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Unread 03-03-2011, 06:18 AM   #1
CCman
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Dish and Closed Captions

I wonder if anyone has had any problems with CC and their Dish satellite receiver, specifically the 722K or other HD/PVR models? The problems we've been seeing are a little unusual, and would only be an issue if one were using the composite video to drive a second TV (or if you simply used composite video instead of HD, which is probably not very common).

There seems to be almost random issues with the captioning timing and formatting. Captions will variously appear delayed, have missing letters, or just be scrambled for periods of time which can vary from hours to days. It can also work fine for those same widely varying periods of time. It seems to be nation-wide. It seems to happen on live or pre-recorded programs equally.

Interestingly enough, if you enable the built-in CC decoder of the satellite receiver itself, (which basically decodes and displays the CC text onto the HDMI video, effectively as open captions), the captions are always correct and time synchronized, whether or not the corresponding composite video output is behaving or not.

I would appreciate any similar reports anyone might have. Again, you probably won't notice this unless you are using a second TV set connected to composite video and/or the RF-modulated output.

Thanks.
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Unread 03-03-2011, 10:18 AM   #2
whatdidyousay!
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I was thinking of getting a Dish ,after reading your thread I am having second thoughts! I notice some shows CC are really delayed , Jay Leno is really bad.
Did you try calling the company you got the Dish from? I bet they'll will tell you it the stations job to fix the CC but this not true! The company has to take care of the CC if they're not working right.
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Unread 03-03-2011, 10:30 AM   #3
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When my SO used to live in a more remote area than he does now, we had problems getting the CC to come on with the Dish. We always had to press any button on the remote, whether it be "volume" or "info" or anything else. It was like pressing that button "triggered" the CC to come on. It was weird that we had to do that. It wasn't the TV because we've since moved to a more populated area and still use the same TV, and we no longer have to trigger the CC to come on. We even still use the same receivers as well (here when you sign a 2-year contract the receivers are yours to take with you) but a new Dish on the roof. By any chance are you in a remote area? I wonder if you have a faulty Dish?
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Unread 03-03-2011, 12:18 PM   #4
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How long you had this dish?

I used to have dish before, for about 10 years until Verizon Fios finally arrived. I used to have lot of problem with picture quality and CC. It turned out that trees are blocking the site between satillite and dish. Since the trees have grown taller and have to move the dish elsewhere. After that was done, the quality improved. Year later, I got FIOS.
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Unread 03-03-2011, 06:14 PM   #5
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Thanks for the comments. And let me emphasize, I'm only talking about the CC on the composite output going to an analog TV as being problematic. Not the captioning you would see on your HDMI TV set, which is being decoded by the dish receiver.

We did suspect for some time that it might be signal related, as in the above comments about trees. However, when these units are acting up, the problem happens not only on over-the-air programming, but also shows which you playback from the PVR disc drive. That can't possibly be signal related, or so it would seem.
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Unread 03-03-2011, 07:12 PM   #6
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I have been DirecTV customer for about 10 years. Do I have issue with CC? Here is the answer, it is TV itself! I generally don't have problem with CC for 10 years. I discovered when I bought 55 inch Vizio TV and the caption were screwed up BIG time, and I had both TV connected together to see if caption would show up on other TV. True business! 55 inch Vizio not always show caption at same time other tv which was 23 inch shows caption flawless. I was like WTF? So I took 55 inch back and bought another 55 inch Samsung and the caption even with same connection as 55 inch Vizio were CHAMP!

I love my 55 inch Samsung TV!
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Unread 03-03-2011, 10:54 PM   #7
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i wait for tivo dish device come soon
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Unread 03-04-2011, 12:00 PM   #8
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if you got HDTV to DirecTV receiver or DirecTV HD DVR receiver via HDMI but you need to turn on CC on your DirecTV or HD DVR receiver. If you have DishNetwork HDTV receiver or DishNetwork HD DVR receiver then you need to turn on CC from your receiver


if you have HD cable converter or HD DVR cable converter from your cable company, you can turn on CC from your receiver.

if you hook up your HDTV to your receiver when your TV has built in closed caption itself. it will not function via HDMI.

if you have an analog tv with directv/dish network/ cable company converter, you can use turn on CC on your TV itself via coax or audio/video input. if you have old TV without closed caption you can still have Telecaption decoder connected.

