Hearing College for a deaf student?

Hi!!

So..it is my first time here and its cool! My name is Colleen and I am from Massachusetts. I was born deaf and I grew up in a hearing family. I learned ASL at an early age and I went to ASD (American School for the Deaf) from preschool to 7th grade. I left ASD in 7th grade due to personal reasons and I enrolled into a public school in my small town. I must admit it was the hardest thing ever. I was the only deaf student in my town. I struggled because I hated to have an interpreter. I wanted to go to classes on my own and I did that all the time. I was able to make friends and they learned ASL for me. I attended a regular public school in 7th and 8th grade, but then I couldnt attend high school because they didnt offer any help other than an interpreter. They wanted me to have an interpreter with me all day. So I refused to go there. I was forced to be homeschooled and I think I started to have problems since then. I started to feel lonely and I never socialized. I didnt have prom, high school graduation, played sports, or anything like that.

But I managed to go through it and to get a high school diploma. I then went to a community college nearly and I didnt really like it. I wanted to have a college experience away from home. I am not close with my family, even though they know some ASL. I attended a community college for one year and half. During the time I was working SO hard to apply to College of the Holy Cross. The college is very hard to get into, so I got rejected twice. I then went to UMASS Amherst my sophomore year-this past spring semester. I lived in the dorm but i didnt meet any deaf students or anybody that knows ASL. I felt so lonely and I was so uncomfortable in my dorm. I couldnt get support services from UMASS. I barely passed my classes.

Then… I left UMASS after just one semester. Right now I am doing an internship at the Aquarium in Boston and I really like it. I am meeting more deaf people in Boston and it is going better.

But now, I am having a really hard time to decide what to do with schooling.. My family wants me to continue my education at Umass and some others said I should go to Gallaudet or NITD which I just don't agree with. I work so hard to be in the hearing world. I became too involved in the hearing world and I forget what it is like to be in the deaf school. I do want to make deaf friends but I don't know what the right school is for me. I am thinking about University of New Hampshire since they have ASL major/minor? I want to study Zoology.

Sorry this is soooo long!! But I am really lost here. Please help and your opinions!! It will be much appreciated. Thanks so much!!

go to Gallaudet.

colleen875 said:

Hi!!

So..it is my first time here and its cool! My name is Colleen and I am from Massachusetts. I was born deaf and I grew up in a hearing family. I learned ASL at an early age and I went to ASD (American School for the Deaf) from preschool to 7th grade. I left ASD in 7th grade due to personal reasons and I enrolled into a public school in my small town. I must admit it was the hardest thing ever. I was the only deaf student in my town. I struggled because I hated to have an interpreter. I wanted to go to classes on my own and I did that all the time. I was able to make friends and they learned ASL for me. I attended a regular public school in 7th and 8th grade, but then I couldnt attend high school because they didnt offer any help other than an interpreter. They wanted me to have an interpreter with me all day. So I refused to go there. I was forced to be homeschooled and I think I started to have problems since then. I started to feel lonely and I never socialized. I didnt have prom, high school graduation, played sports, or anything like that.

But I managed to go through it and to get a high school diploma. I then went to a community college nearly and I didnt really like it. I wanted to have a college experience away from home. I am not close with my family, even though they know some ASL. I attended a community college for one year and half. During the time I was working SO hard to apply to College of the Holy Cross. The college is very hard to get into, so I got rejected twice. I then went to UMASS Amherst my sophomore year-this past spring semester. I lived in the dorm but i didnt meet any deaf students or anybody that knows ASL. I felt so lonely and I was so uncomfortable in my dorm. I couldnt get support services from UMASS. I barely passed my classes.

Then… I left UMASS after just one semester. Right now I am doing an internship at the Aquarium in Boston and I really like it. I am meeting more deaf people in Boston and it is going better.

But now, I am having a really hard time to decide what to do with schooling.. My family wants me to continue my education at Umass and some others said I should go to Gallaudet or NITD which I just don't agree with. I work so hard to be in the hearing world. I became too involved in the hearing world and I forget what it is like to be in the deaf school. I do want to make deaf friends but I don't know what the right school is for me. I am thinking about University of New Hampshire since they have ASL major/minor? I want to study Zoology.

Sorry this is soooo long!! But I am really lost here. Please help and your opinions!! It will be much appreciated. Thanks so much!!

