Celebrity apprentice and oral v ASL issues

RoseRodent · 05-08-2012, 05:31 PM

I've been watching the Celebrity Apprentice for some time (I know, but I can't give it up either) and something really interesting has struck me about the last 2 seasons. The previous season featured Marlee Matlin, accompanied throughout by her interpreter. I didn't hear a single negative reference to her deafness throughout the show, at least none made the cut to air. She was involved in every aspect of the show, including giving presentations. Nobody ever said "handicap".

This season we have Lou Ferrigno. What a contrast! Every boardroom features a reference to Lou and his 'bad' speech and his "handicap". Is it because Lou is not as strong a player as Marlee clearly was, and it's easy to pin that on the hearing issues? Or is it because with an interpreter in tow Marlee took less effort for the other contestants to accommodate so they didn't feel it? Was it a better batch of contestants? Or a tacit understanding that Marlee would simply flatten anyone who even tried to go there?

Perhaps they feel that Lou is doing a hearing thing but not as well as a hearing person, rather than doing a Deaf thing?

I certainly don't have the answers, but it's very interesting to watch it all unfold.

Grayma · 05-08-2012, 07:53 PM

I don't watch it, so I don't know.

But my own personal impression of the two actors has nothing to do with their deafness. My first instinct is that Marlee comes across as smarter than Lou more because of physical appearance- you know, the dumb athlete stereotype.

It would be the same with any other great, hulking male up against Marlee. If you asked me who was smarter, Marlee or Sylvester Stallone, I'd say Marlee gives the impression of being smarter.

I realize that's really not fair at all. And of course I don't know what's going on in the minds of the people on that program. And I am not saying that his speech or hearing issues have nothing to do with their impressions of him. I just suspect that 'the dumb athlete' idea has to be at least a subtle part of what's going on. I wonder if there's any connection in people's minds with the old Hulk character he played, too?

RoseRodent · 05-15-2012, 03:59 PM

There has definitely been an element of that, people feel that Lou is a weaker overall player and has few talents but for being The Hulk all the time. But then again they don't let him play the game, because they keep saying he can't do this and can't do that because he has this "handicap". They say he cannot make presentations because of his speech - Marlee did presentations left right and centre. Making presentations is a really core part of the Apprentice format, so being told you can't do that is being consigned very much to the background. Why shouldn't he give a presentation? But they kept telling him no. He's perfectly intelligible, the role was not a radio actor (though would it necessarily matter if it was?) it was making a factual presentation to company executives, why should he not be allowed to do that because they perceive his speech to be imperfect? And he allowed them to tell him so! He went out reasonably early in the process so it's hard to see how that followed through, but it was noticeable in even that short run.

kokonut · 05-15-2012, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoseRodent

There has definitely been an element of that, people feel that Lou is a weaker overall player and has few talents but for being The Hulk all the time. But then again they don't let him play the game, because they keep saying he can't do this and can't do that because he has this "handicap". They say he cannot make presentations because of his speech - Marlee did presentations left right and centre. Making presentations is a really core part of the Apprentice format, so being told you can't do that is being consigned very much to the background. Why shouldn't he give a presentation? But they kept telling him no. He's perfectly intelligible, the role was not a radio actor (though would it necessarily matter if it was?) it was making a factual presentation to company executives, why should he not be allowed to do that because they perceive his speech to be imperfect? And he allowed them to tell him so! He went out reasonably early in the process so it's hard to see how that followed through, but it was noticeable in even that short run.

He in fact did an outstanding speech presentation in the Walmart walk for health campaign pitch using his recent hip and knee replacements surgery story as an example of how walking is a simple but effective exercise for post-surgery recovery. Even Lisa Lampenelli was impressed with his speech presentation.

deafbirk · 05-16-2012, 03:13 AM

Lou is dumb as a rock compared to marleen. His social skills were lacking in the extreme. Then in the boardroom lou would always bring up his handicapp lookingbfor the pity vote. The show requires the contestants to have very good social skills, how to control and use. People as well

Frisky Feline · 05-16-2012, 09:58 AM

Lou grew up speaking only.

I think it has something to have confidence about ASL that looks natural. that make sense why MM has it.

I ve been meeting a lot of anyone who speaks only and haven't learn ASL, i know NOT ALL OF THEM, but some of them have awkward social skills for both hearing and deaf world. It is too common. Self issues get complicated etc. oh well

Grayma · 05-16-2012, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frisky Feline

Lou grew up speaking only.

I think it has something to have confidence about ASL that looks natural. that make sense why MM has it.

I ve been meeting a lot of anyone who speaks only and haven't learn ASL, i know NOT ALL OF THEM, but some of them have awkward social skills for both hearing and deaf world. It is too common. Self issues get complicated etc. oh well

That makes sense, Frisky. Maybe the exceptions, those who have good social skills and confidence even if they didn't learn ASL until they were older depends on reasons why they grew up not learning ASL, too, the parents' attitude toward their child's deafness.

