Order of Sentences

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shelbrose

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I have been told about the sentence order from my teacher about signing the sentence in a specific order but I have been told that you don't need to and mainly older signers do that. Is it really that important?
 
shelbrose said:
I have been told about the sentence order from my teacher about signing the sentence in a specific order but I have been told that you don't need to and mainly older signers do that. Is it really that important?
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Important?

Yes...
 
shelbrose said:
I have been told about the sentence order from my teacher about signing the sentence in a specific order but I have been told that you don't need to and mainly older signers do that. Is it really that important?
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Have about I been told from my really teacher about sentence in specific order sentence older but I the have been important the told order that a need to and mainly that. It signers you do don't that signing is?


You tell me--is it important? :)
 
Reba said:
Have about I been told from my really teacher about sentence in specific order sentence older but I the have been important the told order that a need to and mainly that. It signers you do don't that signing is?


You tell me--is it important? :)
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I probably shouldn't have put important but I mean do you always have to do it that way? I just want things to be cleared up.
 
Reba said:
Have about I been told from my really teacher about sentence in specific order sentence older but I the have been important the told order that a need to and mainly that. It signers you do don't that signing is?


You tell me--is it important? :)
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:laugh2:

This is beautiful right here... <3
 
shelbrose said:
I probably shouldn't have put important but I mean do you always have to do it that way? I just want things to be cleared up.
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Do you mean do you have to use proper grammar in ASL?

Ummm - Do you have to use proper grammar in English, French, German, Italian etc ?

ASL is a language, and just like any proper language it has grammar and sentence structures that need to be adhered to for the language to make sense.
 
shelbrose said:
I have been told about the sentence order from my teacher about signing the sentence in a specific order but I have been told that you don't need to and mainly older signers do that. Is it really that important?
Click to expand...

Did the teacher tell you both of these or is it someone other than the teacher that's telling you the second part?
 
Rogus said:
Did the teacher tell you both of these or is it someone other than the teacher that's telling you the second part?
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My teacher told us you sign the sentence out like Time, Place, Person, Action, and then Need. But someone at deaf coffee said you didn't need to do it in that order
 
shelbrose said:
My teacher told us you sign the sentence out like Time, Place, Person, Action, and then Need. But someone at deaf coffee said you didn't need to do it in that order
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yes you do need to do it in that order. a deaf coffee is a terrible place especially for ASL students because you will learn bad habits from them. first... form a solid foundation... and then it's up to you to develop your own style.
 
Jiro said:
yes you do need to do it in that order. a deaf coffee is a terrible place especially for ASL students because you will learn bad habits from them. first... form a solid foundation... and then it's up to you to develop your own style.
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Oh alright. Thanks I appreciate it.
 
shelbrose said:
My teacher told us you sign the sentence out like Time, Place, Person, Action, and then Need. But someone at deaf coffee said you didn't need to do it in that order
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"ASL is a distinct language, and (like most other languages) it does not map perfectly to English. There is no equivalent for many specific words and the syntax is completely different. Culturally Deaf people, signing with each other, usually use ASL, but many people, (frequently deaf or hard of hearing) who learn to sign later in life, after hearing and using spoken English, do not sign strictly in ASL. Instead, they use a mixture of ASL and English that is known as PSE.

With PSE, someone might sign most of the English words of a sentence and use approximately the English syntax.

PSE is not Signed Exact English (SEE), which uses signs for exact English words (even signs that don't exist in ASL) and exact English word order. SEE is most frequently used in educational settings, where the theory is it will help the children learn English. PSE is most frequently used by people whose primary language is spoken English.

Culturally Deaf people are usually very adept at understanding and using this blend of English and ASL when they sign with someone who doesn't strictly use ASL."

Most of what I see at Deaf Socials that I attend that are open to the public is PSE and perhaps the reason for the comment that ASL sentence structure is not "needed." It's not needed for understanding or communication, but you're definitely not using ASL. However, even in ASL there is some flexibility in sentence structure. It can certainly be confusing to someone learning the language. While an admirable goal is ASL, I think it's more important to learn to communicate with each other.
 
Rogus said:
"ASL is a distinct language, and (like most other languages) it does not map perfectly to English. There is no equivalent for many specific words and the syntax is completely different. Culturally Deaf people, signing with each other, usually use ASL, but many people, (frequently deaf or hard of hearing) who learn to sign later in life, after hearing and using spoken English, do not sign strictly in ASL. Instead, they use a mixture of ASL and English that is known as PSE.

With PSE, someone might sign most of the English words of a sentence and use approximately the English syntax.

PSE is not Signed Exact English (SEE), which uses signs for exact English words (even signs that don't exist in ASL) and exact English word order. SEE is most frequently used in educational settings, where the theory is it will help the children learn English. PSE is most frequently used by people whose primary language is spoken English.

Culturally Deaf people are usually very adept at understanding and using this blend of English and ASL when they sign with someone who doesn't strictly use ASL."

Most of what I see at Deaf Socials that I attend that are open to the public is PSE and perhaps the reason for the comment that ASL sentence structure is not "needed." It's not needed for understanding or communication, but you're definitely not using ASL. However, even in ASL there is some flexibility in sentence structure. It can certainly be confusing to someone learning the language. While an admirable goal is ASL, I think it's more important to learn to communicate with each other.
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That definitely makes more sense. My teacher didn't go into depth with that she was kind of like do this and yeah. We've been learning more vocab then conversation type of things. Thanks so much, by the way.
 
You could theoretically break order or drop elements for some types of sentences (just as you could with English), but you generally want to stick to a specific order and syntax (just as you should with English). Not to mention you should master the correct order before really moving to anything nonstandard--whether that nonstandard is also correct or not (e.g. you would correct a small child saying "me want cookie" in English even though that is technically an understandable sentence that could be used by an adult (though it would make an adult look immature)).

(I tried to think of a more "correct" example than the cookie one, but I couldn't at present.)
 
That order (time, place, person, action) is not terribly different than what you might see at the beginning of a script. In fact, for some, it might be helpful to think of showing what you want to say in a quasi play or movie instead of trying to "describe" it using our linear English format.
 
yes..
i older signer and would use bsl grammer ...would get confused...always right and wrong way a few grey areas
 
Another way to approach sentence structure is setting up the biggest thing first and working your way to the smallest.

English: The towels are on the shelf in the closet in the upstairs bathroom.

Code: 
ASL:
___________________________________t
UPSTAIRS BATHROOM CLOSET SHELF TOWEL THERE.
A very important thing to remember is that ASL is not English on the hands. One helpful way to remember this is to think of a simple sentence. The syntactical structures are wholly different from each other.

English: "I am going to the store."

Code: 
ASL: 
____t
STORE ME GOTO.
(If you're unfamiliar with the "____t", it's the ASL GLOSS form to denote the sentence topic. Part of the grammar is having your eyebrows raised for the topic)


~ Audrey Arndt, hearing, ITP student
 
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