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Unread 01-29-2008, 08:13 PM   #1
jackiesolorzano
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Respect for all

I have a question for all. If I can respect people's choices to just use ASL then why can't people respect my choices to raise my deaf teenagers orally and have them implanted. I do not understand why some people think they have the right to tell me that it was not my right to implant my children. What is happening is that a lot of you are scaring new parents away from seeking information from people in the Deaf culture. Why can we not just agree to disagree and treat each other with respect. Why can't people just admit that cochlear implants can be a very valuable tool.
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Unread 01-29-2008, 08:42 PM   #2
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For me, it is not the implants. It is the attitude of the parents saying that their child doesn't need sign language or that they want their children around other oral deaf or hearing only.

U don't say that but others have said that. It is like automatic discriminations against those who have no oral skills and reply on sign language. What is wrong with having their children learn sign language and interact with the signing Deaf community?

Because of that attitude especially out there away from AD (yes, it is rampant), it makes many of us feel that these people do not respect nor value us so why should we respect and value them?

However those who get their children implanted but want their child involved in both communities along with ASL and spoken language, that's great!

To those who say, ' My child doesn't need ASL or doesn't need to befriend with other deaf children especially those who sign" is really kinda like a put down to many of us.

If they say.."I wud like to but there is nobody nearby" then that's understandable.

Many of us deaf people grew up in an educational environment that was very restrivtive for us and we don't want other deaf children to go thru that but when we share our experiences and get disregarded, it brings up the old negative feelings about hearing "experts" forcing us to be "normal" which left many of us growing up feeling isolated and left out. That is no fun.

I really am against the oral-only philosophy cuz I can't understand why anyone wud put a child in an educational environment in which he/she is forced to use their weakness sense for communication, language development, and learning. It is just too risky and I don't believe in it.

If u and others don't like it, that's fine cuz u and others don't have to deal with trying to teach children so language delayed cuz of the oral-only philosophy. I do so iam sick of it.
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Unread 01-29-2008, 08:48 PM   #3
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For me, it is not the implants. It is the attitude of the parents saying that their child doesn't need sign language or that they want their children around other oral deaf or hearing only.

U don't say that but others have said that. It is like automatic discriminations against those who have no oral skills and reply on sign language. What is wrong with having their children learn sign language and interact with the signing Deaf community?

Because of that attitude especially out there away from AD (yes, it is rampant), it makes many of us feel that these people do not respect nor value us so why should we respect and value them?

However those who get their children implanted but want their child involved in both communities along with ASL and spoken language, that's great!

To those who say, ' My child doesn't need ASL or doesn't need to befriend with other deaf children especially those who sign" is really kinda like a put down to many of us.

If they say.."I wud like to but there is nobody nearby" then that's understandable.

Many of us deaf people grew up in an educational environment that was very restrivtive for us and we don't want other deaf children to go thru that but when we share our experiences and get disregarded, it brings up the old negative feelings about hearing "experts" forcing us to be "normal" which left many of us growing up feeling isolated and left out. That is no fun.

I really am against the oral-only philosophy cuz I can't understand why anyone wud put a child in an educational environment in which he/she is forced to use their weakness sense for communication, language development, and learning. It is just too risky and I don't believe in it.

If u and others don't like it, that's fine cuz u and others don't have to deal with trying to teach children so language delayed cuz of the oral-only philosophy. I do so iam sick of it.
I don't know of anyone here that chooses to use "just ASL only". Given the fact that even the strongest ASL users are typing written words, it would seem to be that they are using ASL and English.
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Unread 01-29-2008, 08:53 PM   #4
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For me, it is not the implants. It is the attitude of the parents saying that their child doesn't need sign language or that they want their children around other oral deaf or hearing only.

U don't say that but others have said that. It is like automatic discriminations against those who have no oral skills and reply on sign language. What is wrong with having their children learn sign language and interact with the signing Deaf community?

Because of that attitude especially out there away from AD (yes, it is rampant), it makes many of us feel that these people do not respect nor value us so why should we respect and value them?

However those who get their children implanted but want their child involved in both communities along with ASL and spoken language, that's great!

To those who say, ' My child doesn't need ASL or doesn't need to befriend with other deaf children especially those who sign" is really kinda like a put down to many of us.

If they say.."I wud like to but there is nobody nearby" then that's understandable.

Many of us deaf people grew up in an educational environment that was very restrivtive for us and we don't want other deaf children to go thru that but when we share our experiences and get disregarded, it brings up the old negative feelings about hearing "experts" forcing us to be "normal" which left many of us growing up feeling isolated and left out. That is no fun.

I really am against the oral-only philosophy cuz I can't understand why anyone wud put a child in an educational environment in which he/she is forced to use their weakness sense for communication, language development, and learning. It is just too risky and I don't believe in it.

If u and others don't like it, that's fine cuz u and others don't have to deal with trying to teach children so language delayed cuz of the oral-only philosophy. I do so iam sick of it.
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Unread 01-29-2008, 09:11 PM   #5
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Sorry for all the spelling errors and double post. I am using my pager with the tiny keyboards.


One last thing I want to say is that I am never against anyone for implanting their children.

That family I just met is considering getting their daughter implanted but that won't stop me from being their friend. They value the importance of the Deaf community and ASL as well as spoken language for their daughter. That to me is proving all opportunities and drastically decreases the risk of language delays.

For others who r against CIs, I can't speak for them but I can undy their point of view as well. Doesn't mean I adopted their views but I can understand.