Some parents might not have gone the ASL route just because they didn't really fully understand sign language, maybe didn't have access to good information ( especially parents the generation of Lou F's parents, for instance), and others would have actively rejected it because they weren't comfortable with deafness at all- I don't know if I am explaining myself well, here.

Two sets of parents might make the same mistake- but they make it for different reasons, and if their reasons were that they were uncomfortable, upset, sad, or ashamed about their child being deaf, then their kid would naturally have more of a struggle than a child whose parents just made the mistake due to a lack of information.

**Bottesini** · 05-16-2012, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grayma

That makes sense, Frisky. Maybe the exceptions, those who have good social skills and confidence even if they didn't learn ASL until they were older depends on reasons why they grew up not learning ASL, too, the parents' attitude toward their child's deafness.

Some parents might not have gone the ASL route just because they didn't really fully understand sign language, maybe didn't have access to good information ( especially parents the generation of Lou F's parents, for instance), and others would have actively rejected it because they weren't comfortable with deafness at all- I don't know if I am explaining myself well, here.

Two sets of parents might make the same mistake- but they make it for different reasons, and if their reasons were that they were uncomfortable, upset, sad, or ashamed about their child being deaf, then their kid would naturally have more of a struggle than a child whose parents just made the mistake due to a lack of information.

Oral kids have the same struggle no matter the reason of the parents.

Grayma · 05-16-2012, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bottesini

Oral kids have the same struggle no matter the reason of the parents.

I am not trying to minimize the struggle, (I knew I wasn't making sense)-

Frisky said she usually sees deaf adults who didn't learn ASL until later struggle with social skills, although there were exceptions. I am just curious about how the exceptions were able to get through the same struggles without the problems in social skills that Frisky was talking about.

**Bottesini** · 05-16-2012, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grayma

I am not trying to minimize the struggle, (I knew I wasn't making sense)-

Frisky said she usually sees deaf adults who didn't learn ASL until later struggle with social skills, although there were exceptions. I am just curious about how the exceptions were able to get through the same struggles without the problems in social skills that Frisky was talking about.

I think she was being polite in case any oral adults don't know their social skills are messed up and want to argue.

kokonut · 05-16-2012, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grayma

I am not trying to minimize the struggle, (I knew I wasn't making sense)-

Frisky said she usually sees deaf adults who didn't learn ASL until later struggle with social skills, although there were exceptions. I am just curious about how the exceptions were able to get through the same struggles without the problems in social skills that Frisky was talking about.

That depends on a lot of factors. Not everybody is the same. Not everybody has the same kind of hearing loss. Parents are different. Interests are different. Interactions are different. And this "social skills" definition is an overly broad one.

RoseRodent · 05-16-2012, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grayma

Frisky said she usually sees deaf adults who didn't learn ASL until later struggle with social skills, although there were exceptions. I am just curious about how the exceptions were able to get through the same struggles without the problems in social skills that Frisky was talking about.

I think because children have a wider range of influences than just their parents. Perhaps some have encountered positive influences at school, from a ToD, a neighbour, the girl scouts, whatever. Some kids are naturally social people who long to be the life and soul of the party and will put in whatever effort it takes to make sure that they are the social centre in spite of any reasons why that should be difficult for them. Some come from households where social skills are highly prized so although they find things more challenging being deaf they pick up a whole lot more than the deaf child in a less social household. My mum had mental health problems and saw the world outside as a dangerous place and socialising as a horrible form of torture. Needless to say my social skills lack some pizazz!

Some schools realise that a child who doesn't socialise very well needs to be taught how to socialise, as opposed to being shoved clueless into engineered social situations. I was constantly told that because I didn't work well in a group it was important for me to work in groups more. But there was no skills program with that, and no awareness and inclusion program for my peers, just do it more and it will naturally get better. I'm not sure how many times you'd have to push the average person in deep water before they naturally learn how to swim, but isn't it quicker and less painful to teach them to swim rather than just keep pushing them in? Yet with social issues it is almost always assumed that if you are forced to be with people you will learn by some form of osmosis of exposure how to be social with them. Not being able to hear I didn't pick up the subtleties of how people interacted so my natural response to a group situation was to sit in the corner doing the work while they talked about last night's TV, so what we looked like we produced was a group project on WW2 or the Vikings or whatever. I was more than happy to do the academic work that they hated and they did the social development that I hated! I'd love to go to "How to make friends, keep friends and respond to common social situations 101" if only it were out there.

kokonut · 05-16-2012, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoseRodent

I think because children have a wider range of influences than just their parents. Perhaps some have encountered positive influences at school, from a ToD, a neighbour, the girl scouts, whatever. Some kids are naturally social people who long to be the life and soul of the party and will put in whatever effort it takes to make sure that they are the social centre in spite of any reasons why that should be difficult for them. Some come from households where social skills are highly prized so although they find things more challenging being deaf they pick up a whole lot more than the deaf child in a less social household. My mum had mental health problems and saw the world outside as a dangerous place and socialising as a horrible form of torture. Needless to say my social skills lack some pizazz!