Some Cable company give you Digital Transport Adapter "DTA" for free. if your local cable company shut down Analog signal via cable. They give you more digital channels "All Digital cable signal" please see your DTA user manual book how to set up closed captioned.
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Unread 03-04-2011, 03:57 PM   #9
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coolguy, I think you misunderstood my question, that is, I'm asking if anyone has had problems with the captioning coming from the COMPOSITE video output from certain Dish receivers. I'm well aware of the various issues using HDMI connections and captioning (I'm design engineer for an HDMI closed caption display box). But thanks for reminding me about the fact that some installations they can cut off the analog output - I had heard that before and forgotten.

However, in these many cases that I'm hearing from our customers, the analog output is clearly working, just that the captions are problematic. We're working with Dish to try to resolve it, but I was just wondering if anyone in the deaf community had encountered this problem. As I mentioned, it would only be an issue if you were using a second (analog) TV set, or for some reason owned a HD receiver but were only using the composite video output.

Anyway, thanks for the information!
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Unread 03-04-2011, 04:04 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whatdidyousay! View Post
I was thinking of getting a Dish ,after reading your thread I am having second thoughts! I notice some shows CC are really delayed , Jay Leno is really bad.
Did you try calling the company you got the Dish from? I bet they'll will tell you it the stations job to fix the CC but this not true! The company has to take care of the CC if they're not working right.
whatdidyousay: we also have noticed some captioning delays with the NBC network, now that you mentioned it. It doesn't seem to be related to Dish. Even when the receiver is "behaving" and line 21 captions are otherwise perfect, they still seem to be delayed on NBC programming. We even confirmed this by tuning to the same NBC program on another source (I think it was the ATT U-verse), and the captions were also delayed there. Our conclusion was that NBC was having some CC problems, and that it was not an issue with the Dish receiver.
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Unread 04-04-2011, 11:21 PM   #11
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I have EXACTLY the same issue you do with the captions on dish network.

This whole thing started when we upgraded to high def from standard def.
The new high def reciever/dvr combo is a 722.

The TV1 which uses the HDMI cable works fine.

The TV2 is an HD TV but uses the standard def coax output of the receiver/dvr has tons of problems.
The biggest issue is they are delayed by say 5 or 10 seconds.

The only solution I have found is to reset the receiver/dvr and sometimes it will work
for a while. A while is a few hours to a day. Sometimes it does nothing.

This happens even on watching taped shows.

So I get ahold of Dish and they told me its a TV problem because the coax output does not "change" the signal then it must be a TV problem.

The thing is.... we used this SAME tv with the previous standard def DVR with no problems.

This is driving me NUTS, completely totally NUTS.

I am at the point where I am going to cancel the contract but I need to pay a penalty and how do I know that this wont happen with another company?

Wanted you to know you are not alone in this.
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Unread 05-22-2011, 03:33 PM   #12
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Dish and CC

CCman, I just saw your post from a couple months ago. I'm having the same problem you describe, however I'm not sure what you mean by "composite".

I have a 322 Dish reciever, run thru a dvr/video combo to a HD TV (new). I've been accessing CC via my TV; don't see any way to do it via the Dish reciever.

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Unread 05-22-2011, 04:58 PM   #13
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kawika38: first, "composite" is short-hand for "composite video", which is the technical term used to describe the standard analog video. You will probably recognize it as the cable with yellow-colored RCA- or phono- jacks on each end. Frequenly it is found in a three-cable bundle carring composite video (yellow) and two audio cables for stereo (red and white).

If you're "accessing" CC at your TV set, then you must be using composite video, since the CC information isn't transmitted over the HDMI interface. By "accessing", I understand you to mean you use your TV to control the captions on or off, change the captioning stream (CC1, CC2, ...) and so-on. You would use this connection typically if you don't have an HDMI TV set, or as user drillman pointed out, you might be using TV2 output on your Dish box.

If you are using a digital HDMI-connected TV, you CAN see closed captioning, but you will be controlling it via the Dish receiver, NOT your TV set. What happens in this case is that a CC decoder function located inside the Dish box decodes and displays the captions on the video signal, and transmits them to your TV set as part of the picture, or what would technically be described as "open captions".

A good way to visualize this is to imagine a theoretical VCR that can record anything, composite video or HDMI. If you use this imaginary VCR to record the composite video signal, and later play it back on an imaginary video monitor (with no CC decoder), you won't see any captions. But if you do the same thing with your HDMI signal, on playback you WILL see the captions.