If parents come here saying that they don't want their children to learn any sign language, then they will expect some strong reactions from some people since many of us value sign language just as much as they value oral language. It is common sense.

Like people going into a Spanish forum and saying that they don't have a need for Spanish or say degrading things about Spanish. People will react to that, of course.
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Unread 01-29-2008, 09:47 PM   #6
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For me, it is not the implants. It is the attitude of the parents saying that their child doesn't need sign language or that they want their children around other oral deaf or hearing only.

BUT MY CHILDREN DO NOT NEED SIGN LANGUAGE SO WHY IS THIS YOUR CONCERN. SO WHY ARE YOU AGAINST THE FACT THAT MY CHILDREN DO NOT NEED SIGN LANGUAGE. ANYWAY MY CHILDREN DO KNOW SIGN LANGUAGE, WELL MY SON THINKS HE DOES AND MY DAUGHTER IS PRETTY GOOD AT IT SOCIALLY. I GIVE MY CHILDREN AS MANY CHANCES TO BE AROUND DEAF CHILDREN BOTH ORAL DEAF AND DEAF DEAF CHILDREN. BUT I AM VERY CAREFUL TO MAKE SURE THAT THE DEAF CHILDREN ARE ACCEPTING OF MY ORAL DEAF CHILDREN. AS LONG AS I AM ABLE TO INFLUENCE MY CHILDREN I WILL NOT ENCOURAGE THEM TO BE AROUND PEOPLE THAT I HAVE COME ACROSS HERE AT THIS SITE THAT ARE SO NEGATIVE AND AGAINST ORAL DEAF.

U don't say that but others have said that. It is like automatic discriminations against those who have no oral skills and reply on sign language. What is wrong with having their children learn sign language and interact with the signing Deaf community?

DO YOU SEE THAT YOU ALSO DISCRIMINATE AGAINST RAISING DEAF CHILDREN ORALLY. YOU ARE UPSET THAT PEOPLE DISCRIMINATE AGAINST DEAF PEOPLE AND I WOULD BE TOO BUT YOU ARE DOING THE SAME THING. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH LEARNING SIGN LANGUAGE. IF A PARENT DESIRED RESULT IS FOR THEIR CHILD TO BE ORAL THEN I DO AND WILL ALWAYS ENCOURAGE ORAL LANGUAGE FIRST AND ONCE THEY HAVE A SOLID FOUNDATION THEN INTROUDCE SIGN LANGUAGE JUST LIKE I DID WITH MY CHILDREN. NOW IF A PARENT'S DESIRED RESULT IS SOMETHING ELSE THAT I AM NOT AN EXPERT AT THEN I WILL REFERRED THEM TO OTHER SOURCES. I DO ALWAYS TELL PARENTS ABOUT ALL THEIR CHOICES AND I ALWAYS RECOMMEND PARENTS TO READ CHOICES IN DEAFNESS. ALTHOUGH I DO NOT KNOW HOW TO EDUCATE A DEAF CHILD IN SIGN LANGUAGE OR CUED SPEECH, I KNOW WHERE TO REFERRED THEM TO.

Because of that attitude especially out there away from AD (yes, it is rampant), it makes many of us feel that these people do not respect nor value us so why should we respect and value them?

I DO RESPECT YOU AND OTHERS THAT HAVE CHOSEN THEIR MODE OF COMMUNICATION. JUST BECAUSE I CHOOSE ORAL FOR MY CHILDREN DOES NOT MEAN THAT I DO NOT RESPECT OTHERS WHO HAVE CHOSEN OTHER ROUTES. I ALSO DO NOT THINK THAT ORAL IS BETTER THEN ASL OR SIGN LANGUAGE. ORAL WAS MY CHOICE AND IT WORKED WELL FOR MY FAMILY BUT I KNOW IT IS NOT EVERYONE NOR SHOULD IT BE. I DO SEEK DEAF ADULTS BOTH ORAL AND SIGNERS AS ROLE MODELS FOR MY CHILDREN. I DO ONLY SEEK OPEN MINDED DEAF ADULTS. I AM VERY LUCKY BECAUSE OF MY LINE OF WORK THAT I HAVE ENCOUNTERED OPEN MINDED DEAF ADULTS FROM BOTH SIDES.

However those who get their children implanted but want their child involved in both communities along with ASL and spoken language, that's great!

SINCE I WORK WITH CHILDREN THAT HAVE COCHLEAR IMPLANTS I DO TELL PARENTS THAT WE NEED TO FOCUS ON ONE THING FIRST. SINCE I HAVE WORKED WITH SO MANY SUCCESSFUL COCHLEAR IMPLANT USERS AND HAVE SEEN WHAT WORKS, I WILL NOW AND CONTINUE TO TELL PARENTS WHAT IS THEIR DESIRED RESULT AND LET'S WORK ON THAT. IF A PARENT WANTS THEIR CHILD TO DEVELOP ORAL LANGUAGE THEN THAT IS WHAT I FOCUS ON. IF THEY WANT TO TRY AND DO BOTH AT THE SAME TIME THEN I REFER THEM TO RIVERSIDE. I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY IMPLANT USERS THAT HAVE BEEN EXPOSED TO BOTH ORAL LANGUAGE AND SIGN LANGUAGE AT AN EARLY AGE AND BE ABLE TO DO BOTH. I HAVE SEEN SEVERAL KIDS LIKE MINE THAT WERE ONLY EXPOSED TO ORAL LANGUAGE IN THEIR EARLY YEARS AND THEN LATER ON AFTER THE AGE OF 10 EXPOSED TO SIGN LANGUAGE BE ABLE TO COMMUNBICATE IN BOTH LANGUAGES.

