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Unread 10-04-2011, 09:39 AM   #1
GrendelQ
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New "MSSD/Bilingual High School" to comprise deaf, HOH, & hearing students

What do you think of point 5 in Gallaudet's 2012-2022 Master Plan Announcement?

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5. Forge new partnerships to advance the university by working with the District to create a "MSSD/Bilingual High School" composed of deaf, hard of hearing, and hearing students in the current location of the Hamilton School of the D.C. Public Schools district. The Model Secondary School for the Deaf (MSSD) would relocate to this space and its current structure would be replaced by a large park on the northern end of the campus with sports fields and other recreation areas. These areas would primarily serve the proposed MSSD/Bilingual High School, but would also be open to the surrounding community, thus creating an enduring tie to a community currently without open spaces of any kind. Such a park would give the community what it has never had-an open space for park land for the Ivy City and Trinidad communities.
(came across this here)
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Unread 10-04-2011, 09:55 AM   #2
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Not surprising. Check out who's on Gallaudet's administrator's list. AGB.
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Unread 10-04-2011, 10:47 AM   #3
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I do not know what to say because i know deaf culture changes a LOT. oh well.
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Unread 10-04-2011, 07:02 PM   #4
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Now here's a question. Not all hearing students are Hearing. Like there are CODAs, siblings of dhh kids, and even hearing kids who use Sign as a primary language due to things like apraxia, tracheostomies, CP etc.
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Unread 10-05-2011, 07:02 AM   #5
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Hard to fully determine the bilingual-bicultural learning model or concept they have in mind, but it seems that this might be a district school that serves the local community's students and provides an educational environment targeted at deaf/HOH students. Maybe a shared space with students segregated into two schools, maybe integrated classes, much like a mainstreaming approach with intensive services for the deaf/HOH students.

MSSD is one of Gallaudet's day/residential demonstration schools started in the 60's to show how ASL can be effectively used as the language of instruction/interaction in a school for the deaf, it's one of the pioneers of the bilingual approach and started a year before my daughter's bi-bi school. I took a look at MSSD's AYP, and it looks awfully grim. Enrollment is declining (140), 95% of students fall below state standards in reading (80% "well below"), 90% fall below in science, and 87% fall below in math. Less than 10 students meet or exceed standards in any of these -- reading, math, or science -- although they are graduating students at a rate of 91%.

I wonder if this change is driven primarily by fiscal need or if inadequate academic outcomes have led Gallaudet to reconceive this new vision for secondary schools for the Deaf. I'm eager to see what the new model for instruction will be.
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Unread 10-05-2011, 10:20 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by GrendelQ View Post
Hard to fully determine the bilingual-bicultural learning model or concept they have in mind, but it seems that this might be a district school that serves the local community's students and provides an educational environment targeted at deaf/HOH students. Maybe a shared space with students segregated into two schools, maybe integrated classes, much like a mainstreaming approach with intensive services for the deaf/HOH students.

MSSD is one of Gallaudet's day/residential demonstration schools started in the 60's to show how ASL can be effectively used as the language of instruction/interaction in a school for the deaf, it's one of the pioneers of the bilingual approach and started a year before my daughter's bi-bi school. I took a look at MSSD's AYP, and it looks awfully grim. Enrollment is declining (140), 95% of students fall below state standards in reading (80% "well below"), 90% fall below in science, and 87% fall below in math. Less than 10 students meet or exceed standards in any of these -- reading, math, or science -- although they are graduating students at a rate of 91%.

I wonder if this change is driven primarily by fiscal need or if inadequate academic outcomes have led Gallaudet to reconceive this new vision for secondary schools for the Deaf. I'm eager to see what the new model for instruction will be.
What's the foundation for most of these kids, as in k-8? What background?
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Unread 10-05-2011, 06:36 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by posts from hell View Post
What's the foundation for most of these kids, as in k-8? What background?
Exactly. Most kids who are at high school for Deaf School are former mainstreamers. I know you guys do not understand but a lot of Deaf Schools are sadly dumping grounds. If they reversed the philsophy, and did intense deaf schooling early on, and didn't have a lot of kids falling through the cracks in the mainstream, scores at deaf schools would IMPROVE!
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Unread 10-06-2011, 11:21 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by GrendelQ View Post
What do you think of point 5 in Gallaudet's 2012-2022 Master Plan Announcement?