Hope this makes it a little clearer.

Back to the original point, it seems that in the newer Dish set top boxes, the internal CC decoder function works properly - that is, there are no delays or caption scrambling. However, on the composite output, those problem are seen often and in a non-understandable way. It seems to be temporarily solved or improved by resetting the box, but not always.

drillman: regarding your reported comment from Dish that "the coax output doesn't change the signal", well, that's partially true but doesn't address the point. The true part is that the video signal (with line 21 CC embedded) isn't different between the coax and the baseband yellow composite video output, except that the signal has been modulated to a certain RF frequency for example channel 3 or 4. It is true that nothing is changed to make these outputs, but that's because there is nothing TO change - these outputs are CREATED by the set top box. The signals the set top box receives are, once demodulated, digital video streams, and the CC data is also embedded as auxiliary data within the video stream. The set top box has to convert this digital data into composite video, and also add the CC signal to line 21 of the composite video.

So in the strictess sense, indeed they aren't changing anything, but that's misleading. They are creating the composite video signal, and somewhere in that creation process the line 21 CC information is often being corrupted.

It is interesting to note that the internal CC decoder within the box appears to work correctly.

Two disclaimers: Though I strongly doubt it, they might be transmitting some video channels in a completely analog manner (much like an old analog cable system). In that situation, they would indeed be just passing the video directly to the output, without changing anything. In this example situation, it would truly be very difficult to mess up the CC signal if you wanted to. But, I really don't think they transmit any channels completely analog such as this.

I haven't followed this problem closely in the past month or so. Been stalled waiting for some internal processes within Dish before we can proceed further. Since I haven't checked recently, it is possible they've solved these issues recently and I'm not aware of it.
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Unread 05-30-2011, 06:39 PM   #14
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CCman, no the problem has not gone away for me. I am currently looking into canceling my dish network service over this. Problem is I need to find an alternative. Probably the best thing to do is get a service with an HD receiver for each TV and be done with this problem.

You explanation makes perfect sense to me, I was unaware that the SD or composite video, has the CCs added to line 21 at the 722 set top box. It appears to me that there is a "sync" problem of some sort going on here.

Not much more to say except that dish is going to lose a customer over this and from the responses I have gotten from them, they could not care less.
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Unread 05-30-2011, 08:28 PM   #15
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CCman, I wonder if you could answer a similar question for me. In our house in Virginia, just outside of Washington, D.C., we have two TVs, one a fairly new (well, 6 years old) HDTV, and the other one upstairs in the bedroom is about 10 or 11 years old, non-HDTV. We get our TV over the air (with one great big honkin' antenna in the attic) and get all the usual D.C. and Baltimore stations.

Sometimes the CCs are totally messed up on one TV, but not the other, when they are tuned to the same channel. Sometimes they are messed up on the Washington channel, but not the Baltimore affiliate of the same network. For instance, "House" on Fox, from D.C. - no captions. Tune it to the Fox affiliate in Baltimore, it's fine.

Same for Jay Leno on NBC: Washington affiliate might or might not have working captions; Baltimore affiliate is always good.

We are a lot closer to D.C. than we are to Baltimore, so I don't know why this happens, but it does.

Any clues?
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Unread 05-31-2011, 05:09 PM   #16
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Beachgirl:

Well, I can think of some possibilities, but I'm puzzled how you are using your older non-HDTV set using over-the-air signals. I was under the impression that all analog broadcasting has stopped. Perhaps you have a converter box on that set?

One possibility is that one or both of the local stations might unintentionally disturb the captioning information from time to time. I don't have a good feeling for how common this is, but from what I've heard it does happen from time to time. Do you happen to notice if the bad captions happen more on prerecorded programs or live programs?

Another thing which could be happening is a bit complicated to explain. But in digital TV broadcasting, the signal carries two styles of closed captioning signal. One of these is a new, modern style of captioning (officially called EIA-708). The other is the older original closed captioning style (officially called EIA-608). I suspect if your older TV is using an external convertor box, that box will almost certainly be using the older style captions to pass along on your TV. Do you happen to know where the closed caption decoding is being done on this old TV? It could be in the TV itself, or the convertor box might be doing it. You new TV I'm less sure - will it be decoding the new or old style? Or maybe you can even specify which to use, deep down in the user setup menus? What I'm getting at is that you might be viewing two completely different captioning streams on your two TV sets - perhaps seeing the old style EIA-608 on your old TV, and seeing the new style EIA-708 on your new TV. That really shouldn't be a problem, but knowing about this might help you to isolate the problem.

