper English models, nor proper ASL models. As a consequence, both their sign and their English was impoverished.

The researchers do disagree on timing, but it has been shown that children are quite capable of learning 2 languages at once. as in bilingual households where they are exposed to 2 or more languages at one time. One language, however, will usually become dominant over time.

The best way to explain the TC philosophy of the 70's and 80's was to use anything and everything. A little of this, and a little of that. Very electic. That electisim was the problem...no strong foundation in anything. It is one thing to use an integrative approach....quite another to use an electic approach.

InnocentOdion · 04-20-2008, 01:44 PM

Personally I think ASL (or in my case BSL) is the best choice.

I'm quite keen on SEE and I want to learn some of the grammar signs (the British variation preferably, but ASL SEE will do until then. Someone could always help and link to a website with video with like, "the", "a", "to", "for", etc) just so I can explain myself a little better at times. This is more to do with the fact I'm still learning sign language.

On the downside, SEE is really slow compared to ASL, and has been described as "two-dimensional".

Here's an example of the differences:

ASL: YouTube - Introduction in ASL
SEE: YouTube - Another introduction of myself BUT in Signed English

ps: that isn't me

I tend to use PSE the most, because I sign to my wife mainly. I'd prefer it if my signing grammar was better so I could use something else, but in time I shall.

jillio · 04-20-2008, 01:55 PM

The biggest problem with the MCEs is that they use a mode intended to convey information in a time oriented and spatial way and change it to a linear arrangement intended for auditory information. The ear and the eye process information differently. That is one of the reasons that they seem so cumbersome in use. The brain is actually having to translate in processing, and it is tiring.

rockdrummer · 04-21-2008, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tousi

I thought the basic question was which system is the superior?

Probably depends on ones definition of superior

jillio · 04-21-2008, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

Probably depends on ones definition of superior

Nope, it's in the title of the thread.

***VamPyroX*** · 04-21-2008, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkullChick

I sign PSE because I like this one the best I know how to sign SEE, and ASL but I don't really like the idea of ASL being taught as first language to children because in the most case it screw their english grammar and concepts up badly. So start them with PSE or SEE and teach them ASL later in life but keep them on learning, writing and reading so they stay on track and still write right I've seen it happen way too often that they could write pretty good and suddenly they transferred to deaf school and their writing and reading skill suddenly changed and sucked because its written in ASL grammar its frustrating to see it happens. So I think PSE is the way to go till someone's mature and intelligent enough to understand its way you sign not the way you write it to learn ASL.
Just my opinion.

I agree with you.

The United States follows the English system when it comes to communication.

Since ASL is considered a second language, then deaf students should learn English the way it should be taught... with proper grammar and structure.

If Hispanics go through it, then deaf people should too.

Race and handicap is no different... they both deserve equal treatment.

If a Hispanic kid wants to get through English school, he has to learn English and go through English class like every other kid.

If a deaf kid wants to get through English school, he should also have to learn English and go through English class like every other kid.

Hispanics still speak Spanish when they're away from school or talking with each other among other Hispanics. But, they use the English system when they are in school or doing homework.

Deaf people do the same thing. So, saying that their primary language is ASL shouldn't be an excuse NOT to use SEE or follow the English system. That's basically what school is about... learning. Whether it's hard or not, they should still learn.

So, in school... SEE or any sign language that resembles proper English grammar and structure should be used. ASL should be something best left to themselves.

Chase · 04-21-2008, 01:27 PM

Superior, stupid, and ugly are certainly in the eye of the beholder.

I use ASL when signing with my older sister, deaf since birth, and mostly ASL grammar when writing back and forth, because that's her language.

I use SEE when signing with my girlfriend and English when writing back and forth, because that's her language. Stupid would be to force her into another way. Ugly just doesn't make sense when she's signing the best she knows how to accommodate me.

If I knew someone who preferred PSE, I'd most likely slip into that mode if it were what he or she knew best or preferred.

jillio · 04-21-2008, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chase

Superior, stupid, and ugly are certainly in the eye of the beholder.

I use ASL when signing with my older sister, deaf since birth, and mostly ASL grammar when writing back and forth, because that's her language.

I use SEE when signing with my girlfriend and English when writing back and forth, because that's her language. Stupid would be to force her into another way. Ugly just doesn't make sense when she's signing the best she knows how to accommodate me.