(came across this here)
Sounds like an interesting idea and if it will truly be a mix of deaf, hoh and hearing kids then I think you will see a bi/bi approach with a stronger emphasis on the inclusion of spoken English than is found in most bi/bi programs. It seems it will be similar to the ASL/English school at 47 in NYC.

As to its effect on the campus, I was only on the Gallaudet campus once and do not know where the HS is located. Its a nice campus and like many urban college campuses, much nicer than its surrounding area.
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Unread 10-07-2011, 07:41 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by deafdyke View Post
Exactly. Most kids who are at high school for Deaf School are former mainstreamers. I know you guys do not understand but a lot of Deaf Schools are sadly dumping grounds. If they reversed the philsophy, and did intense deaf schooling early on, and didn't have a lot of kids falling through the cracks in the mainstream, scores at deaf schools would IMPROVE!
DD, I don't have placement figures or enrollment data to support that or not, but what you and PFH have said here and elsewhere begs a question. If, as you suggest, most Deaf schools are populated primarily by low-performing former mainstreamers or other deaf kids "dumped" at the schools whose scores fall at a rate of 80-95% below minimum passing standards, and the high-performing Deaf students and former students at Deaf primary schools and programs are being mainstreamed in far higher-performing schools, where would you place a high-performing Deaf middle schooler if your goal is a high quality, challenging education and interaction with wonderful peers and language models?
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Unread 10-07-2011, 12:23 PM   #10
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DD, I don't have placement figures or enrollment data to support that or not, but what you and PFH have said here and elsewhere begs a question. If, as you suggest, most Deaf schools are populated primarily by low-performing former mainstreamers or other deaf kids "dumped" at the schools whose scores fall at a rate of 80-95% below minimum passing standards, and the high-performing Deaf students and former students at Deaf primary schools and programs are being mainstreamed in far higher-performing schools, where would you place a high-performing Deaf middle schooler if your goal is a high quality, challenging education and interaction with wonderful peers and language models?
I'd suggest you to look at the stats of who graduated from MSSD that was there from the start.. Kendall all the way up to completion at MSSD.

See the students that have done that then make your decision.
I could name drop here, but I'll let you do the research.

In a way, I am saying I'd put my kid in Kendall first to answer your question.
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Unread 10-07-2011, 01:14 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by posts from hell View Post
I'd suggest you to look at the stats of who graduated from MSSD that was there from the start.. Kendall all the way up to completion at MSSD.

See the students that have done that then make your decision.
I could name drop here, but I'll let you do the research.

In a way, I am saying I'd put my kid in Kendall first to answer your question.
I don't think we can keep our children in primary school forever . Kendall's results look pretty abysmal, too, sadly. Not sure what your answer is, though, whether you have been mainstreaming your child or have an out of district placement at Kendall or anotherr deaf primary school : when it comes time to consider secondary school, would you enroll your child at MSSD or mainstream at your local school, given tge info about demographics DD provides?
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Unread 10-07-2011, 01:19 PM   #12
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I don't think we can keep our children in primary school forever . Kendall's results look pretty abysmal, too, sadly. Not sure what your answer is, though, whether you have been mainstreaming your child or have an out of district placement at Kendall or anotherr deaf primary school : when it comes time to consider secondary school, would you enroll your child at MSSD or mainstream at your local school, given tge info about demographics DD provides?
Given these choices, MSSD without a second thought. You're failing to realize that I hang out with several MSSDers. My ex was a MSSDer. The list goes on. I don't follow the "research". Feel free to if you wish.

I know the results, I live in it.
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Unread 10-07-2011, 06:43 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by rick48 View Post
Sounds like an interesting idea and if it will truly be a mix of deaf, hoh and hearing kids then I think you will see a bi/bi approach with a stronger emphasis on the inclusion of spoken English than is found in most bi/bi programs. It seems it will be similar to the ASL/English school at 47 in NYC.