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Have you looked into Northern Essex Community College in Haverhill. I went there and had note takers and my guidance counselor was hoh and knew ASL . They have an office Deaf and HOH students . I ,did not know enough ASL to have an interpreter so I tried having an oral interpreter. A woman would repeat what was being said voiceless. I didn't like b/c the whole class end up looking at me the whole time. You should do what you feel it best for yourself and not what other thinks.
I am from Massachusetts too, and I think it's great you went ASD , I wish I did.

I don't know about Gallaudet.. It does sound like a nice experience but I can't just imagine myself going to a deaf college. I use English ASL and I am usually with hearing people all of the time. Gallaudet doesn't even have my major. I want to study science or medicial. It's just hard to find a right school for me.

colleen875 said:

I don't know about Gallaudet.. It does sound like a nice experience but I can't just imagine myself going to a deaf college. I use English ASL and I am usually with hearing people all of the time. Gallaudet doesn't even have my major. I want to study science or medicial. It's just hard to find a right school for me.

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Northern Essex Community College has hearing students too.

I don't want to go back to a community college. I went to Holyoke community college for a year and half. It was really boring. I want to live in the dorm and to be able to socialize with people. I went to asd for 8 years- it wasnt too bad. It was okay I guess. I was really young anyways.

colleen875 said:

Hi!!

So..it is my first time here and its cool! My name is Colleen and I am from Massachusetts. I was born deaf and I grew up in a hearing family. I learned ASL at an early age and I went to ASD (American School for the Deaf) from preschool to 7th grade. I left ASD in 7th grade due to personal reasons and I enrolled into a public school in my small town. I must admit it was the hardest thing ever. I was the only deaf student in my town. I struggled because I hated to have an interpreter. I wanted to go to classes on my own and I did that all the time. I was able to make friends and they learned ASL for me. I attended a regular public school in 7th and 8th grade, but then I couldnt attend high school because they didnt offer any help other than an interpreter. They wanted me to have an interpreter with me all day. So I refused to go there. I was forced to be homeschooled and I think I started to have problems since then. I started to feel lonely and I never socialized. I didnt have prom, high school graduation, played sports, or anything like that.

But I managed to go through it and to get a high school diploma. I then went to a community college nearly and I didnt really like it. I wanted to have a college experience away from home. I am not close with my family, even though they know some ASL. I attended a community college for one year and half. During the time I was working SO hard to apply to College of the Holy Cross. The college is very hard to get into, so I got rejected twice. I then went to UMASS Amherst my sophomore year-this past spring semester. I lived in the dorm but i didnt meet any deaf students or anybody that knows ASL. I felt so lonely and I was so uncomfortable in my dorm. I couldnt get support services from UMASS. I barely passed my classes.

Then… I left UMASS after just one semester. Right now I am doing an internship at the Aquarium in Boston and I really like it. I am meeting more deaf people in Boston and it is going better.

But now, I am having a really hard time to decide what to do with schooling.. My family wants me to continue my education at Umass and some others said I should go to Gallaudet or NITD which I just don't agree with. I work so hard to be in the hearing world. I became too involved in the hearing world and I forget what it is like to be in the deaf school. I do want to make deaf friends but I don't know what the right school is for me. I am thinking about University of New Hampshire since they have ASL major/minor? I want to study Zoology.

Sorry this is soooo long!! But I am really lost here. Please help and your opinions!! It will be much appreciated. Thanks so much!!

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Initially, I agree Gally isn't for you, but after some pause, i can see that attending Galludet prior to the 'real thing' is not a easy or harder path or a frivolous experience, it IS a necessity for YOU.
I can see how you believe that going to Gally be considered as a "nice experience but impractical" for your study needs.....so yes you'd need to go to a uni where they offer Zoology, some points but its lacking something there ....so I'd strongly advise you to consider using interpreters it is going to be the only way you'd survive in the hearing university. it is NOT like high school it is going to be 10X more intense....

