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Unread 05-26-2011, 08:22 PM   #1
jillio
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Affirmative Action: Racist or Not?

This is to continue a discussion that began in another thread, where a couple of posters have claimed that Affirmative Action laws are racist, yet have been able to explain how they are racist or why.

I maintain that Affirmative Action is not racist.

Give your thoughts and why you believe your opinion to be true.
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Unread 05-26-2011, 08:25 PM   #2
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while I wait for others to explain how it's racist, can you explain how Affirmative Action is not racist?
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Unread 05-26-2011, 08:30 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Jiro View Post
while I wait for others to explain how it's racist, can you explain how Affirmative Action is not racist?
Yes. Affirmative action is designed to help eliminate past and present discrimination based on race, gender, and national origin, particularly in employment and education. It's intent is to rectify past and prevent future racist and sexist discriminatory action.

For an action to be racist or sexist, it's intent is to marginalize, oppress, or discriminate against a specific group. The intent of Affirmative Action is completely opposite the intent of a racist act.
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Unread 05-26-2011, 08:42 PM   #4
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rac·ism   /ˈreɪsɪzəm/ Show Spelled
[rey-siz-uhm] Show IPA

–noun
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

Racism | Define Racism at Dictionary.com

*shrug*
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Unread 05-26-2011, 08:45 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by TXgolfer View Post
rac·ism   /ˈreɪsɪzəm/ Show Spelled
[rey-siz-uhm] Show IPA

–noun
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

Racism | Define Racism at Dictionary.com

*shrug*
Exactly. Thank you so much for supporting my statement that Affirmative Action is not racist as a result of intent.

However, you have defined "racism". We are discussing racist action. Or, in the case of your assertion, racist laws. In that case, it is not a noun, but an adjective. That needs to be made clear so that you don't accidentally support my position again.
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Unread 05-26-2011, 08:47 PM   #6
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Affirmative Action can be seen from both sides just as Discrimination can also be seen from both sides.

Let's look at it this way...

A white man and a black man apply for a job at a company. After interviewing both men, the company decides to hire the white man because they feel the white man is more qualified for the position based on his skills, education, experience, etc.

Now, the black man can look at it and say it's discrimination... or racist... because the company hired a white man over a black man.

What if the company decided to improve their image of diversity and hired the black man instead? That would be affirmative action... or racist... since they hired a black man over a white man.
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Unread 05-26-2011, 08:51 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by VamPyroX View Post
Affirmative Action can be seen from both sides just as Discrimination can also be seen from both sides.

Let's look at it this way...

A white man and a black man apply for a job at a company. After interviewing both men, the company decides to hire the white man because they feel the white man is more qualified for the position based on his skills, education, experience, etc.

In that case, it is neither discrimination, nor racism. It is hiring the candidate best qualified for the job.
Now, the black man can look at it and say it's discrimination... or racist... because the company hired a white man over a black man.

And he would be wrong.

What if the company decided to improve their image of diversity and hired the black man instead? That would be affirmative action... or racist... since they hired a black man over a white man.
Not exactly. What AA provides for is that when 2 candidates are equally qualified, one can not be excluded simply because of his race, her gender, or his/her ethnicity. Historically, that is what has happened in the workplace and the educational arena, and that is what AA intends to prevent.

Is part of the intent to correct those past injustices. Absolutely. But it would only be racist to allow those practices to continue. Is part of its intent to promote diversity? Absolutely. Because historically, diversity has been absent in certain areas of society as a direct result of racist and discriminatory practices.
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Unread 05-26-2011, 08:54 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by VamPyroX View Post
Affirmative Action can be seen from both sides just as Discrimination can also be seen from both sides.

Let's look at it this way...

A white man and a black man apply for a job at a company. After interviewing both men, the company decides to hire the white man because they feel the white man is more qualified for the position based on his skills, education, experience, etc.

Now, the black man can look at it and say it's discrimination... or racist... because the company hired a white man over a black man.

What if the company decided to improve their image of diversity and hired the black man instead? That would be affirmative action... or racist... since they hired a black man over a white man.
I call it reverse racism.
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Unread 05-26-2011, 08:54 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by VamPyroX View Post
Affirmative Action can be seen from both sides just as Discrimination can also be seen from both sides.

Let's look at it this way...

A white man and a black man apply for a job at a company. After interviewing both men, the company decides to hire the white man because they feel the white man is more qualified for the position based on his skills, education, experience, etc.

Now, the black man can look at it and say it's discrimination... or racist... because the company hired a white man over a black man.

What if the company decided to improve their image of diversity and hired the black man instead? That would be affirmative action... or racist... since they hired a black man over a white man.
Well, seeing how one was given an advantage solely on race.....sounds like racism either way to me. AA is just fighting racism with racism.

And if AA is government policy it fits squarely under definition #2

I don't even see a doubt.
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Unread 05-26-2011, 08:55 PM   #10
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I call it reverse racism.
There is no such thing as reverse racism. If one is discriminated against because of their race, whether it is white or black, it is still racism, period.
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Unread 05-26-2011, 08:56 PM   #11
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Well, seeing how one was given an advantage solely on race.....sounds like racism either way to me. AA is just fighting racism with racism.