.
And you would know how much spoken language is used in bi-bi programs how?
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Unread 10-07-2011, 07:06 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by GrendelQ View Post
DD, I don't have placement figures or enrollment data to support that or not, but what you and PFH have said here and elsewhere begs a question. If, as you suggest, most Deaf schools are populated primarily by low-performing former mainstreamers or other deaf kids "dumped" at the schools whose scores fall at a rate of 80-95% below minimum passing standards, and the high-performing Deaf students and former students at Deaf primary schools and programs are being mainstreamed in far higher-performing schools, where would you place a high-performing Deaf middle schooler if your goal is a high quality, challenging education and interaction with wonderful peers and language models?
I would problay send them to a Deaf School, but ALSO supplement with mainstreaming. Like they would go to Deaf School for Deaf Skills.....I think too they could take advantage of living on campus, but also be able to take advantage of mainstreaming in a public school district that was familiar with how to teach dhh kids and had a significent dhh population. NO kid should have to deal with the hell of a solotaire mainstream high school education. No kid....seriously, even the academic high acheivers very often have major social defiects.....and that's really one of the keys to getting a good job that really tends to be MAJORLY glossed over or given lip service. There ARE decent Deaf Schools, and virtually ALL of them offer the option of attending classes on campus, and then attending mainstream classes.
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Unread 10-07-2011, 07:16 PM   #15
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DD, you have to understand that Grendel's post was made to incite controversy.

What parent is going to move their child who is already "a high-performing Deaf middle schooler" to another school?

What parent's goal was not to have their child perform in "high quality, challenging education and interaction with wonderful peers and language models" ?

When all other avenues have been exhausted and a child isn't doing well, either academically or socially, it's time to make a change. And if a Deaf school is considered as "dumping grounds" for that change, it's PROBABLY a better change than what they were situated in, if that change needed to be made at all, no?
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Unread 10-07-2011, 07:32 PM   #16
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1. My child IS at a deaf school, and our goal is to fight for placement as long as she remains happy and is getting an excellent education.

2. I didn't suggest mssd is a "dumping ground" or has a high population of formerly mainstreamed kids -- those 'facts' and insinuations were put out there by other posters.

My question is, if that's true, if the substandard outcomes are a result of the primarily (85-95%) low-performing, low-language student population, would you send your high performing kid into that environment?

Controversial? Maybe. I think that if mssd really is the dumping ground dd describes, maybe that's a driver for turning it into some type of Mainstream environment to change up the peers students wil be encountering. But then, I dont know how accurate dd's assessment is. Not a lot of discussion about why Gallaudet might be changing up the model of secondary education so radically.
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Last edited by GrendelQ; 10-07-2011 at 07:55 PM. Reason: Arrived -> driver
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Unread 10-07-2011, 08:00 PM   #17
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I would problay send them to a Deaf School, but ALSO supplement with mainstreaming. Like they would go to Deaf School for Deaf Skills.....I think too they could take advantage of living on campus, but also be able to take advantage of mainstreaming in a public school district that was familiar with how to teach dhh kids and had a significent dhh population. NO kid should have to deal with the hell of a solotaire mainstream high school education. No kid....seriously, even the academic high acheivers very often have major social defiects.....and that's really one of the keys to getting a good job that really tends to be MAJORLY glossed over or given lip service. There ARE decent Deaf Schools, and virtually ALL of them offer the option of attending classes on campus, and then attending mainstream classes.
Why are you assuming that all deaf kids who are mainstreamed go through hell? I am very happy with my education. I know some people who were mainstreamed and wish they had gone to a Deaf school, but that certainly isn't universal.
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Unread 10-07-2011, 08:01 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by posts from hell View Post
Given these choices, MSSD without a second thought. You're failing to realize that I hang out with several MSSDers. My ex was a MSSDer. The list goes on. I don't follow the "research". Feel free to if you wish.

I know the results, I live in it.
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I now thank goodness I have never once considered MSSD for my kid. Especially when Gallaudet is run by Hurwitz and some ex-AGB executives.
Seems contradictory? Did the people you know find that 80-95% of the population were what dd described and you brought up as a question: "dumped" mainstreamers new to a deaf school?
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Unread 10-07-2011, 08:03 PM   #19
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1. My child IS at a deaf school, and our goal is to fight for placement as long as she remains happy and is getting an excellent education.

2. I didn't suggest mssd is a "dumping ground" or has a high population of formerly mainstreamed kids -- those 'facts' and insinuations were put out there by other posters.