Some schools realise that a child who doesn't socialise very well needs to be taught how to socialise, as opposed to being shoved clueless into engineered social situations. I was constantly told that because I didn't work well in a group it was important for me to work in groups more. But there was no skills program with that, and no awareness and inclusion program for my peers, just do it more and it will naturally get better. I'm not sure how many times you'd have to push the average person in deep water before they naturally learn how to swim, but isn't it quicker and less painful to teach them to swim rather than just keep pushing them in? Yet with social issues it is almost always assumed that if you are forced to be with people you will learn by some form of osmosis of exposure how to be social with them. Not being able to hear I didn't pick up the subtleties of how people interacted so my natural response to a group situation was to sit in the corner doing the work while they talked about last night's TV, so what we looked like we produced was a group project on WW2 or the Vikings or whatever. I was more than happy to do the academic work that they hated and they did the social development that I hated! I'd love to go to "How to make friends, keep friends and respond to common social situations 101" if only it were out there.

What's your definition of "social skill"? If you don't mind me asking.

Frisky Feline · 05-16-2012, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grayma

That makes sense, Frisky. Maybe the exceptions, those who have good social skills and confidence even if they didn't learn ASL until they were older depends on reasons why they grew up not learning ASL, too, the parents' attitude toward their child's deafness.

Some parents might not have gone the ASL route just because they didn't really fully understand sign language, maybe didn't have access to good information ( especially parents the generation of Lou F's parents, for instance), and others would have actively rejected it because they weren't comfortable with deafness at all- I don't know if I am explaining myself well, here.

Two sets of parents might make the same mistake- but they make it for different reasons, and if their reasons were that they were uncomfortable, upset, sad, or ashamed about their child being deaf, then their kid would naturally have more of a struggle than a child whose parents just made the mistake due to a lack of information.

who knows.
my parents arent good at ASL but excellent at make up signs to communicate with me. I did learn a form of sign language like PSE or SEE through school. However I learned ASL so much from Deaf family. I had a good childhood. I believe anyone who accept for who they are then they are OK. I accepted myself for years except around age 7 or 8 it just dawned on me that i am not the same as the majority of people. Some of them have been struggling to be who they are that may leads to the awkward social skill. I have friends who have awkward social skills and i like them. I understand them where they came from, based on their parents' belief. No one is purrfect.

JanatheShort · 05-16-2012, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoseRodent

I think because children have a wider range of influences than just their parents. Perhaps some have encountered positive influences at school, from a ToD, a neighbour, the girl scouts, whatever. Some kids are naturally social people who long to be the life and soul of the party and will put in whatever effort it takes to make sure that they are the social centre in spite of any reasons why that should be difficult for them. Some come from households where social skills are highly prized so although they find things more challenging being deaf they pick up a whole lot more than the deaf child in a less social household. My mum had mental health problems and saw the world outside as a dangerous place and socialising as a horrible form of torture. Needless to say my social skills lack some pizazz!

Some schools realise that a child who doesn't socialise very well needs to be taught how to socialise, as opposed to being shoved clueless into engineered social situations. I was constantly told that because I didn't work well in a group it was important for me to work in groups more. But there was no skills program with that, and no awareness and inclusion program for my peers, just do it more and it will naturally get better. I'm not sure how many times you'd have to push the average person in deep water before they naturally learn how to swim, but isn't it quicker and less painful to teach them to swim rather than just keep pushing them in? Yet with social issues it is almost always assumed that if you are forced to be with people you will learn by some form of osmosis of exposure how to be social with them. Not being able to hear I didn't pick up the subtleties of how people interacted so my natural response to a group situation was to sit in the corner doing the work while they talked about last night's TV, so what we looked like we produced was a group project on WW2 or the Vikings or whatever. I was more than happy to do the academic work that they hated and they did the social development that I hated! I'd love to go to "How to make friends, keep friends and respond to common social situations 101" if only it were out there.

There is a book out there about How to Win Friends and Influence People, or something like htat. I heard it's really good.

RoseRodent · 05-16-2012, 02:55 PM

They all seem to think you know how to handle the most basic social situations and want to achieve certain ends. I just want to not p people off! I don't know how to tell if a conversation is open to all or if it's private between two people, for example. I always thought unless someone came over and spoke to me personally or introduced me to a person then their conversation was between them. But then one office said I was stand-offish and that I never joined in socially... because I thought they were all friends and weren't talking to me, when actually if I managed to catch any of what they were saying I was free to join in with my opinions on the same topic. But sometimes you aren't. I don't know which is which. I didn't know for years that when someone says "How are you?" you are just supposed to say "I'm fine, how are you" - it's not a question! I don't get that whole small talk thing and I don't know how quickly it's OK to walk away when a stranger stops you and talks to you about the weather, how long are you meant to stop and talk to them, that kind of really basic thing.

