Enough is Enough...

shel90 said:

Also another thing that many of us are puzzled at....


Why not give your deaf children both? Why limit to just the hearing world or just the deaf world?

What is wrong with both? Many of us support exposing kids to the hearing world along with the deaf world hence the use of both ASL and English.

I think that is where a lot of the arguments get started. I guess it is hard for many of us to understand the view that" if oral only doesnt work, we can use ASL later. "

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and no one is saying that giving children both is bad..and ryancher is giving her son both if you haven't read her previous posts..

Think of it this way ..a huge part of my family is italian, we speak italian, i have a child that can't speak at all and now everyone has to learn a new language..

It's not impossible but it's also not easy..for some ppl they decide to learn it no prob but the fact of the matter is its not a piece of cake and not to mention some ppl can't afford to take ASL classes, myself included. Also what the hell is wrong with wanting your child to speak your language? I mean obviously if it doesn't happen it doesn't happen and ASL is a great language to learn..but some ppl just don't want to and I don't think we should hold a grudge against the ppl who would rather their children speak and talk in the same language that they speak

AliciaM said:

and no is saying that giving children both is bad..and ryancher is if you haven't read her previous posts..

Think of it this way ..a huge part of my family is italian, we speak italian, i have a child that can't speak at all and now everyone has to learn a new language..

It's not impossible but it's also not easy..for some ppl they decide to learn it no prob but the fact of the matter is its not a piece of cake and not to mention some ppl can't afford to take ASL classes, myself included. Also what the hell is wrong with wanting your child to speak your language? I mean obviously if it doesn't happen it doesn't happen and ASL is a great language to learn..but some ppl just don't want to and I don't think we should hold a grudge against the ppl who would rather their children speak and talk in the same language that they speak

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Ok but what to do if the child doesnt pick up on spoken language and ends up with language delays and deficits? That is the whole point. We see that happening to many children.

Also, what about those who do pick up on it but felt isolated growing up. If they had both maybe, they wont feel that way since they would know that there are others like them and have a community to go to for support.

Is there something wrong with that?

We say we support the use of both and then we get yelled at as if we are saying NO to developing oral skills. Where did we say that it is wrong for parents to expose chidren to spoken language?

Interestingly enough, the people who are speaking out against the so-called Deaf extremists are either late-deafened people or parents of deaf children.

Just an observation that I made. It's something to think about.

I agree with Ryancher. Enough is enough. I DO know and understand why most of us are so passionate about our views on specific topics. Lord knows I do...I have a lifetime ban from any AG Bell Association events because I use the voice THEY gave me to express my views. Now they wish I never learned to talk!

I, for the life of me, do not understand why people can't understand that not one method or one tool will work for all kids. I, the person who HATES oralism with every fiber of my being, will openly admit...for some kids, oralism DOES WORK. Especially when they have the right tools, training, and support.

I, an advocate and an educator, now am facing the world differently. I now have a child not only with hearing loss but with an expressive language disorder. Even with my background as a deaf teacher, an interpreter, an advocate, and a deaf person myself- I am STILL overwhelmed. I cannot imagine how it must be like for a parent who has never experienced a deaf world to all of the sudden be thrust with everything that involves a deaf child. It's not just that your child cannot hear. It's about communication, language, social skills - everything. And there's a wall between you and this beautiful child because he cannot connect to you with shared language...not yet. And you got to get this wall down, somehow.

Some parents break it down and are able to have a wonderful relationship with their child. Others left the wall there. Some break it down immediately, others choose to chip it a piece at a time. The thing is...that wall isn't always going to be able to break down. Eventually it will become too hard.

The saddest thing is...parents really don't always have the support they need. It's an area that we as deaf people should really recognize and we should step up and be that support in some way or fashion. We of all people should understand how it is like to feel left out, to feel alien, and to feel helpless. If anyone can relate, it's us.

Ry - I wish you the best in this journey. It's an awfully hard journey with no paved roads, but it's filled with wonderful surprises along the way. Welcome to the side of the world that's deaf.

Banjo said:

Interestingly enough, the people who are speaking out against the so-called Deaf extremists are either late-deafened people or parents of deaf children.

Just an observation that I made. It's something to think about.