If I knew someone who preferred PSE, I'd most likely slip into that mode if it were what he or she knew best or preferred.

There you go! Flexibility is the key. Communication is the issue.

traciedowell · 04-22-2008, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

IMO, none of the choices is "superior". I believe each plays an important role in different settings.

I agree.

rockdrummer · 04-22-2008, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Nope, it's in the title of the thread.

I understand the title of the thread is which is superior. What I am saying is that is going to depend on ones definition of superior. Add to that subjectivity and it's going to be a mixed bag of results.

jillio · 04-22-2008, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

I understand the title of the thread is which is superior. What I am saying is that is going to depend on ones definition of superior. Add to that subjectivity and it's going to be a mixed bag of results.

What definition is there for "superior" except "better than"? Of course, I have offered a concise definition, but isn't that what it boils down to? Opinion might vary, or context might change the degree, but the definition of superior doesn't change.

CrzyMeg · 05-09-2008, 07:55 PM

I sign PSE too. I was taught first SEE Then spoken English language then Asl

jasin · 07-13-2008, 05:02 PM

asl

~♥~Pinky~♥~ · 07-13-2008, 05:09 PM

I am full ASL. I know PSE and SEE.

jasin · 07-13-2008, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VamPyroX

I agree with you.

The United States follows the English system when it comes to communication.

Since ASL is considered a second language, then deaf students should learn English the way it should be taught... with proper grammar and structure.

If Hispanics go through it, then deaf people should too.

Race and handicap is no different... they both deserve equal treatment.

If a Hispanic kid wants to get through English school, he has to learn English and go through English class like every other kid.

If a deaf kid wants to get through English school, he should also have to learn English and go through English class like every other kid.

Hispanics still speak Spanish when they're away from school or talking with each other among other Hispanics. But, they use the English system when they are in school or doing homework.

Deaf people do the same thing. So, saying that their primary language is ASL shouldn't be an excuse NOT to use SEE or follow the English system. That's basically what school is about... learning. Whether it's hard or not, they should still learn.

So, in school... SEE or any sign language that resembles proper English grammar and structure should be used. ASL should be something best left to themselves.

SEE is not written or spoken so it could never resemble written or spoken English. Also, the grammar is spatial unlike grammar in English. Furthermore, SEE would not exist without Asl as it borrows vocab (signs) from Asl.

Asl existed long before SEE ever did. Asl, in part, has been around since the early 1800's. Long before SEE was ever devised in 1972. Its actually been questioned by many as if SEE is even really a language. In its early days, and even up to now too some extent, SEE was considered an artificial system not a language.

~♥~Pinky~♥~ · 07-13-2008, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasin

SEE is not written or spoken so it could never resemble written or spoken English. Also, the grammar is spatial unlike grammar in English. Furthermore, SEE would not exist without Asl as it borrows vocab (signs) from Asl.

Asl existed long before SEE ever did. Asl, in part, has been around since the early 1800's. Long before SEE was ever devised in 1972. Its actually been questioned by many as if SEE is even really a language. In its early days, and even up to now too some extent, SEE was considered an artificial system not a language.

SEE have verb, nouns, adjverb, adjective, prefix, and suffix. But ASL don't have these. For example I, AM, HER, HIS, THEY, THEIR and other. ASL and SEE aren't the same.

The hearing people don't know ASL very well. They didn't understand deaf people's grammar. It sound they don't have a roots word skill. Many deaf people are embarrassing by hearing people doesn't understand deaf's grammars.

I know SEE very well but I am usually ASL mostly. If my friends never attend to Deaf school. She or he do speak SEE. I have to respect them and use SEE. I have to be patient. If I see other people use ASL. I will use ASL. That's different.

jasin · 07-13-2008, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinky678

SEE have verb, nouns, adjverb, adjective, prefix, and suffix. But ASL don't have these. For example I, AM, HER, HIS, THEY, THEIR and other. ASL and SEE aren't the same.

The hearing people don't know ASL very well. They didn't understand deaf people's grammar. It sound they don't have a roots word skill. Many deaf people are embarrassing by hearing people doesn't understand deaf's grammars.

I know SEE very well but I am usually ASL mostly. If my friends never attend to Deaf school. She or he do speak SEE. I have to respect them and use SEE. I have to be patient. If I see other people use ASL. I will use ASL. That's different.