Another thing I wonder about is the signal strength. I wonder if one city's station is significantly weaker than the other? Although unlike analog, with the digital broadcasts is often an all-or-nothing situation. With the digital broadcasts, if you're seeing a picture, you're probably getting all the signal.

Another possibility might be an slight problem in one of your TV's CC decoders, although this seems unlikely. Those should be fairly well tested, although if I had to suspect something, I would wonder about the convertor box on your old TV. This is a kind of product which was made in fairly large quantities, fairly quickly, and for a very time-limited market. In this situation, it wouldn't surprise me if some convertors were sold with less-than-100% tested closed caption functionality.

Finally, regarding NBC, as I've mentioned before I've heard several reports that their captioning slightly lags the audio network-wide. Not scrambled, just delayed. If this is one of the problems you're seeing with NBC, it probably can't be solved at the local station level.

Well, I'm sorry I couldn't give a complete solution. But this might help point you in the right direction. If it does turn out to be something with one or more local stations, I understand they will usually try to fix captioning issues when reported. The FCC has a process for reporting these errors to the stations.

p.s. Washington DC? Baltimore? These locations don't seem appropriate for a beach girl.... 8-)
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Unread 05-31-2011, 05:41 PM   #17
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Quote:
Perhaps you have a converter box on that set?

Yes, we do. We have a cheapie converter box on that set (one of the sets that was paid for by the gov't voucher), and a more expensive HDTV converter box for the downstairs set that we bought at the time of buying the TV, which was "HDTV-ready" at the time, needing the converter box to work.

Quote:
Do you happen to notice if the bad captions happen more on prerecorded programs or live programs?

More so on prerecorded programs. News programs seem ok. I really don't pay much attention to which news channel we watch; sometimes one, sometimes another. I don't recall many caption problems on live programs.

Quote:
Do you happen to know where the closed caption decoding is being done on this old TV? It could be in the TV itself, or the convertor box might be doing it.
I would guess it's in the converter box. The remote control for the box is the only one that does anything to the TV anymore.

Quote:
You new TV I'm less sure - will it be decoding the new or old style? Or maybe you can even specify which to use, deep down in the user setup menus?
Haven't a clue! I *think* it's all in the box, but I'm not 100% positive.

Quote:
Finally, regarding NBC, as I've mentioned before I've heard several reports that their captioning slightly lags the audio network-wide. Not scrambled, just delayed.
No, we don't have a problem with it being delayed that I recall. The problems are that it's (sometimes) either missing entirely or else scrambled.

Quote:
If it does turn out to be something with one or more local stations, I understand they will usually try to fix captioning issues when reported.
I reported it to one of the problem stations a while ago, and did not get a very satisfactory answer.

Quote:
p.s. Washington DC? Baltimore? These locations don't seem appropriate for a beach girl.... 8-)
Can't dispute that! However, I grew up on the beach in Michigan, and now we have a summer home on the beach in North Carolina. I'm typing to you from NC even as we, uh, type, right this minute. I can see a tiny bit of the ocean from my window right here, have a better ocean view from my top deck. We are about 1/4 mile from the ocean as the seagull flies. Maybe one day we'll make it permanent, but for the time being, we split our time between Virginia and the Outer Banks. It's a nice life. ;-)

Here at the beach house, we get cable. And we do have another weird problem: we pay an additional charge for the HDTV channels. However, the sound on those channels is notably quieter than on the "regular" channels, and sometimes the captions are missing from those, even when they come in fine on the "regular" ones. Does THAT make sense? It's irritating enough that we're thinking of dropping the "HDTV" option. It's only a few bucks a month more, but I don't think we're getting our money's worth from it, considering.
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Unread 05-31-2011, 05:48 PM   #18
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You can check where the decoding is being done by operating the TV menus (if you can find the remote control anymore!). From the TV, turn captions on and off, and see if it has any effect. If not, then the captioning is being decoded at the convertor box not the TV.

I don't know how big a deal it would be, but one interesting experiment would be to swap the convertor boxes for some time, and see if that gives you any further clues.
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Unread 05-31-2011, 05:53 PM   #19
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Thanks much for the explanation. I'll give it a try when we're back there.
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