Why i say so? that's because the account of your description which i have read,

it is actually a GOOD IDEA to seriously contemplate an attendance to Gallaudet University> You should pick up on a English- based diploma if not degree, AND in there you'd be 'forced to sign' well its not so much like that these days....but you'd GET the ASL exposure that you WILL NEED in order to familiarize your self with ASL in higher tertiary study...thus you'd be more equipped to cope with an interpreter in the Zoology-focused in hearing university....also it would do you a lot of good, empowerment is beyond words description its soul nurturing and it would nourish your confidence, that confidence isn't just self belief in capacity to study, but as a person, as a whole being, that gives you power, indeed 'power' that is which will enable you to influence and have leverage to request all the help you'd need (getting interpreters , maintaining good rapports with them and your lecturers tutors, and students to see you as a confident deaf person in a real quest to succeed) it also means they would trust you are doing your bit to work and that they can see you are being responsible, hence they'd definitely help you. This is what you need, a special 'social magnet' to enable you to reach your goals of obtaining a Zoology degree.


i can't see any other way, aside from going straight into a hearing varsity , with or without ASL terp, a terp is going to save you hassles of missing out in the long run.....you have to swallow up your pride and get over that fact you're deaf and needs to access an interpreter...auditory only information is going to give you headaches....there wil be group discussion, dissections (sp?) sessions, tutorials, perhaps tour in vets, and so on, in the practical where you do one to one with (or one to three) in consulting practices then you can 'survive' in oral only but all others its too risky and too much as stake....

that's my advice...

after all, your folks have been right all along, being stubborn isn't going to help but being dedicated is good, but don't confuse the two.

Cheers

I'm just scared to go to Gally because I think I'll probably get picked on. I have been in the hearing world for so long and my signing isn't that really excellent. I can probably try it there for one year program or something then I can go to another school that has zoology program. I just want to make friends and to socialize with people.

I did visit to Gally last year and I didn't really like it. I just don't know why. I just can't picture myself there. It's really hard.

Thank you so much for your feedbacks!! Means a lot to me!

Seems like you want your cake and eat it.

If you want to go to a hearing university but meet deaf people, you probably should go to RIT/NIT or University of California, Northridge.

Otherwise, you just have to hope to meet deaf people at any other universities since they are so huge and the student population is large so your chances of meeting a deaf person is probably very low.

Best thing to do is forget about meeting deaf people at the university but meet them by going to Deaf socials or events.

colleen875 said:

Hi!!

So..it is my first time here and its cool! My name is Colleen and I am from Massachusetts. I was born deaf and I grew up in a hearing family. I learned ASL at an early age and I went to ASD (American School for the Deaf) from preschool to 7th grade. I left ASD in 7th grade due to personal reasons and I enrolled into a public school in my small town. I must admit it was the hardest thing ever. I was the only deaf student in my town. I struggled because I hated to have an interpreter. I wanted to go to classes on my own and I did that all the time. I was able to make friends and they learned ASL for me. I attended a regular public school in 7th and 8th grade, but then I couldnt attend high school because they didnt offer any help other than an interpreter. They wanted me to have an interpreter with me all day. So I refused to go there. I was forced to be homeschooled and I think I started to have problems since then. I started to feel lonely and I never socialized. I didnt have prom, high school graduation, played sports, or anything like that.

But I managed to go through it and to get a high school diploma. I then went to a community college nearly and I didnt really like it. I wanted to have a college experience away from home. I am not close with my family, even though they know some ASL. I attended a community college for one year and half. During the time I was working SO hard to apply to College of the Holy Cross. The college is very hard to get into, so I got rejected twice. I then went to UMASS Amherst my sophomore year-this past spring semester. I lived in the dorm but i didnt meet any deaf students or anybody that knows ASL. I felt so lonely and I was so uncomfortable in my dorm. I couldnt get support services from UMASS. I barely passed my classes.

Then… I left UMASS after just one semester. Right now I am doing an internship at the Aquarium in Boston and I really like it. I am meeting more deaf people in Boston and it is going better.

But now, I am having a really hard time to decide what to do with schooling.. My family wants me to continue my education at Umass and some others said I should go to Gallaudet or NITD which I just don't agree with. I work so hard to be in the hearing world. I became too involved in the hearing world and I forget what it is like to be in the deaf school. I do want to make deaf friends but I don't know what the right school is for me. I am thinking about University of New Hampshire since they have ASL major/minor? I want to study Zoology.

Sorry this is soooo long!! But I am really lost here. Please help and your opinions!! It will be much appreciated. Thanks so much!!