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Oh wow..I didnt realize that until now. Interesting. Maybe that's why the views are so different?

Alicia, That's sad that the board has more less pushed you to no longer want to post about your experience's and thought's on your own recourse. I truely enjoyed reading your post's on here. I wish you well in whatever you decide to do even tho I know you are seeking the CI. Good luck.


Ryancher, I hope that you will find the information that you are seeking regardless of what type of information that is. No one deserves to be attacked for comming to a forum and asking people about their trials and success with different method's on how to communicate with their child. Some call other's audist. I was hearing but now am deaf I have lived in both world's I see things from both spectrum's. I personally feel that a parent has a right to make the choice in how they want to raise their child. If a parent chose ASL I think that is awsome.. If a parent chose their child to be oral then that is also their decision. Good luck and I feel tyler is going to do well with having a mother that is commited on finding out what the best course of action is. When my audis as a young child told my mother that I would eventually lose all my hearing my mother did not enroll me into any courses for ASL which I wish would have been the case but my mother chose to get me into speech classes instead. I have no regret's! I speak fluently and can read lip's. I think where a persons enviroment plays a huge role in what form of communication would suit that person the best. I have never lived close to the deaf community so ASL would not have done me much as there is no one here that use's that language. But it would have been a good tool for me to have incase I chose to move into a community that had more activities for the Deaf/deaf/HOH. Here's to wishing tyler the best in everything he does.

Deaffy said:

Alicia, That's sad that the board has more less pushed you to no longer want to post about your experience's and thought's on your own recourse. I truely enjoyed reading your post's on here. I wish you well in whatever you decide to do even tho I know you are seeking the CI. Good luck.


Ryancher, I hope that you will find the information that you are seeking regardless of what type of information that is. No one deserves to be attacked for comming to a forum and asking people about their trials and success with different method's on how to communicate with their child. Some call other's audist. I was hearing but now am deaf I have lived in both world's I see things from both spectrum's. I personally feel that a parent has a right to make the choice in how they want to raise their child. If a parent chose ASL I think that is awsome.. If a parent chose their child to be oral then that is also their decision. Good luck and I feel tyler is going to do well with having a mother that is commited on finding out what the best course of action is. When my audis as a young child told my mother that I would eventually lose all my hearing my mother did not enroll me into any courses for ASL which I wish would have been the case but my mother chose to get me into speech classes instead. I have no regret's! I speak fluently and can read lip's. I think where a persons enviroment plays a huge role in what form of communication would suit that person the best. I have never lived close to the deaf community so ASL would not have done me much as there is no one here that use's that language. But it would have been a good tool for me to have incase I chose to move into a community that had more activities for the Deaf/deaf/HOH. Here's to wishing tyler the best in everything he does.

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Great post Deaffy...and I agree I am not against ASL what so ever..I wanna learn it myself it's hard tho ..i'm not a person who can just teach myself and I can't afford the classes either...I am all for kids learning ASL but again your right..if you would have learned it who really would you have signed to, also something to think about... And I still come on here every day and post once and a while but I'm careful on whether not I post in the ha/ci discussions cause I don't want to get into the middle of all the arguing. I'm glad you enjoy my posts tho thanks

Shel- your right everything is a what if? but if that's how the parent chooses to parent their children then who the hell are we to say anything..they can read they know what ppls opinions are ..if they take that into consideration with how they raise their children then great if they don't then that's great too they are taking a different route and best of luck to their child(ren) and to themselves. Unless a child is getting beat into speaking or being spanked for not hearing something then it isn't our business to be questioning why these parents don't want to take the advice of the people who have grown up Deaf.

Alicia, yes..everything is a "what if" so my way of thinking is that by giving all deaf children exposure to both instead of one or the other lessons all the "what ifs" because the child will grow up knowing about both and can decide for themselves which communication or community to belong in. My daughter is Mexican and white so I expose her to all 3 cultures..the Spanish, American, and Deaf culture. So far she seems most comfortable with the Spanish community although she isn't fluent in the language which I hope she will be. I had hoped my ex hubby would speak Spanish with her when she was small but that didn't happen. That's one regret I have for her. Now, at 13, she seems to have decided that her identity is Spanish and I am not threatened by it as I am not Spanish. So, why do some parents refuse to expose their children to the Deaf world/ASL or Deaf parents refuse to expose their children to the hearing world and spoken language?