To those who say, ' My child doesn't need ASL or doesn't need to befriend with other deaf children especially those who sign" is really kinda like a put down to many of us.

MY CHILDREN DO NOT NEED ASL TO LEAD THEIR LIVES. I AM GLAD THAT THEY DO KNOW BOTH NOW. I AM GLAD THAT THEY HAVE FRIENDS THAT ARE ORAL, ORAL AND SIGNERS, AND ONLY SIGNERS. I LIKE THEIR FRIENDS THEY ARE VERY ACCEPTING OF MY CHILDREN. I HAVE HAD A COUPLE OF THEIR ONLY SIGNING FRIENDS TELL ME THAT THEY WISHED THEY COULD TALK.

If they say.."I wud like to but there is nobody nearby" then that's understandable.

WE ARE LUCKY THAT WE LIVE IN AN AREA THAT HAS ORAL DEAF AND A LARGE Deaf COMMUNITY. SO WHATEVER MY CHILDREN WANT THEY CAN
HAVE. BUT IT IS OUR CHOICE WHAT WE EXPOSE THEM TOO. NOW IT IS REALLY NOT MY CHOICE IT IS MY CHILDREN'S CHOICE. SO IF THEY JUST WANT TO SOCIALLY WITH ORAL DEAF, HEARING, OR SIGNERS IT IS THEIR CHOICE NOT MINE NOT YOURS.

Many of us deaf people grew up in an educational environment that was very restrivtive for us and we don't want other deaf children to go thru that but when we share our experiences and get disregarded, it brings up the old negative feelings about hearing "experts" forcing us to be "normal" which left many of us growing up feeling isolated and left out. That is no fun.

AND I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING. I HAVE READ AND UNDERSTAND HOW THE ORAL DEAF COMMUNITY WAS BEFORE 20, 30 YEARS AGO. I HAVE READ ABOUT THE HAND SLAPPING AND OTHER HORRIBLE THINGS. BUT TIMES HAVE CHANGED AND PEOPLE HAVE TOO. IT IS SAD THAT YOU ARE JUDGING US NEW ORAL DEAF PARENTS FROM MISTAKES MADE IN YOUR PAST. I HAVE LISTEN TO YOU AND MANY PEOPLE IN THE PAST FROM BOTH SIDES AND I MADE MY CHOICES FOR MY CHILDREN AND MY STUDENTS FROM ALL THE INFORMATION I HAVE. I HAVE LISTEN TO YOU, HAVE YOU REALLY LISTEN TO WHAT I AND OTHER PARENTS HAVE TO SAY.

I really am against the oral-only philosophy cuz I can't understand why anyone wud put a child in an educational environment in which he/she is forced to use their weakness sense for communication, language development, and learning. It is just too risky and I don't believe in it.

YOU ARE RIGHT MY CHILDREN HEARING IS THEIR WEAK SENSE AND AS HUMANS WHEN WE HAVE A WEAKNESS WE NEED TO WORK ON IT TO GET IT STRONGER AND THAT IS WHAT I HAVE DONE. I CAN SEE AND UNDERSTAND WHY YOU THINK IT IS RISKY BUT IF PARENTS KNOW WHAT THEY NEED TO DO AND THEY CAN DO IT AND ARE WILLING THEN IT IS THEIR CHOICE.

If u and others don't like it, that's fine cuz u and others don't have to deal with trying to teach children so language delayed cuz of the oral-only philosophy. I do so iam sick of it.
JUST AS YOU DON'T CARE IF WE LIKE IT, WE PARENTS ALSO DON'T CARE IF YOU DEAF PEOPLE LIKE IT AND YOU KNOW WHAT THE KIDS THAT YOU SO MUCH CARE ABOUT ARE THE ONES THAT ARE AT RISKS BECAUSE AS LONG AS PEOPLE IN THE DEAF COMMUNITY THINK LIKE YOU DO WE PARENTS OF ORAL DEAF CHILDREN WILL NOT EXPOSE OUR CHILDREN TO PEOPLE LIKE YOU.
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Unread 01-29-2008, 10:00 PM   #7
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I have a question for all. If I can respect people's choices to just use ASL then why can't people respect my choices to raise my deaf teenagers orally and have them implanted. I do not understand why some people think they have the right to tell me that it was not my right to implant my children. What is happening is that a lot of you are scaring new parents away from seeking information from people in the Deaf culture. Why can we not just agree to disagree and treat each other with respect. Why can't people just admit that cochlear implants can be a very valuable tool.
Hello Jackie, good to see you again.

I do see cochlear implants as a valuable tool for most deaf people/children and I also agree with you that we can just agree to disagree knowing not all of us will raise our children the same way because every deaf child is different and I've mentioned before that oral methods may work on some but not all and sometimes we do have to take a step back, take a deep breath, and think without criticism or judge other parent's decisions. While I agree that you really have to look at each child differently and see what works best for that particular child.

Please allow me to say this, sometimes I wish to see parents provide all tools for their deaf children because I believe ASL is a beautiful language for deaf people as well as hearing people to use for communication but that's just my opinion here.
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Unread 01-29-2008, 10:11 PM   #8
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Hello Jackie, good to see you again.