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Northern Essex Community College
Northeastern University (if you can afford it, they have a large deaf program)
University of New Hampshire (also has a large deaf program)

Laura

I think I am going to go to Gally as a visiting student- it means I can go there for just a year and to be able to learn all about the deaf community, and also to meet deaf people.
I will be able to get credits from there by taking classes for one year and then go to a hearing college with Zoology program.
I think University of New Hampshire is a good choice- it is not far from Boston and my home.
I think this is a good plan! What do you guys think??

Thank you so much for your support!!!!!

colleen875 said:

I think I am going to go to Gally as a visiting student- it means I can go there for just a year and to be able to learn all about the deaf community, and also to meet deaf people.
I will be able to get credits from there by taking classes for one year and then go to a hearing college with Zoology program.
I think University of New Hampshire is a good choice- it is not far from Boston and my home.
I think this is a good plan! What do you guys think??

Thank you so much for your support!!!!!

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Go with the most affordable option...and the school with the specific program you want...

Lau2046 said:

Northern Essex Community College
Northeastern University (if you can afford it, they have a large deaf program)
University of New Hampshire (also has a large deaf program)

Laura

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I told her about Northern Essex Community College and she does not want to go to a 'Community College'. There are hearing, deaf and hoh students there , she said she wanted to be around hearing people and deaf people so
Northern Essex Community College sound like a good idea to me too.

whatdidyousay! said:

I told her about Northern Essex Community College and she does not want to go to a 'Community College'. There are hearing, deaf and hoh students there , she said she wanted to be around hearing people and deaf people so
Northern Essex Community College sound like a good idea to me too.

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She is looking for a college that grants a Bachelor's degree NOT Associate Degree. She already attended a community college for one year and half and then went to UMASS Amherst her sophomore year-this past spring semester.

Sounds to me like she is at the Junior level. From her description of skills, etc. I wonder if CART rather than an interpreter would work well?

Regarding 'getting picked on' at Gallaudet... it could happen but I don't think it will necessarily. You are going to run into bullies/insensitive people no matter where you go. If you do decide to go to Gallaudet for a year- look into their New Signer Program (NSP). They have that every year in the summer time for about 6 weeks, I don't know if there are any others. It isn't just for the mainstreamed/oral deaf- when I was in NSP I met a few deaf who knew some sign but wanted to beef up their skills before diving into the academic year. I don't know the path of Zoology or what courses are needed but look into Biology courses. Unfortunately I have no idea how Gally's majors are set up anymore or what they have. As Shel noted NTID might be a good way to go too.

As for going to a hearing college but feeling uncomfortable or not wanting an interpreter-- there are other ways I'm sure-- CART or notetakers or hell if you have enough hearing take a tape recorder (I don't recommend this- I tried to do this in High School.. just frustrated the hell out of me). I'm a bit baffled though why you do not want to have an interpreter in the classroom yet want to socialize with deaf students who know ASL. Is it because you are worried you'll still miss a lot with the interpreter?

DeafDucky said:

Regarding 'getting picked on' at Gallaudet... it could happen but I don't think it will necessarily. You are going to run into bullies/insensitive people no matter where you go. If you do decide to go to Gallaudet for a year- look into their New Signer Program (NSP). They have that every year in the summer time for about 6 weeks, I don't know if there are any others. It isn't just for the mainstreamed/oral deaf- when I was in NSP I met a few deaf who knew some sign but wanted to beef up their skills before diving into the academic year. I don't know the path of Zoology or what courses are needed but look into Biology courses. Unfortunately I have no idea how Gally's majors are set up anymore or what they have. As Shel noted NTID might be a good way to go too.

As for going to a hearing college but feeling uncomfortable or not wanting an interpreter-- there are other ways I'm sure-- CART or notetakers or hell if you have enough hearing take a tape recorder (I don't recommend this- I tried to do this in High School.. just frustrated the hell out of me). I'm a bit baffled though why you do not want to have an interpreter in the classroom yet want to socialize with deaf students who know ASL. Is it because you are worried you'll still miss a lot with the interpreter?

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You're so right about running into bullies anywhere. They're everywhere.

Try Gally or RIT/NTID .My hub is an deaf oral. He tried Gally and he did learn a lot about being Deaf but he still is an deaf oral . He did take summer classes at RIT .