I just wish the best for all deaf children. Rancher..good luck with everything and your son is lucky to have a wonderful parent like u.

shel90 said:

Also another thing that many of us are puzzled at....


Why not give your deaf children both? Why limit to just the hearing world or just the deaf world?

What is wrong with both? Many of us support exposing kids to the hearing world along with the deaf world hence the use of both ASL and English.

I think that is where a lot of the arguments get started. I guess it is hard for many of us to understand the view that" if oral only doesnt work, we can use ASL later. "

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Shel, awhile back, PFH started a thread about how would you communicate with a deaf child/baby, oral or ASL? And I answered "both"...but you said I was "audist"....or that was "audisim".....I will try to find that thread by PFH...

Great post, DBajagal!! I didn't know your child is deaf.

I know Cherie and Tyler, and as both a Deaf adult and someone who works with Deaf children and youth I agree with every step Cherie and her family are taking 110%. She is exposing Tyler to both everyday and he is actively trying to use both on a daily basis.

In my opinion, at his age the key is reducing the frustration for him and giving him any approach to communicate his needs and Cherie has done this wonderfully.

I think the problem with AD is that we see what others let us see. We are quick to jump on parents here about BiBi or a TC approach. We need to remember how hard it is for parents to realize their child may not fit into the societal definition of the norm. It is a grieving process for them and I know this isn't something we all understand. Parents need support and guidance during this time, not to be jumped on.

Cherie - you are doing a great job with Tyler and Nathan!

dogmom said:

here's my thoughts, it's up to you to take from it-

my experience on here is that people are very passionate about the need to put the child's needs first - the needs of child to have access to visual language. It is not about YOU and is nothing personal. My feeling is that Deaf people have a perspective that comes from being Deaf, and those of us not Deaf <I'm new hoh> who come here are guests here. For me, it is up to me to learn about and see from a different perspective, to learn to make a cognitive leap in couple different ways, which I think I've done. If I feel personally attacked -which I don't - I think I need to look at what is in me that makes me feel that way. If I wanted to know more about hearing perspective and falsity of idea of "choice", all I need to do is look around me. But that's not what I'm here for.
How your perceive your journey is up to you.

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Excellent post!

JennyB said:

I know Cherie and Tyler, and as both a Deaf adult and someone who works with Deaf children and youth I agree with every step Cherie and her family are taking 110%. She is exposing Tyler to both everyday and he is actively trying to use both on a daily basis.

In my opinion, at his age the key is reducing the frustration for him and giving him any approach to communicate his needs and Cherie has done this wonderfully.

I think the problem with AD is that we see what others let us see. We are quick to jump on parents here about BiBi or a TC approach. We need to remember how hard it is for parents to realize their child may not fit into the societal definition of the norm. It is a grieving process for them and I know this isn't something we all understand. Parents need support and guidance during this time, not to be jumped on.

Cherie - you are doing a great job with Tyler and Nathan!

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I believe, I have in the past, praised Cherie for her approach and her attitude toward her son's deafness.

Unfortunately, parents come in here asking for support, but when they get support in the way of actual real life information regarding deafness, they get terribly defensive. I have also had hearing parents get offended when I suggest that the process of accepting fully a deaf child is a grieving process. Just recently two parents became extremely offended and began name calling, questioning my credentials, etc. after making a statement that unless a parent allowed themselves to fully experience that greiving they would never reach full acceptance of their child as deaf. The vicious reactions that attempts to actually support these parents from a real life perspective does virtually nothing to endear them to the deaf/Deaf members here. Too many hearing parents recently come here wanting to hear nothing more than praises for their parenting of a deaf child. When they get the truth of the situation, they become angry and bitter toward those telling them the truth. Does it happen with all. Of course not. It is always a limited few. However, there are enough of them to become prolific with their posts and attempts to explain and justify why they are right, but people who have been living with deafness, or people who have been involved professionally and personally with deafness for a quarter of century, are completely and utterly wrong. Then the hearing parents seem to band together, and whether they actually agree with another hearing parent or not, turn it into a "us vs them" battle. It really is sad. There is a huge amount of support available on this forum for hearing parents of deaf children. But it will never be accepted until the defensiveness is let go.

jillio said:

I believe, I have in the past, praised Cherie for her approach and her attitude toward her son's deafness.