I do see cochlear implants as a valuable tool for most deaf people/children and I also agree with you that we can just agree to disagree knowing not all of us will raise our children the same way because every deaf child is different and I've mentioned before that oral methods may work on some but not all and sometimes we do have to take a step back, take a deep breath, and think without criticism or judge other parent's decisions. While I agree that you really have to look at each child differently and see what works best for that particular child.

Please allow me to say this, sometimes I wish to see parents provide all tools for their deaf children because I believe ASL is a beautiful language for deaf people as well as hearing people to use for communication but that's just my opinion here.

Angel I agree that ASL is a beautiful language. And I glad that my daughter has a pretty good command on it. And I am even more happier that the oral method did work well with them but I was ready to switch communication methods in the beginning if that is what we needed to do then. And now I even more pleased that my children are oral and now they can learn ASL if they want and when they want.
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Unread 01-29-2008, 10:16 PM   #9
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JUST AS YOU DON'T CARE IF WE LIKE IT, WE PARENTS ALSO DON'T CARE IF YOU DEAF PEOPLE LIKE IT AND YOU KNOW WHAT THE KIDS THAT YOU SO MUCH CARE ABOUT ARE THE ONES THAT ARE AT RISKS BECAUSE AS LONG AS PEOPLE IN THE DEAF COMMUNITY THINK LIKE YOU DO WE PARENTS OF ORAL DEAF CHILDREN WILL NOT EXPOSE OUR CHILDREN TO PEOPLE LIKE YOU.


Why are you yelling?

And isn't the bolded statement above a bit judgemental for someone who claims to respect others and their decisions?
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Unread 01-29-2008, 10:25 PM   #10
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Please I apologize if you thought I was yelling. I am really sorry, since I was typing in between what Shel was typing, I wanted to highlight everything I said so that is the only reason what I wrote was in caps. If you thought I was yelling, I really wasn't.

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[/B]

Why are you yelling?

And isn't the bolded statement above a bit judgemental for someone who claims to respect others and their decisions?
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Unread 01-29-2008, 10:30 PM   #11
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Please I apologize if you thought I was yelling. I am really sorry, since I was typing in between what Shel was typing, I wanted to highlight everything I said so that is the only reason what I wrote was in caps. If you thought I was yelling, I really wasn't.
Apology accepted. Yes, typing in all caps is considered to be yelling. That is why we usually use a different color font or italics when we reply within post.
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Unread 01-29-2008, 10:46 PM   #12
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For me, it is not the implants. It is the attitude of the parents saying that their child doesn't need sign language or that they want their children around other oral deaf or hearing only.

U don't say that but others have said that. It is like automatic discriminations against those who have no oral skills and reply on sign language. What is wrong with having their children learn sign language and interact with the signing Deaf community?

Because of that attitude especially out there away from AD (yes, it is rampant), it makes many of us feel that these people do not respect nor value us so why should we respect and value them?

However those who get their children implanted but want their child involved in both communities along with ASL and spoken language, that's great!

To those who say, ' My child doesn't need ASL or doesn't need to befriend with other deaf children especially those who sign" is really kinda like a put down to many of us.

If they say.."I wud like to but there is nobody nearby" then that's understandable.

Many of us deaf people grew up in an educational environment that was very restrivtive for us and we don't want other deaf children to go thru that but when we share our experiences and get disregarded, it brings up the old negative feelings about hearing "experts" forcing us to be "normal" which left many of us growing up feeling isolated and left out. That is no fun.

I really am against the oral-only philosophy cuz I can't understand why anyone wud put a child in an educational environment in which he/she is forced to use their weakness sense for communication, language development, and learning. It is just too risky and I don't believe in it.

If u and others don't like it, that's fine cuz u and others don't have to deal with trying to teach children so language delayed cuz of the oral-only philosophy. I do so iam sick of it.