And if AA is government policy it fits squarely under definition #2

I don't even see a doubt.
No one is given an advantage simply based on race or gender in AA. However, historically, both race and gender have been used as a means to discriminate in the workplace and the educational arena.

No, number 2 says a policy that fosters discrimination. AA prevents it against historically oppressed and marginalized groups.
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Unread 05-26-2011, 08:57 PM   #12
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Not exactly. What AA provides for is that when 2 candidates are equally qualified, one can not be excluded simply because of his race, her gender, or his/her ethnicity. Historically, that is what has happened in the workplace and the educational arena, and that is what AA intends to prevent..
The Civil Rights Act provides for that too.....Talk about redundancy
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Unread 05-26-2011, 09:00 PM   #13
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The Civil Rights Act provides for that too.....Talk about redundancy
Affirmative Action is that which makes the Civil Rights Act applicable. They are two very different laws.
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Unread 05-26-2011, 09:01 PM   #14
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No one is given an advantage simply based on race or gender in AA. However, historically, both race and gender have been used as a means to discriminate in the workplace and the educational arena.

No, number 2 says a policy that fosters discrimination. AA prevents it against historically oppressed and marginalized groups.
dis·crim·i·na·tion   /dɪˌskrɪməˈneɪʃən/ Show Spelled
[dih-skrim-uh-ney-shuhn] Show IPA

–noun
1. an act or instance of discriminating.
2. treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit: racial and religious intolerance and discrimination.
3. the power of making fine distinctions; discriminating judgment: She chose the colors with great discrimination.
4. Archaic . something that serves to differentiate.
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Unread 05-26-2011, 09:02 PM   #15
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Affirmative Action is that which makes the Civil Rights Act applicable. They are two very different laws.
The Civil Rights Act wasn't applied before Affirmative Action? interesting
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Unread 05-26-2011, 09:03 PM   #16
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dis·crim·i·na·tion   /dɪˌskrɪməˈneɪʃən/ Show Spelled
[dih-skrim-uh-ney-shuhn] Show IPA

–noun
1. an act or instance of discriminating.
2. treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit: racial and religious intolerance and discrimination.
3. the power of making fine distinctions; discriminating judgment: She chose the colors with great discrimination.
4. Archaic . something that serves to differentiate.
Exactly. And that is what affirmative action prevents. The very acts of discrimination that were tolerated historically, for hundreds of years. You did again. Thank you.

The purpose of affirmative action is to give our nation a way to finally address the systemic exclusion of individuals of talent on the basis of their gender, or race from opportunities to develop, perform, achieve and contribute. Affirmative action is an effort to develop systematic approach to open the doors of education, employment, and business development opportunities to qualified individuals who happen to be members of groups that have experienced long-standing and persistent discrimination.


The AAAA firmly believes that affirmative action is a policy that must be maintained to assure that the progress made by women, ethnic minorities and people with disabilities is preserved. It is a policy that will allow the youth of this country to inherit a future where equality and fairness is a part of being an American.
About the American Association for Affirmative Action
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Unread 05-26-2011, 09:09 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jillio View Post
Not exactly. What AA provides for is that when 2 candidates are equally qualified, one can not be excluded simply because of his race, her gender, or his/her ethnicity. Historically, that is what has happened in the workplace and the educational arena, and that is what AA intends to prevent.

Is part of the intent to correct those past injustices. Absolutely. But it would only be racist to allow those practices to continue. Is part of its intent to promote diversity? Absolutely. Because historically, diversity has been absent in certain areas of society as a direct result of racist and discriminatory practices.
I've actually been turned down several times for a job in the past because I wasn't non-white.
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Unread 05-26-2011, 09:09 PM   #18
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Exactly. And that is what affirmative action prevents. The very acts of discrimination that were tolerated historically, for hundreds of years. You did again. Thank you.

The purpose of affirmative action is to give our nation a way to finally address the systemic exclusion of individuals of talent on the basis of their gender, or race from opportunities to develop, perform, achieve and contribute. Affirmative action is an effort to develop systematic approach to open the doors of education, employment, and business development opportunities to qualified individuals who happen to be members of groups that have experienced long-standing and persistent discrimination.


The AAAA firmly believes that affirmative action is a policy that must be maintained to assure that the progress made by women, ethnic minorities and people with disabilities is preserved. It is a policy that will allow the youth of this country to inherit a future where equality and fairness is a part of being an American.
About the American Association for Affirmative Action
Again the Civil Rights Act and ADA did that..... :shrug:

Oh well. enough said.....Decisions made based on race....are racist and wrong
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Unread 05-26-2011, 09:12 PM   #19
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I've actually been turned down several times for a job in the past because I wasn't non-white.
Are you sure that was the reason, or could it simply have been that a candidate that was hired was more qualified?