My question is, if that's true, if the substandard outcomes are a result of the primarily (85-95%) low-performing, low-language student population, would you send your high performing kid into that environment?

Controversial? Maybe. I think that if mssd really is the dumping ground dd describes, maybe that's a driver for turning it into some type of Mainstream environment to change up the peers students wil be encountering. But then, I dont know how accurate dd's assessment is. Not a lot of discussion about why Gallaudet might be changing up the model of secondary education so radically.
I think this is a legitimate question. If I end up with Deaf kids (which is perfectly possible ) I wouldn't default send my children to a Deaf school. I would need to look into the academics as well as the social and language environment. There are Deaf schools that have good outcomes and some that are failure factories. I think it is a parent's responsibility to make sure that their child can read and write. And there is no reason that shouldn't be the case for deaf child, no matter what language they use.
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Unread 10-07-2011, 08:06 PM   #20
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Seems contradictory? Did the people you know find that 80-95% of the population were what dd described and you brought up as a question: "dumped" mainstreamers new to a deaf school?
huh, please clarify
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Unread 10-07-2011, 08:13 PM   #21
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huh, please clarify
You asked about the background of the student population at mssd as a factor in test scores. You then cited close knowledge of those who attended and said you "lived it": what do you know of the student demographics? 80-95% recently transferred from mainstream?
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Unread 10-07-2011, 08:25 PM   #22
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Do you plan to enroll your daughter at MSSD?
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Unread 10-07-2011, 08:30 PM   #23
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Given these choices, MSSD without a second thought. You're failing to realize that I hang out with several MSSDers. My ex was a MSSDer. The list goes on. I don't follow the "research". Feel free to if you wish.

I know the results, I live in it.
I know many MSSDers who are doing just find now. Statistics mean shit.
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Unread 10-07-2011, 08:31 PM   #24
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Why are you assuming that all deaf kids who are mainstreamed go through hell? I am very happy with my education. I know some people who were mainstreamed and wish they had gone to a Deaf school, but that certainly isn't universal.
You had ASL at home, didnt you. Lucky you.
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Unread 10-07-2011, 08:31 PM   #25
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You asked about the background of the student population at mssd as a factor in test scores. You then cited close knowledge of those who attended and said you "lived it": what do you know of the student demographics? 80-95% recently transferred from mainstream?
what do you want to know? I'm not clear...
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Unread 10-07-2011, 08:32 PM   #26
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I know many MSSDers who are doing just find now. Statistics mean shit.
Thank you for putting my point out in an eloquent way.
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Unread 10-07-2011, 08:52 PM   #27
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I know many MSSDers who are doing just find now. Statistics mean shit.
Can't pro-AV and mainstreamers say the same thing? "So what if 80% of the kids fail, I know X number of deaf kids who did AV and turned out great."
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Unread 10-07-2011, 08:53 PM   #28
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Can't pro-AV and mainstreamers say the same thing? "So what if 80% of the kids fail, I know X number of deaf kids who did AV and turned out great."
Because it is a fact that ASL doesnt put deaf children at risks for language delays like oralism does. Also, I was a product of the oral-only philosophy. Since you had ASL growing up, you really have no idea what it is like to be restricted from communication and language 24/7.


Speaking from personal experience and then working with many deaf children who ended up with language delays and deficits from that philosophy itself.

Deaf children should have BOTH not just only AVT or oral only.
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Unread 10-07-2011, 08:55 PM   #29
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Because it is a fact that ASL doesnt put deaf children at risks for language delays like oralism does. Also, I was a product of the oral-only philosophy. Since you had ASL growing up, you really have no idea what it is like to be restricted from communication and language 24/7.


Speaking from personal experience and then working with many deaf children who ended up with language delays and deficits from that philosophy itself.

Deaf children should have BOTH not just only AVT or oral only.
I am just pointing out that you are making the same argument for Deaf schools that they make for oralism. If the truth is that Deaf schools are failing 80% of our kids something has to change.
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Unread 10-07-2011, 08:56 PM   #30
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Can't pro-AV and mainstreamers say the same thing? "So what if 80% of the kids fail, I know X number of deaf kids who did AV and turned out great."
But what Shel is saying is that stats mean squat on many occasions. Even the hearing parents (who love to use stats) say the same thing.
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