All of that exist in Asl and you are showing your ignorance suggesting it does not. I can even sign sentences in Asl in the sturcture of sov, ov, etc.. and still sign correct. As far as SEE being easier to understand, thats false. No one understands Sign, regardless of what kind of sign it is, unless they have studied it. The simple fact that it has a structure more like English makes no difference. Speak SEE? As a deaf person you should know better!! We sign our sign languages we do not speak them. "Speaking sign" is hearing person logic!!

shel90 · 07-13-2008, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinky678

SEE have verb, nouns, adjverb, adjective, prefix, and suffix. But ASL don't have these. For example I, AM, HER, HIS, THEY, THEIR and other. ASL and SEE aren't the same.

The hearing people don't know ASL very well. They didn't understand deaf people's grammar. It sound they don't have a roots word skill. Many deaf people are embarrassing by hearing people doesn't understand deaf's grammars.

I know SEE very well but I am usually ASL mostly. If my friends never attend to Deaf school. She or he do speak SEE. I have to respect them and use SEE. I have to be patient. If I see other people use ASL. I will use ASL. That's different.

Totally inaccurate.

loml · 07-13-2008, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinky678

SEE have verb, nouns, adjverb, adjective, prefix, and suffix. But ASL don't have these. For example I, AM, HER, HIS, THEY, THEIR and other. ASL and SEE aren't the same.

The hearing people don't know ASL very well. They didn't understand deaf people's grammar. It sound they don't have a roots word skill. Many deaf people are embarrassing by hearing people doesn't understand deaf's grammars.

I know SEE very well but I am usually ASL mostly. If my friends never attend to Deaf school. She or he do speak SEE. I have to respect them and use SEE. I have to be patient. If I see other people use ASL. I will use ASL. That's different.

Pinky678 - I understand that you are saying there are actual "signs" deemed for these English words in SEE: I, AM, HER, HIS, THEY, THEIR and other. Some ASL signs have been incoprorated into the SEE signing system, along with additions for prefixs and suffixes. Works into a "whole lotta signing!".

How fortunate for your friends that your have the skills to accomodate their different signing system.

loml · 07-13-2008, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasin

All of that exist in Asl and you are showing your ignorance suggesting it does not. I can even sign sentences in Asl in the sturcture of sov, ov, etc.. and still sign correct. As far as SEE being easier to understand, thats false. No one understands Sign, regardless of what kind of sign it is, unless they have studied it. The simple fact that it has a structure more like English makes no difference. Speak SEE? As a deaf person you should know better!! We sign our sign languages we do not speak them. "Speaking sign" is hearing person logic!!

jasin - ASL is not English. You yourself stated:

Quote:

No one understands Sign, regardless of what kind of sign it is, unless they have studied it.

I will add, no one attempts to make ASL equate to English unless one knows English.

I agree with Pink678; there are some hearing people that see SEE as "easier" to understand, simply because it tries to follow the same gramatical structure of spoken English.

Cheri · 07-13-2008, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasin

All of that exist in Asl and you are showing your ignorance suggesting it does not. I can even sign sentences in Asl in the sturcture of sov, ov, etc.. and still sign correct. As far as SEE being easier to understand, thats false. No one understands Sign, regardless of what kind of sign it is, unless they have studied it. The simple fact that it has a structure more like English makes no difference. Speak SEE? As a deaf person you should know better!! We sign our sign languages we do not speak them. "Speaking sign" is hearing person logic!!

Whoa, hold the phone, I speak and sign at the same time and I'm deaf, yep d-e-a-f. You said deaf people don't speak? You're crazy, there are many deaf people who do speak and sign.

Cheri · 07-13-2008, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasin

SEE is not written or spoken so it could never resemble written or spoken English. Also, the grammar is spatial unlike grammar in English.

SEE is a sign language that is used in exact English word order the same as one does when writing English. ASL is exactly as opposed to Sign Exact English because has its own unique syntax and grammar.

In SEE, You sign and speak "I am going to the store"
In ASL, You sign and speak "Me go store"

CrzyMeg · 07-13-2008, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheri

SEE is a sign language that is used in exact English word order the same as one does when writing English. ASL is exactly as opposed to Sign Exact English because has its own unique syntax and grammar.