I think you ll be surprised that there are many students who you be been through the same experience except homeschooled. Don't fight yourself for being proven that you are function in a hearing world. You are already in a hearing world. So. Either Gally and RIT will allow you to grow yourself then you lol graduate then will be in a hearing world all over again. Why not!! You know dealing at facing with varied of disvered people all the time but your experience will boost and your self esteem will boost. But there will be always be struggles not your all alone. Everyone do. Try to think about it and put away your pride for a year with deaf school. I understand about the bully part. That sucks. Try Gally since I went there .

Thank you soo much everyone for all of your help. Yes I am looking for a bachelor's degree program. I am trying to visit NITD/RIT and UNH to see if I like it. I am thinking that taking a year at Gally could work. They allow a visiting student, meaning they can take any deaf students from other colleges to attend Gally for a year.

I feel so uncomfortable with an interpreter because I feel bothered when students look at me in classes. It happened all the time. I hated it. I don't want anybody to look at me differently since I have an interpreter with me.

I tried notetakers at UMASS but they were bad- they were actually students and they didnt really take good notes.

Yes I am a junior- I just don't know what to do next semester- January. It is really hard to decide and I feel so stressed out.

colleen875 said:

Thank you soo much everyone for all of your help. Yes I am looking for a bachelor's degree program. I am trying to visit NITD/RIT and UNH to see if I like it. I am thinking that taking a year at Gally could work. They allow a visiting student, meaning they can take any deaf students from other colleges to attend Gally for a year.

I feel so uncomfortable with an interpreter because I feel bothered when students look at me in classes. It happened all the time. I hated it. I don't want anybody to look at me differently since I have an interpreter with me.

I tried notetakers at UMASS but they were bad- they were actually students and they didnt really take good notes.

Yes I am a junior- I just don't know what to do next semester- January. It is really hard to decide and I feel so stressed out.

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Don't be uncomfortable, in face people/society have changed, these days people are more understanding, if not totally...if you accept interpreters, you are also accepting yourself, as you accept yourself as a deaf person (if not "D" capital D....that's another level, another game...you're essentially being kind to yourself and others will know that...
truly you'd be surprised
I was a full on mainstreamed deaf student who though 'Im more hearing' im an overcomer, i have learnt to be hearing thats all i need' and so on.....it was all lies feed to me by teachers (who were lied to as well) by Deaf Advisors, Doctors, speech therapists, specialist itinerant teachers of the deaf (they visit me once a week) ...when i started university 1992,I had interpreters for some lecturers (funding was restricted and was fairly new in New Zealand)...I felt more connected to the subjects taught and more connected to what other students have said in lectures/tutorials....these student thought I have guts to be there (that helped, went to couple parties but not alot as I was with a different crowd outside uni (weed smokers, my bad i know). I look back now 20 years on, shifting from 100% mainstreamed mindset to an interpreter-using student was the best move ever, still is. ..and my mindset about myself , how i was conspicuous have changed, there was no care in the world if people see me with an interpreter, it is REALISTIC and extremely helpful, and given me freedom from stress and anxiety of 'surviving the hearing world'...

I gave myself a bREAK sorely needed....outside uni i don't use interpreters at all, only in 1-to-many cases, seminars.classes.lectures cases only, i go to banks, dentist, doctors, lawyers, accountants, (car) dealers, real estates on my own on the one to one it no problem, First thing I do i say I'm deaf, i lip read but slow down abit so i can lipread and please have pen/paper ready so its easy when we get stuck...people are totally with it and helpful..
they only helpful if you're helpful too

I gave up trying to be 'hearing' i accepted myself although I can 'pass off' as hearing - these days i feel really uncomfortable to actually 'pass off' (pretendng to be hearing) because its unhelpful on both ways.....

Get over it, there WILL be ALOT of deaf youth JUST like YOU......in the SAME BOAT....
just be cool ( i don't mean fashion wise cool or party cool) i mean relaxed cool

there's be some bitches and assholes for sure, they aren't worth 1 minute of your time

pick your battles, your battles should be how your do you studies, if the world have mean people , let karma feed them, pick freinds wisely.sometimes it doesn't happen , that's ok that's life...move on to the next...
Frisky said is good, listen to her and deafducky gave you good ideas too

I now have a
BA Sociology, Dip Media Studies and PG Dip Social Policy and having a break for another 2-3 years (working off/on) writing notes for when i return to study to finish off to a Masters or PhD

I still uses an interpreters in short courses (university related) to this day, otherwise it would be impossible

Go for it,,,
ps i like Deafducky comment to 'look in biology classes' at Gally or RIT..etc because it would provide you that needed ASL skills in talking the Subject so when you're in the real study you'd be truly be equipped to use interpreters in your related studies.....just bear in mind it MIGHT be 'easy' or lower leveled , don't worry learn and re-learn till you perfected heck you might pick up some things you hadn't before along the way..

