ASL, PSE, or SEE, which is superior - Page 2

jillio · 04-20-2008, 01:25 PM

I agree with you, shel & deafbajagal, on the TC. In TC programs from that time period. kids were exposed to confusing linguistic models. They got neither proper English models, nor proper ASL models. As a consequence, both their sign and their English was impoverished.

The researchers do disagree on timing, but it has been shown that children are quite capable of learning 2 languages at once. as in bilingual households where they are exposed to 2 or more languages at one time. One language, however, will usually become dominant over time.

The best way to explain the TC philosophy of the 70's and 80's was to use anything and everything. A little of this, and a little of that. Very electic. That electisim was the problem...no strong foundation in anything. It is one thing to use an integrative approach....quite another to use an electic approach.

InnocentOdion · 04-20-2008, 01:44 PM

Personally I think ASL (or in my case BSL) is the best choice.

I'm quite keen on SEE and I want to learn some of the grammar signs (the British variation preferably, but ASL SEE will do until then. Someone could always help and link to a website with video with like, "the", "a", "to", "for", etc) just so I can explain myself a little better at times. This is more to do with the fact I'm still learning sign language.

On the downside, SEE is really slow compared to ASL, and has been described as "two-dimensional".

Here's an example of the differences:

ASL: YouTube - Introduction in ASL
SEE: YouTube - Another introduction of myself BUT in Signed English

ps: that isn't me

I tend to use PSE the most, because I sign to my wife mainly. I'd prefer it if my signing grammar was better so I could use something else, but in time I shall.

jillio · 04-20-2008, 01:55 PM

The biggest problem with the MCEs is that they use a mode intended to convey information in a time oriented and spatial way and change it to a linear arrangement intended for auditory information. The ear and the eye process information differently. That is one of the reasons that they seem so cumbersome in use. The brain is actually having to translate in processing, and it is tiring.

rockdrummer · 04-21-2008, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tousi

I thought the basic question was which system is the superior?

Probably depends on ones definition of superior

jillio · 04-21-2008, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

Probably depends on ones definition of superior

Nope, it's in the title of the thread.

***VamPyroX*** · 04-21-2008, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkullChick

I sign PSE because I like this one the best I know how to sign SEE, and ASL but I don't really like the idea of ASL being taught as first language to children because in the most case it screw their english grammar and concepts up badly. So start them with PSE or SEE and teach them ASL later in life but keep them on learning, writing and reading so they stay on track and still write right I've seen it happen way too often that they could write pretty good and suddenly they transferred to deaf school and their writing and reading skill suddenly changed and sucked because its written in ASL grammar its frustrating to see it happens. So I think PSE is the way to go till someone's mature and intelligent enough to understand its way you sign not the way you write it to learn ASL.
Just my opinion.

I agree with you.

The United States follows the English system when it comes to communication.

Since ASL is considered a second language, then deaf students should learn English the way it should be taught... with proper grammar and structure.

If Hispanics go through it, then deaf people should too.

Race and handicap is no different... they both deserve equal treatment.

If a Hispanic kid wants to get through English school, he has to learn English and go through English class like every other kid.

If a deaf kid wants to get through English school, he should also have to learn English and go through English class like every other kid.

Hispanics still speak Spanish when they're away from school or talking with each other among other Hispanics. But, they use the English system when they are in school or doing homework.

Deaf people do the same thing. So, saying that their primary language is ASL shouldn't be an excuse NOT to use SEE or follow the English system. That's basically what school is about... learning. Whether it's hard or not, they should still learn.

So, in school... SEE or any sign language that resembles proper English grammar and structure should be used. ASL should be something best left to themselves.

Chase · 04-21-2008, 01:27 PM

Superior, stupid, and ugly are certainly in the eye of the beholder.

I use ASL when signing with my older sister, deaf since birth, and mostly ASL grammar when writing back and forth, because that's her language.

I use SEE when signing with my girlfriend and English when writing back and forth, because that's her language. Stupid would be to force her into another way. Ugly just doesn't make sense when she's signing the best she knows how to accommodate me.

If I knew someone who preferred PSE, I'd most likely slip into that mode if it were what he or she knew best or preferred.

jillio · 04-21-2008, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chase

Superior, stupid, and ugly are certainly in the eye of the beholder.