Unfortunately, parents come in here asking for support, but when they get support in the way of actual real life information regarding deafness, they get terribly defensive. I have also had hearing parents get offended when I suggest that the process of accepting fully a deaf child is a grieving process. Just recently two parents became extremely offended and began name calling, questioning my credentials, etc. after making a statement that unless a parent allowed themselves to fully experience that greiving they would never reach full acceptance of their child as deaf. The vicious reactions that attempts to actually support these parents from a real life perspective does virtually nothing to endear them to the deaf/Deaf members here. Too many hearing parents recently come here wanting to hear nothing more than praises for their parenting of a deaf child. When they get the truth of the situation, they become angry and bitter toward those telling them the truth. Does it happen with all. Of course not. It is always a limited few. However, there are enough of them to become prolific with their posts and attempts to explain and justify why they are right, but people who have been living with deafness, or people who have been involved professionally and personally with deafness for a quarter of century, are completely and utterly wrong. Then the hearing parents seem to band together, and whether they actually agree with another hearing parent or not, turn it into a "us vs them" battle. It really is sad. There is a huge amount of support available on this forum for hearing parents of deaf children. But it will never be accepted until the defensiveness is let go.

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Yes, I think it is hard for parents to think about it as a grieving process. It makes them feel like a let down because of course they accept their child 100%, and to many this idea of "grieving" is congruent with this idea of not accepting their child for the way they are. It isn't that at all. You aren't grieving the child, but rather this loss of an ideal you had the entire time you were pregnant and up to diagnosis.

JennyB said:

Yes, I think it is hard for parents to think about it as a grieving process. It makes them feel like a let down because of course they accept their child 100%, and to many this idea of "grieving" is congruent with this idea of not accepting their child for the way they are. It isn't that at all. You aren't grieving the child, but rather this loss of an ideal you had the entire time you were pregnant and up to diagnosis.

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Exactly. It is not the loss of the child, it is the loss of the expectations you have built inside your head. Any any parent that tells you they had no expectations and were just glad to have their child no matter what is fooling themselves. The sad part is, the longer a parent refuses to allow themselves to complete the process, the longer they also keep trying to "fix" the situation or do something to "change the situation for the better." It keeps them moving forward, but not productively for the child's benefit.

Hmm. I had no expectations and am glad to have my child as she is, profoundly deaf. One of the larger problems was confronting a grieving extended family and friends- and convincing them there is nothing to grieve. My child will be a happy, normal kid, but she'll communicate a little differently than her peers. There is nothing to grieve.

The worst of it was navigating an adult peer group in denial, or grieving.

iowaboy said:

Hmm. I had no expectations and am glad to have my child as she is, profoundly deaf.

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I feel exactly the same. I've felt grief, and I know without a doubt that there was and is no grief whatsoever when it comes to my child!

Wirelessly posted

me too. My child is alive and healthy and happy, what do i have to grieve?

I was told that she was brain dead, that she would never even breath on her own, that she would be profoundly handicapped (and this was IF she even lived)...yeah, that we cried about! But then, slowly, she got better, and those things turned out not to be true.
Every day with my child with a blessing. She is amazing and we are very lucky to have her.

Interestingly enough, the people who are speaking out against the so-called Deaf extremists are either late-deafened people or parents of deaf children.

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Not all late-deafened people criticize the Deaf community. In my case, I defend the Deaf Community because I will always be indebted to them for helping me. The kindness of the Deaf community means so much to me. Funny thing is that hearing people comment on how nice it is that *I'm* helping the Deaf community. They've got it all backwards!

sallylou said:

Not all late-deafened people criticize the Deaf community. In my case, I defend the Deaf Community because I will always be indebted to them for helping me. The kindness of the Deaf community means so much to me. Funny thing is that hearing people comment on how nice it is that *I'm* helping the Deaf community. They've got it all backwards!

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Well, you know where I'm coming from.

Yeah, I know what you are referring to regarding the hearing people. It indicates that they pity us when we aren't asking for it.