My opinion it's two way street but often it seems that the deaf's view are ignored nor respected. Jackie, you did what you believed were right for your kids and that's fine.
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Unread 01-30-2008, 12:06 AM   #13
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Quote:
JUST AS YOU DON'T CARE IF WE LIKE IT, WE PARENTS ALSO DON'T CARE IF YOU DEAF PEOPLE LIKE IT AND YOU KNOW WHAT THE KIDS THAT YOU SO MUCH CARE ABOUT ARE THE ONES THAT ARE AT RISKS BECAUSE AS LONG AS PEOPLE IN THE DEAF COMMUNITY THINK LIKE YOU DO WE PARENTS OF ORAL DEAF CHILDREN WILL NOT EXPOSE OUR CHILDREN TO PEOPLE LIKE YOU.
Ummm Jackie, many of US were oral only. NOBODY HERE is one of those Deaf extremists who is advocating "only Sign" for ALL dhh kids.
Lots of us raised oral kids are glad we have oral abilty. We're just wondering why oral only runs on a really kind of audist platform, where Sign or anything else like that is an afterthought.
It's so ironic.................AG Bell etc implies that there's "freedom in listening and talking" BUT, on the other hand oral only kids can't function without hearing aids and CIs.
Many of us wouldn't appear to be anti-oral if more pro oralonliers were working with a full toolbox approach. Instead they are working with the approach that oral is best, and anything else is "special needs" or a "inhibitory crutch"
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Unread 01-30-2008, 12:28 AM   #14
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Oh and Jackie,
I respect people's decisions to only use speech. But the thing is, too often a person's decision to only use speech is the result of them only having speech skills. They don't have the abilty to make that decision based on a full toolbox philosophy. For example my friend Katie's daughter Remy started out with both speech and sign. She even went to Kansas School for the Deaf for preschool and kindergarten. She was exposed to Sign as a viable option/valuable tool not nessarily just as an "afterthought" in case speech fails, or as a "special needs" option. She decided on HER OWN that she wanted to speak. That's basicly what our philosophy is regarding oralism...............that the dhh kid themselves should have the abilty on their OWN to decide what tools they want to use! Maybe if that happened then a lot more, then a lot of the disagreements and feeling "discriminated" against would VANISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Unread 01-30-2008, 01:16 AM   #15
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Going without a full toolbox is just like going to Las Vegas 98% of the time, lol....
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Unread 01-30-2008, 03:15 AM   #16
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I have a question for all. If I can respect people's choices to just use ASL then why can't people respect my choices to raise my deaf teenagers orally and have them implanted. I do not understand why some people think they have the right to tell me that it was not my right to implant my children. What is happening is that a lot of you are scaring new parents away from seeking information from people in the Deaf culture. Why can we not just agree to disagree and treat each other with respect. Why can't people just admit that cochlear implants can be a very valuable tool.
Maybe the better question is do the hearing people in general really respect the Deafs' choices?? It is absolutely unfair for the government to allow the hearing people to decide on the education, jobs and even the reproductive rights for the Deaf population. Even they allowed parents to have CI put in the infant's head (scalpel to the head) so the kid can be more like hearing just like the parents. The government didn't stop it after the first death from CI-related complication(s). When those two American lesbians want a deaf child, one of them got pregnant the old fashioned way (where is the scalpel???) when they found a guy with 5 generations of deafness. Guess what? The British is trying to chip away the deaf population's reproductive rights with the Clause 14. I won't be surprised if the USA and other countries tried to emulate that. The Chinese government already required the Deaf Chinese to get the proof of sterilization before he/she can get married.

The fact is that the hearing people have too much power over the deaf popluation. I believe that it is time for the Deaf Education to be under all-Deaf school board, not all-hearing school board. The hearing people had over 100 years of oralism and doesn't have much to show for it. The fourth grade reading skill of the average Deaf people? That is the proof of failure. The hearing people aren't going to relinquish their control of Deaf Education over to the Deaf people. The hearing people still don't listen to the Deaf people on the education for the Deaf. They listened to Stokoe (hearing) when he announced that ASL is a language in its own right. To me, TC is a long hesitant before the switch over to Bi-Bi. According to this link- (Sign language may help deaf children learn English) they are changing to Bi-Bi after hearing psychologists made this finding. Nothing is new under the sun.

I find that very odd that you want us all to respect each other for different opinions. I have seen how snippy some of you guys can be, including you. I have seen your posts where you touted the oral education. It sounds like that you forbade your kids to learn ASL until much later on. You even told Vampryox that ASL should be the deaf person's personal choice (as in when the deaf person is older). I doubt that you would ever agree that CI should be the deaf person's personal choice (as in when the deaf person is older). I see the CI is a big gamble as no one can be sure of the outcome. That is why I think the ASL should be there from the beginning so to improve the deaf child's education and should be there as a safety net if the CI is in the picture. After all, ASL does improve the hearing child's vocabulary so why deny the same thing to a deaf child.
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Unread 01-30-2008, 03:17 AM   #17
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Going without a full toolbox is just like going to Las Vegas 98% of the time, lol....

Exactly! You said it the best, Tousi !
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Unread 01-30-2008, 05:35 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano View Post
JUST AS YOU DON'T CARE IF WE LIKE IT, WE PARENTS ALSO DON'T CARE IF YOU DEAF PEOPLE LIKE IT AND YOU KNOW WHAT THE KIDS THAT YOU SO MUCH CARE ABOUT ARE THE ONES THAT ARE AT RISKS BECAUSE AS LONG AS PEOPLE IN THE DEAF COMMUNITY THINK LIKE YOU DO WE PARENTS OF ORAL DEAF CHILDREN WILL NOT EXPOSE OUR CHILDREN TO PEOPLE LIKE YOU.
Whoa...yelling? Relax..my post wasnt about u.

Ok...at least I am honest with how I feel when people tell lies about ASL or say that ASL is not needed.

I am not gonna be two-faced jjust to make some people happy.
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Unread 01-30-2008, 05:36 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by deafdyke View Post
Ummm Jackie, many of US were oral only. NOBODY HERE is one of those Deaf extremists who is advocating "only Sign" for ALL dhh kids.
Lots of us raised oral kids are glad we have oral abilty. We're just wondering why oral only runs on a really kind of audist platform, where Sign or anything else like that is an afterthought.
It's so ironic.................AG Bell etc implies that there's "freedom in listening and talking" BUT, on the other hand oral only kids can't function without hearing aids and CIs.
Many of us wouldn't appear to be anti-oral if more pro oralonliers were working with a full toolbox approach. Instead they are working with the approach that oral is best, and anything else is "special needs" or a "inhibitory crutch"
That was the point I was trying to make but at this point I dont care anymore if my honest feelings turn some people off. That is how I really feel and if it makes people hate me, so be it. I would rather be honest than be two faced.
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Unread 01-30-2008, 05:38 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Buffalo View Post
Maybe the better question is do the hearing people in general really respect the Deafs' choices?? It is absolutely unfair for the government to allow the hearing people to decide on the education, jobs and even the reproductive rights for the Deaf population. Even they allowed parents to have CI put in the infant's head (scalpel to the head) so the kid can be more like hearing just like the parents. The government didn't stop it after the first death from CI-related complication(s). When those two American lesbians want a deaf child, one of them got pregnant the old fashioned way (where is the scalpel???) when they found a guy with 5 generations of deafness. Guess what? The British is trying to chip away the deaf population's reproductive rights with the Clause 14. I won't be surprised if the USA and other countries tried to emulate that. The Chinese government already required the Deaf Chinese to get the proof of sterilization before he/she can get married.