In SEE, You sign and speak "I am going to the store"
In ASL, You sign and speak "Me go store"

I already learned that,

. My ASL teacher in high school keep telling stop using SEE. I couldn't help it. But I learn to adjust.

jillio · 07-14-2008, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasin

SEE is not written or spoken so it could never resemble written or spoken English. Also, the grammar is spatial unlike grammar in English. Furthermore, SEE would not exist without Asl as it borrows vocab (signs) from Asl.

Asl existed long before SEE ever did. Asl, in part, has been around since the early 1800's. Long before SEE was ever devised in 1972. Its actually been questioned by many as if SEE is even really a language. In its early days, and even up to now too some extent, SEE was considered an artificial system not a language.

SEE is written and spoken. SEE is manualized English, and English is both spoken and written. That is exactly why it was invented to be used in educational environments that employ sim-com.

jillio · 07-14-2008, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheri

SEE is a sign language that is used in exact English word order the same as one does when writing English. ASL is exactly as opposed to Sign Exact English because has its own unique syntax and grammar.

In SEE, You sign and speak "I am going to the store"
In ASL, You sign and speak "Me go store"

Exactly. SEE is jsut what the acronym stands for "Signing Exact English." SEE is English.

CrzyMeg · 07-14-2008, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by

04-20-2008, 01:25 PM	#31 (permalink)
jillio Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 16,857	I agree with you, shel & deafbajagal, on the TC. In TC programs from that time period. kids were exposed to confusing linguistic models. They got neither proper English models, nor proper ASL models. As a consequence, both their sign and their English was impoverished. The researchers do disagree on timing, but it has been shown that children are quite capable of learning 2 languages at once. as in bilingual households where they are exposed to 2 or more languages at one time. One language, however, will usually become dominant over time. The best way to explain the TC philosophy of the 70's and 80's was to use anything and everything. A little of this, and a little of that. Very electic. That electisim was the problem...no strong foundation in anything. It is one thing to use an integrative approach....quite another to use an electic approach.

Today
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04-20-2008, 01:44 PM	#32 (permalink)
InnocentOdion HOH and learnin' sign! Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: England, United Kingdom Posts: 168	Personally I think ASL (or in my case BSL) is the best choice. I'm quite keen on SEE and I want to learn some of the grammar signs (the British variation preferably, but ASL SEE will do until then. Someone could always help and link to a website with video with like, "the", "a", "to", "for", etc) just so I can explain myself a little better at times. This is more to do with the fact I'm still learning sign language. On the downside, SEE is really slow compared to ASL, and has been described as "two-dimensional". Here's an example of the differences: ASL: YouTube - Introduction in ASL SEE: YouTube - Another introduction of myself BUT in Signed English ps: that isn't me I tend to use PSE the most, because I sign to my wife mainly. I'd prefer it if my signing grammar was better so I could use something else, but in time I shall.

04-20-2008, 01:55 PM	#33 (permalink)
jillio Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 16,857	The biggest problem with the MCEs is that they use a mode intended to convey information in a time oriented and spatial way and change it to a linear arrangement intended for auditory information. The ear and the eye process information differently. That is one of the reasons that they seem so cumbersome in use. The brain is actually having to translate in processing, and it is tiring.

04-21-2008, 01:27 PM	#37 (permalink)
Chase Premium Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,316	Superior, stupid, and ugly are certainly in the eye of the beholder. I use ASL when signing with my older sister, deaf since birth, and mostly ASL grammar when writing back and forth, because that's her language. I use SEE when signing with my girlfriend and English when writing back and forth, because that's her language. Stupid would be to force her into another way. Ugly just doesn't make sense when she's signing the best she knows how to accommodate me. If I knew someone who preferred PSE, I'd most likely slip into that mode if it were what he or she knew best or preferred.

05-09-2008, 07:55 PM	#42 (permalink)
CrzyMeg Proud to be Capricorn. Join Date: May 2008 Location: Florida Posts: 4,575	I sign PSE too. I was taught first SEE Then spoken English language then Asl

07-13-2008, 05:02 PM	#43 (permalink)
jasin Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Puyallup, Washington Posts: 779	asl

07-13-2008, 05:09 PM	#44 (permalink)
~♥~Pinky~♥~ Registered User Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 2,837	I am full ASL. I know PSE and SEE.