I dunno about 1 year (I think id you can afford 2-3 years) then move on to the real thing then do that.....in this way you'd be truly given yourself a real change of exposure in the ASL world/Deaf/deaf world (there will be lots of CI users who'd think they're hearing only to be humbled and be many of those still prefer to be oral or 50/50 but dont over think that bit....it not your priority....i only said it just to defuse your fears of Gally....vet nursing these days are quite vogue here (in NZ, hearing world, there is 1 or 2 deaf i know of doing that but she's so full of herself thinking she's hearing, she has a problem somewhat - don't end up like her, because in the long run she'd be more lonely than she realizes....I have lots of different Deaf friends, some are plain crap I don't associate with them, and all are from all ages old, retired, old still working, middle aged married with kids, young just in work force, young still in school, which is good because from this " I see the Deaf people floating about in the hearing world, it gives me a sense of know where I am in the world, society, rather be being mystified and anxious of where or how I'm doing 'gauged against the hearing world' that's the stress I don't need....and some deaf makes choices to rent , stay sports focused (that's why they're broke all the time) or sell house and rent , have flash car, its not a 'deaf thing' so it seems hearing people do it too.....different choices they makes in different stages of life, when i learn as i converse over coffee/tea dinner/ watching videos together or whatever.....I get a sense that I can still make choices and choose to keep mine...variety is good, and it's gives me the peace to know that I do what I do and I am what I am.
Now you can do whatever you want...but be real, and you Are deaf...it can be a lot of fun and a lot of hardwork will pay off.
Embrace it

hearing vs deaf college

Hi,
I am a hearing parent of a deaf adult daughter (28). My daughter has experienced homebound program, deaf pre-school as well as hearing Montessori and daycares, public school deaf programs in 2 cities as well as hearing high school with deaf support. She did mainstream in all subjects from 6th grade with interpreters, but in 10th or 11th grade we all decided with her that for English class she would attend the deaf resource room. The medieval English of Shakespeare was just too difficult--it's hard for many hearing students too! She attended MSSD for a time (twice) and then Gallaudet. She got a business degree, and is now in a hearing grad school with interpreters. The background is just to explain that she has experienced many aspects of education in many settings, due to changing needs and a couple moves along the way.

Gallaudet did indeed empower my daughter. She did receive emotional support from both family and professional along the way, to help her (and us!) with issues that arose-- we also have 2 hearing children, the oldest and youngest. I actually would have preferred at the time that she obtain college at RTID , as I thought she would be better prepared for the job market. I do think that she got a great education from Gallaudet, and I not only respect her choice but see that it was what she needed- to take her classes in sign language.

Now, however, to get a masters in a field that is not offered at Gallaudet (or close to her, as she resides on the West Coast now), she is pursuing a Masters in Rehab Counseling. She must now utilize interpreters in the hearing setting; she is practiced at utilizing them from high school. I do think that although Gallaudet is somewhat sheltered in terms of utilizing a deaf person's native language, it ultimately strengthened her resolve, her knowledge of her rights and how to access them, and her life experience was tremendously enriched by her relationship with the deaf community. Having experienced this, she is strong because she knows who she is as a deaf individual.

Attending a hearing university has not been without struggle, even with her ample socialization and skills. (this is the 1st semester) . Sometimes there have been alot of emails going back and forth, as well as ZVRS relay calls. I have guided her how to get the support she needs, and she thankfully has the skills to access it. Even so, there are moments of discouragement.

Based on my own experience of parenting, I would encourage high school persons who are deaf ( at least moderately) to first attend a deaf college.
When the person is secure, solid, strong in skills and emotional fortitude, it is possible to transfer or branch out to other settings as a trial. The bottom line is the education. In the end, go to the best school that offers what you want, that also has the support services for disabilities (they are there if you need them or choose not to utilize them). Then you have the open door, instead of risking failure without support.