The fact is that the hearing people have too much power over the deaf popluation. I believe that it is time for the Deaf Education to be under all-Deaf school board, not all-hearing school board. The hearing people had over 100 years of oralism and doesn't have much to show for it. The fourth grade reading skill of the average Deaf people? That is the proof of failure. The hearing people aren't going to relinquish their control of Deaf Education over to the Deaf people. The hearing people still don't listen to the Deaf people on the education for the Deaf. They listened to Stokoe (hearing) when he announced that ASL is a language in its own right. To me, TC is a long hesitant before the switch over to Bi-Bi. According to this link- (Sign language may help deaf children learn English) they are changing to Bi-Bi after hearing psychologists made this finding. Nothing is new under the sun.

I find that very odd that you want us all to respect each other for different opinions. I have seen how snippy some of you guys can be, including you. I have seen your posts where you touted the oral education. It sounds like that you forbade your kids to learn ASL until much later on. You even told Vampryox that ASL should be the deaf person's personal choice (as in when the deaf person is older). I doubt that you would ever agree that CI should be the deaf person's personal choice (as in when the deaf person is older). I see the CI is a big gamble as no one can be sure of the outcome. That is why I think the ASL should be there from the beginning so to improve the deaf child's education and should be there as a safety net if the CI is in the picture. After all, ASL does improve the hearing child's vocabulary so why deny the same thing to a deaf child.

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Unread 01-30-2008, 05:39 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by jillio View Post
I don't know of anyone here that chooses to use "just ASL only". Given the fact that even the strongest ASL users are typing written words, it would seem to be that they are using ASL and English.
I dont know of anyone who choose to be ASL only.
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Unread 01-30-2008, 05:40 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by jillio View Post
[/B]

Why are you yelling?

And isn't the bolded statement above a bit judgemental for someone who claims to respect others and their decisions?
Thank u.
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Unread 01-30-2008, 06:02 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalo View Post
Maybe the better question is do the hearing people in general really respect the Deafs' choices?? It is absolutely unfair for the government to allow the hearing people to decide on the education, jobs and even the reproductive rights for the Deaf population. Even they allowed parents to have CI put in the infant's head (scalpel to the head) so the kid can be more like hearing just like the parents. The government didn't stop it after the first death from CI-related complication(s). When those two American lesbians want a deaf child, one of them got pregnant the old fashioned way (where is the scalpel???) when they found a guy with 5 generations of deafness. Guess what? The British is trying to chip away the deaf population's reproductive rights with the Clause 14. I won't be surprised if the USA and other countries tried to emulate that. The Chinese government already required the Deaf Chinese to get the proof of sterilization before he/she can get married.

The fact is that the hearing people have too much power over the deaf popluation. I believe that it is time for the Deaf Education to be under all-Deaf school board, not all-hearing school board. The hearing people had over 100 years of oralism and doesn't have much to show for it. The fourth grade reading skill of the average Deaf people? That is the proof of failure. The hearing people aren't going to relinquish their control of Deaf Education over to the Deaf people. The hearing people still don't listen to the Deaf people on the education for the Deaf. They listened to Stokoe (hearing) when he announced that ASL is a language in its own right. To me, TC is a long hesitant before the switch over to Bi-Bi. According to this link- (Sign language may help deaf children learn English) they are changing to Bi-Bi after hearing psychologists made this finding. Nothing is new under the sun.

I find that very odd that you want us all to respect each other for different opinions. I have seen how snippy some of you guys can be, including you. I have seen your posts where you touted the oral education. It sounds like that you forbade your kids to learn ASL until much later on. You even told Vampryox that ASL should be the deaf person's personal choice (as in when the deaf person is older). I doubt that you would ever agree that CI should be the deaf person's personal choice (as in when the deaf person is older). I see the CI is a big gamble as no one can be sure of the outcome. That is why I think the ASL should be there from the beginning so to improve the deaf child's education and should be there as a safety net if the CI is in the picture. After all, ASL does improve the hearing child's vocabulary so why deny the same thing to a deaf child.