05-08-2012, 05:31 PM	#1 (permalink)
RoseRodent Registered User Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Scotland Posts: 339	Celebrity apprentice and oral v ASL issues I've been watching the Celebrity Apprentice for some time (I know, but I can't give it up either) and something really interesting has struck me about the last 2 seasons. The previous season featured Marlee Matlin, accompanied throughout by her interpreter. I didn't hear a single negative reference to her deafness throughout the show, at least none made the cut to air. She was involved in every aspect of the show, including giving presentations. Nobody ever said "handicap". This season we have Lou Ferrigno. What a contrast! Every boardroom features a reference to Lou and his 'bad' speech and his "handicap". Is it because Lou is not as strong a player as Marlee clearly was, and it's easy to pin that on the hearing issues? Or is it because with an interpreter in tow Marlee took less effort for the other contestants to accommodate so they didn't feel it? Was it a better batch of contestants? Or a tacit understanding that Marlee would simply flatten anyone who even tried to go there? Perhaps they feel that Lou is doing a hearing thing but not as well as a hearing person, rather than doing a Deaf thing? I certainly don't have the answers, but it's very interesting to watch it all unfold.

05-16-2012, 09:58 AM	#6 (permalink)
Frisky Feline Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 20,239	Lou grew up speaking only. I think it has something to have confidence about ASL that looks natural. that make sense why MM has it. I ve been meeting a lot of anyone who speaks only and haven't learn ASL, i know NOT ALL OF THEM, but some of them have awkward social skills for both hearing and deaf world. It is too common. Self issues get complicated etc. oh well KristinaB likes this.

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05-08-2012, 07:53 PM	#2 (permalink)
Grayma Registered User Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 958	I don't watch it, so I don't know. But my own personal impression of the two actors has nothing to do with their deafness. My first instinct is that Marlee comes across as smarter than Lou more because of physical appearance- you know, the dumb athlete stereotype. It would be the same with any other great, hulking male up against Marlee. If you asked me who was smarter, Marlee or Sylvester Stallone, I'd say Marlee gives the impression of being smarter. I realize that's really not fair at all. And of course I don't know what's going on in the minds of the people on that program. And I am not saying that his speech or hearing issues have nothing to do with their impressions of him. I just suspect that 'the dumb athlete' idea has to be at least a subtle part of what's going on. I wonder if there's any connection in people's minds with the old Hulk character he played, too?

05-15-2012, 03:59 PM	#3 (permalink)
RoseRodent Registered User Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Scotland Posts: 339	There has definitely been an element of that, people feel that Lou is a weaker overall player and has few talents but for being The Hulk all the time. But then again they don't let him play the game, because they keep saying he can't do this and can't do that because he has this "handicap". They say he cannot make presentations because of his speech - Marlee did presentations left right and centre. Making presentations is a really core part of the Apprentice format, so being told you can't do that is being consigned very much to the background. Why shouldn't he give a presentation? But they kept telling him no. He's perfectly intelligible, the role was not a radio actor (though would it necessarily matter if it was?) it was making a factual presentation to company executives, why should he not be allowed to do that because they perceive his speech to be imperfect? And he allowed them to tell him so! He went out reasonably early in the process so it's hard to see how that followed through, but it was noticeable in even that short run.

05-16-2012, 03:13 AM	#5 (permalink)
deafbirk Banned Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 618	Lou is dumb as a rock compared to marleen. His social skills were lacking in the extreme. Then in the boardroom lou would always bring up his handicapp lookingbfor the pity vote. The show requires the contestants to have very good social skills, how to control and use. People as well

05-16-2012, 02:55 PM	#16 (permalink)
RoseRodent Registered User Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Scotland Posts: 339	They all seem to think you know how to handle the most basic social situations and want to achieve certain ends. I just want to not p people off! I don't know how to tell if a conversation is open to all or if it's private between two people, for example. I always thought unless someone came over and spoke to me personally or introduced me to a person then their conversation was between them. But then one office said I was stand-offish and that I never joined in socially... because I thought they were all friends and weren't talking to me, when actually if I managed to catch any of what they were saying I was free to join in with my opinions on the same topic. But sometimes you aren't. I don't know which is which. I didn't know for years that when someone says "How are you?" you are just supposed to say "I'm fine, how are you" - it's not a question! I don't get that whole small talk thing and I don't know how quickly it's OK to walk away when a stranger stops you and talks to you about the weather, how long are you meant to stop and talk to them, that kind of really basic thing.