I use ASL when signing with my older sister, deaf since birth, and mostly ASL grammar when writing back and forth, because that's her language.

I use SEE when signing with my girlfriend and English when writing back and forth, because that's her language. Stupid would be to force her into another way. Ugly just doesn't make sense when she's signing the best she knows how to accommodate me.

If I knew someone who preferred PSE, I'd most likely slip into that mode if it were what he or she knew best or preferred.

There you go! Flexibility is the key. Communication is the issue.

traciedowell · 04-22-2008, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

IMO, none of the choices is "superior". I believe each plays an important role in different settings.

I agree.

rockdrummer · 04-22-2008, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Nope, it's in the title of the thread.

I understand the title of the thread is which is superior. What I am saying is that is going to depend on ones definition of superior. Add to that subjectivity and it's going to be a mixed bag of results.

jillio · 04-22-2008, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

I understand the title of the thread is which is superior. What I am saying is that is going to depend on ones definition of superior. Add to that subjectivity and it's going to be a mixed bag of results.

What definition is there for "superior" except "better than"? Of course, I have offered a concise definition, but isn't that what it boils down to? Opinion might vary, or context might change the degree, but the definition of superior doesn't change.

Meggie2 · 05-09-2008, 07:55 PM

I sign PSE too. I was taught first SEE Then spoken English language then Asl

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04-20-2008, 01:25 PM	#31 (permalink)
jillio Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 13,814	I agree with you, shel & deafbajagal, on the TC. In TC programs from that time period. kids were exposed to confusing linguistic models. They got neither proper English models, nor proper ASL models. As a consequence, both their sign and their English was impoverished. The researchers do disagree on timing, but it has been shown that children are quite capable of learning 2 languages at once. as in bilingual households where they are exposed to 2 or more languages at one time. One language, however, will usually become dominant over time. The best way to explain the TC philosophy of the 70's and 80's was to use anything and everything. A little of this, and a little of that. Very electic. That electisim was the problem...no strong foundation in anything. It is one thing to use an integrative approach....quite another to use an electic approach.

Today
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04-20-2008, 01:44 PM	#32 (permalink)
InnocentOdion HOH and learnin' sign! Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: England, United Kingdom Posts: 160	Personally I think ASL (or in my case BSL) is the best choice. I'm quite keen on SEE and I want to learn some of the grammar signs (the British variation preferably, but ASL SEE will do until then. Someone could always help and link to a website with video with like, "the", "a", "to", "for", etc) just so I can explain myself a little better at times. This is more to do with the fact I'm still learning sign language. On the downside, SEE is really slow compared to ASL, and has been described as "two-dimensional". Here's an example of the differences: ASL: YouTube - Introduction in ASL SEE: YouTube - Another introduction of myself BUT in Signed English ps: that isn't me I tend to use PSE the most, because I sign to my wife mainly. I'd prefer it if my signing grammar was better so I could use something else, but in time I shall.

04-20-2008, 01:55 PM	#33 (permalink)
jillio Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 13,814	The biggest problem with the MCEs is that they use a mode intended to convey information in a time oriented and spatial way and change it to a linear arrangement intended for auditory information. The ear and the eye process information differently. That is one of the reasons that they seem so cumbersome in use. The brain is actually having to translate in processing, and it is tiring.

04-21-2008, 01:27 PM	#37 (permalink)
Chase Retired on ex-mod pension Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Albany, Oregon Posts: 2,066	Superior, stupid, and ugly are certainly in the eye of the beholder. I use ASL when signing with my older sister, deaf since birth, and mostly ASL grammar when writing back and forth, because that's her language. I use SEE when signing with my girlfriend and English when writing back and forth, because that's her language. Stupid would be to force her into another way. Ugly just doesn't make sense when she's signing the best she knows how to accommodate me. If I knew someone who preferred PSE, I'd most likely slip into that mode if it were what he or she knew best or preferred.

05-09-2008, 07:55 PM	#42 (permalink)
Meggie2 Hey y'all Join Date: May 2008 Location: Florida Posts: 1,273	I sign PSE too. I was taught first SEE Then spoken English language then Asl