Can I ask what are you doing to change the Deaf community? Are you working with Deaf Schools and school boards? Just so I understand, since you believe in a deaf only school board then parents who are hearing like Jillio and Rick would not be allowed to serve on the board or do you mean just people who have a stake in deaf education like parents and deaf members?
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Unread 01-30-2008, 06:26 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano
I have a question for all. If I can respect people's choices to just use ASL then why can't people respect my choices to raise my deaf teenagers orally and have them implanted. I do not understand why some people think they have the right to tell me that it was not my right to implant my children. What is happening is that a lot of you are scaring new parents away from seeking information from people in the Deaf culture. Why can we not just agree to disagree and treat each other with respect. Why can't people just admit that cochlear implants can be a very valuable tool
I used to be against cochlear implants in children because of the attitudes of some hearing parents, ever since the improved hearing technologies came out, some of these parents refused to learn sign language with their child, They're so focus on speech and hearing. Many Deaf adults including myself have told the hearing parents how we have suffered because our family members have refused to be flexible in using communication modes. (including sign language). That's been ignored quite often and it's sad. I have only recommend all hearing parents of deaf children to use sign language too, don't cut that out of the deaf child's life, not at any time. It's so frustrated to get through some hearing parents, who prefer to go in their way, without trying to understand where some of us are coming from. While I have no problem with your choice of chosen oral, if it works for your child then great. but signs play the biggest role in the child's life too, Let's not forget that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano
BUT MY CHILDREN DO NOT NEED SIGN LANGUAGE SO WHY IS THIS YOUR CONCERN.
And Why not? You know, I personally have nothing against you, but just the attitude of some hearing parents including You, What blews me away that 30 years later, views have not changed much between ASL versus Oral. Why does it have to be either one of them? Why not both?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano
I DO RESPECT YOU AND OTHERS THAT HAVE CHOSEN THEIR MODE OF COMMUNICATION
We were not able to choose which mode of communication we want, it was given to us by our parents just like how you gave your children theirs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano
I AM GLAD THAT THEY DO KNOW BOTH NOW. I AM GLAD THAT THEY HAVE FRIENDS THAT ARE ORAL, ORAL AND SIGNERS, AND ONLY SIGNERS. I LIKE THEIR FRIENDS THEY ARE VERY ACCEPTING OF MY CHILDREN. I HAVE HAD A COUPLE OF THEIR ONLY SIGNING FRIENDS TELL ME THAT THEY WISHED THEY COULD TALK.
Now they know signs?, I thought you said from your previous post that your children did not need to learn sign language.
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Unread 01-30-2008, 06:51 AM   #25
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I do not need to post extra because Cheri said everything is good enough.

Jackie, I respect you as parents what you think best for your children when we see different as you but I think nothing wrong when we share our past experience what and how we had through and know what it is about. If your children are happy what they are then is great which we doesn't because our parents want us do what they wants instead of consider our feeling.

I personally disagree to have oral only because my hubby was raised oral. I see through him. I prefer to know what I really am, not do what my parents want and fulfill my parent's dream wish but my own dream wish. I guess it's selfish wish of the parents who wish their children do to fulfill their wish.

Remember, each child is different.

I don't force my children to sign because I am deaf and signing with speak/lip movement. I do what I am and do what they are and let my children see what I am... then they sign themselves automatic thru watch from us without get force from us. I would not upset if my children don't want sign but accept if they want to speak because I has no problem to know their lip movement when they speak...

It does the same with deaf children... The parents can speak what they are and want to learn sign how to communicate with their deaf children instead of force deaf children to oral only. Leave them what they are... If they want to use oral then leave them... If they want to sign without speaking/lipmovement then leave them... If they want to sign with speak/lipmovement then leave them.... They will know what they really want later...


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Unread 01-30-2008, 07:45 AM   #26
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Apology accepted. Yes, typing in all caps is considered to be yelling. That is why we usually use a different color font or italics when we reply within post.
I would have typed in a different colored font but I am not at home on my regular computer, i know how to use my home pc and i trying to figure out my lap top. Without my son here teaching how to use this lap top, i am trying to figure it out myself.
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Unread 01-30-2008, 07:50 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by deafdyke View Post
Ummm Jackie, many of US were oral only. NOBODY HERE is one of those Deaf extremists who is advocating "only Sign" for ALL dhh kids.
Lots of us raised oral kids are glad we have oral abilty. We're just wondering why oral only runs on a really kind of audist platform, where Sign or anything else like that is an afterthought.
It's so ironic.................AG Bell etc implies that there's "freedom in listening and talking" BUT, on the other hand oral only kids can't function without hearing aids and CIs.
Many of us wouldn't appear to be anti-oral if more pro oralonliers were working with a full toolbox approach. Instead they are working with the approach that oral is best, and anything else is "special needs" or a "inhibitory crutch"
I have never approached as oral is the best and that all deaf children need to be raised as oral only. My children do have a toolbox, but it our decision what they need in their toolbox. Not all deaf children need the same things in their toolbox. Just because thye are oral does not mean they are not deaf. It is actually deaf adults that have told my children they are HH not deaf/ I have explain to my children that they are deaf and function as HH when they have their devices on.
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Unread 01-30-2008, 07:57 AM   #28
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Let me tell you about the story when the audiologist told us that our children were deaf. You know what they said that my children would never read above a 3rd grade level and would never talk. What hit the most was that they would never read above a 3rd grade level. That was not acceptable and that is why I began researching. I am very happy to report that both of my children read above a 10th grade level.
I did say that it should a deaf child's choice to learn ASL but don't most you also say that it is child's choice if they want an implant. Yes, I am much more of an oralist. But just because I am an oralist, it does not mean that I believe oral is best or that all deaf children should be oral.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalo View Post
Maybe the better question is do the hearing people in general really respect the Deafs' choices?? It is absolutely unfair for the government to allow the hearing people to decide on the education, jobs and even the reproductive rights for the Deaf population. Even they allowed parents to have CI put in the infant's head (scalpel to the head) so the kid can be more like hearing just like the parents. The government didn't stop it after the first death from CI-related complication(s). When those two American lesbians want a deaf child, one of them got pregnant the old fashioned way (where is the scalpel???) when they found a guy with 5 generations of deafness. Guess what? The British is trying to chip away the deaf population's reproductive rights with the Clause 14. I won't be surprised if the USA and other countries tried to emulate that. The Chinese government already required the Deaf Chinese to get the proof of sterilization before he/she can get married.