But the fact is, that will happen when 2 candidates are equally qualified. Would it be okay to continue to turn down those who have been prevented from even applying in the past simply because they are non-white or non-male? That is what AA seeks to address in part. The discrimination that has occurred for hundreds of years. The number of non-white people being hired now in place of white candidates, given equal qualifications, does not make even a small dent in the number of minorities that have been discriminated against in employment opportunity in the past. The white male candidate has held, and exercised a distinct advantage over minorites for hundreds of years. Can he really stand up now and say..."Hey!! Taking my advantage away is racist!"?
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Unread 05-26-2011, 09:13 PM   #20
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Exactly. And that is what affirmative action prevents. The very acts of discrimination that were tolerated historically, for hundreds of years. You did again. Thank you.

The purpose of affirmative action is to give our nation a way to finally address the systemic exclusion of individuals of talent on the basis of their gender, or race from opportunities to develop, perform, achieve and contribute. Affirmative action is an effort to develop systematic approach to open the doors of education, employment, and business development opportunities to qualified individuals who happen to be members of groups that have experienced long-standing and persistent discrimination.


The AAAA firmly believes that affirmative action is a policy that must be maintained to assure that the progress made by women, ethnic minorities and people with disabilities is preserved. It is a policy that will allow the youth of this country to inherit a future where equality and fairness is a part of being an American.
About the American Association for Affirmative Action
Nice pandering.... And why a link to an AA group rather than a link to AA itself? Propaganda much?

Oh well. No use beating a dead horse.
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Unread 05-26-2011, 09:17 PM   #21
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Are you sure that was the reason, or could it simply have been that a candidate that was hired was more qualified?
Okay...

A student almost done with his information technology degree along with experience in four organizations (executive board positions) compared with students who just like to stand around with their BTE hearing aids hanging from their ears, their shirts half-on, screaming their heads off, not even halfway done with their 2-year degree (during their 4th year), and preferred activity of weed and beer.
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Unread 05-26-2011, 09:17 PM   #22
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Again the Civil Rights Act and ADA did that..... :shrug:

Oh well. enough said.....Decisions made based on race....are racist and wrong
So, you propose that the white male be hired and receive admission to educational institutions based on nothing more than the fact that he is a white male? Now that is racist. And sexist.
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Unread 05-26-2011, 09:18 PM   #23
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I've actually been turned down several times for a job in the past because I wasn't non-white.
then that's illegal. You were turned down due to racial discrimination, not Affirmative Action.
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Unread 05-26-2011, 09:23 PM   #24
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Okay...

A student almost done with his information technology degree along with experience in four organizations (executive board positions) compared with students who just like to stand around with their BTE hearing aids hanging from their ears, their shirts half-on, screaming their heads off, not even halfway done with their 2-year degree (during their 4th year), and preferred activity of weed and beer.
That sounds like a rather biased assessment, no offense intended. I'm sure the resumes didn't read that way. But, if your qualifications were more in line with the job requirements and you were not hired just because you were white, then that is illegal and what AA seeks to prevent.
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Unread 05-26-2011, 09:25 PM   #25
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Nice pandering.... And why a link to an AA group rather than a link to AA itself? Propaganda much?

Oh well. No use beating a dead horse.
Why not link to the Americans for Affirmative Action website? That is AA itself. Would you expect me to link to the White Supremists?

That isn't pandering. I bolded it to show that you are non-supportive of the very laws in place to protect you. AA is not about Black and white, despite some misguided belief that it is.
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Unread 05-26-2011, 09:26 PM   #26
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So, you propose that the white male be hired and receive admission to educational institutions based on nothing more than the fact that he is a white male? Now that is racist. And sexist.
Making stuff up AGAIN I see...... *smh*

Try reading the sentence more carefully...

Quote:
Oh well. enough said.....Decisions made based on race....are racist and wrong
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Unread 05-26-2011, 09:28 PM   #27
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then that's illegal. You were turned down due to racial discrimination, not Affirmative Action.
New Haven Conneticut Firefighters....... Started out as an AA policy. :shrug:
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Unread 05-26-2011, 09:28 PM   #28
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Making stuff up AGAIN I see...... *smh*

Try reading the sentence more carefully...
I asked a question. I made nothing up. That was not a statement. Why are you so defensive and afraid to answer simple questions?
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Unread 05-26-2011, 09:29 PM   #29
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New Haven Conneticut Firefighters....... Started out as an AA policy. :shrug:
That has virtually nothing to do with the situation Vampy was describing and Jiro was responding to. The issue there was if the testing procedures used were biased against minorities. It was decided they were not. So Affirmative Action worked in that case. No one was promoted based on race only, but solely on qualification.
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Unread 05-26-2011, 09:34 PM   #30
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I asked a question. I made nothing up. That was not a statement. Why are you so defensive and afraid to answer simple questions?
And why would ask such a question when quoting a statement that said making a decision based on race is wrong? Perhaps you are having a tough time understanding what you read.
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