The fact is that the hearing people have too much power over the deaf popluation. I believe that it is time for the Deaf Education to be under all-Deaf school board, not all-hearing school board. The hearing people had over 100 years of oralism and doesn't have much to show for it. The fourth grade reading skill of the average Deaf people? That is the proof of failure. The hearing people aren't going to relinquish their control of Deaf Education over to the Deaf people. The hearing people still don't listen to the Deaf people on the education for the Deaf. They listened to Stokoe (hearing) when he announced that ASL is a language in its own right. To me, TC is a long hesitant before the switch over to Bi-Bi. According to this link- (Sign language may help deaf children learn English) they are changing to Bi-Bi after hearing psychologists made this finding. Nothing is new under the sun.

I find that very odd that you want us all to respect each other for different opinions. I have seen how snippy some of you guys can be, including you. I have seen your posts where you touted the oral education. It sounds like that you forbade your kids to learn ASL until much later on. You even told Vampryox that ASL should be the deaf person's personal choice (as in when the deaf person is older). I doubt that you would ever agree that CI should be the deaf person's personal choice (as in when the deaf person is older). I see the CI is a big gamble as no one can be sure of the outcome. That is why I think the ASL should be there from the beginning so to improve the deaf child's education and should be there as a safety net if the CI is in the picture. After all, ASL does improve the hearing child's vocabulary so why deny the same thing to a deaf child.
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Unread 01-30-2008, 08:06 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheri View Post
I used to be against cochlear implants in children because of the attitudes of some hearing parents, ever since the improved hearing technologies came out, some of these parents refused to learn sign language with their child, They're so focus on speech and hearing. Many Deaf adults including myself have told the hearing parents how we have suffered because our family members have refused to be flexible in using communication modes. (including sign language). That's been ignored quite often and it's sad. I have only recommend all hearing parents of deaf children to use sign language too, don't cut that out of the deaf child's life, not at any time. It's so frustrated to get through some hearing parents, who prefer to go in their way, without trying to understand where some of us are coming from. While I have no problem with your choice of chosen oral, if it works for your child then great. but signs play the biggest role in the child's life too, Let's not forget that.

And Why not? You know, I personally have nothing against you, but just the attitude of some hearing parents including You, What blews me away that 30 years later, views have not changed much between ASL versus Oral. Why does it have to be either one of them? Why not both?


We were not able to choose which mode of communication we want, it was given to us by our parents just like how you gave your children theirs.

YOU ARE RIGHT I KNOW THAT MOST PARENTS CHOICE THE MODE FOR THEIR CHILD JUST AS I DID BUT WHAT I HAVE TOLD MY CHILDREN SINCE AROUND 10 YEARS OLD THAT IF THEY WANT DROP THEIR VOICE AND JUST IMMERSE THEMSELVES IN THE DEAF CULTURE THAT IS JUST FINE WITH US AND THAT BOTH MY HUSBAND AND MYSELF WILL LEARN MORE SIGN LANGUAGE.


Now they know signs?, I thought you said from your previous post that your children did not need to learn sign language.
You are right I have said and will always they do not need to learn how to sign to live their lives. I am not against sign language and yes they both do know sign language. My daughter is quite fluent in sign language on a more social level. She can and has been the go between her deaf friends that only sign and her friends' parents do not know sign language. My son thinks he is fluent but he is not really, he does have friends that only sign and he communicates with them but usually I or my daughter have to explain to them what he is trying to say.
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Unread 01-30-2008, 08:15 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liebling:-))) View Post
I do not need to post extra because Cheri said everything is good enough.

Jackie, I respect you as parents what you think best for your children when we see different as you but I think nothing wrong when we share our past experience what and how we had through and know what it is about. If your children are happy what they are then is great which we doesn't because our parents want us do what they wants instead of consider our feeling.

I personally disagree to have oral only because my hubby was raised oral. I see through him. I prefer to know what I really am, not do what my parents want and fulfill my parent's dream wish but my own dream wish. I guess it's selfish wish of the parents who wish their children do to fulfill their wish.

Remember, each child is different.

I don't force my children to sign because I am deaf and signing with speak/lip movement. I do what I am and do what they are and let my children see what I am... then they sign themselves automatic thru watch from us without get force from us. I would not upset if my children don't want sign but accept if they want to speak because I has no problem to know their lip movement when they speak...

It does the same with deaf children... The parents can speak what they are and want to learn sign how to communicate with their deaf children instead of force deaf children to oral only. Leave them what they are... If they want to use oral then leave them... If they want to sign without speaking/lipmovement then leave them... If they want to sign with speak/lipmovement then leave them.... They will know what they really want later...


When my kids were diagnosis, we really thought about how should we raise them. While I was not against them being raise with sign language I wanted them to have choices. The research that I did showed me that if a profoundly deaf child was raised in both oral and sign language they would take off in the sign language and not the oral language (I know some of you disagree with me but this what I found out back them). Our thoughts were lets raised them in oral language and them when they are old enough to make their own decisions they can just be oral, oral and sign, or drop their voice and just sign. But I was going to give them a choice and they now have a choice. And they are more oral then sign but they have very close friends that just sign and since niether drives yet, I either take them to see their sign only friends or they come to our home but they have choice. I would not change a thing about the way I have raised them. My children know why we made the decisions we have made. I know many of you have said that you wished your parents learned sign language. I would be more then happy to learn sign language. I have taken a couple of classes but am not fluent but I would be more then happy to try to become fluent if my children want me too.
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