We. Have. A. Big. Problem.

Swedeafa said:
Hoichi, I see you are against CI and respect that. I don't agree it is as black or white as you describe it. Firstly, it is possible that companies that make a large profit have good intentions. Secondly, the reason for implanting children when really young is that the results are much better if implanting before the age of three, since the brain can still learn to interpret the sound, which becomes impossible if waiting too long. There is plenty of research confirming this. The most crucial thing according to me is to teach those kids sign as well. Furthermore, the need access to the Deaf society and good role models. I am very much against focusing exclusively on developing speech and sound recognition. CI users should have access to sign language.

I also think it is important that if someone chooses not to get CI, that choice should be respected. It should be ok to say yes and it should be ok to say no.

Another question is what is the effect on Deaf society if more deaf get CI? This is difficult and important. I don't think it's possible to stop people from getting CIs, so there needs to be other ways of keeping the Deaf culture. There are many people that don't mind having an implant, and who are satisfied with the results. They should not be prevented from getting one. Those who agree with you that it is wrong to have an implant, should be respected for that choice as well. As for children, parents are responsible. There are deaf without CI who are unhappy/happy and there are deaf with CI who are unhappy/happy. The CI itself will not determine if you get a good life or not. How you are treated in school, how kind and supporting your parents are, and if you have access to sign is more important.

It is ok to not like CIs, but those who want them are not stupid or insane. They simply have a different perspective on possible risks and issues.

Are the companies just there for the profit? Do they hide facts? We need independent research that is not tied to the industry that can analyze and provide facts. It is not black or white. Irregardless of why, there is a trend towards more CI, and this affects the Deaf society. It is not really possible to stop the trend, so what should be done to keep sign language alive and Deaf culture alive?
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You mention choice...and I agree, people should be able to say yes nor no and their decision should be respected....however what "choice" is given to a child under three.... And the source of the studies can be questioned for biasness.....
 
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Swedeafa said:
Hoichi, I see you are against CI and respect that. I don't agree it is as black or white as you describe it. ve?
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To be clear. I dont care whaT adults do to their bodies. Its theirs..if they want another asshole, cool. If they want three boobies instead of two cool, if they want 5 ci, and a bbq grill for a tongue...cool...i dont care..they are adults...what I DO CARE about is the ever quickining rate of our Deaf babies being drilled into and implanted..they have no choice..and its done for ever increasing profits...i care sbout this. Because our babies are our future..and no baby should be drilled into for cooked results of cooked reserch...its simply first and formost about profit.

Swedeafa said:
Firstly, it is possible that companies that make a large profit have good intentions.?
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Thats an irrelevant question, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions

Swedeafa said:
Secondly, the reason for implanting children when really young is that the results are much better if implanting before the age of three, since the brain can still learn to interpret the sound, which becomes impossible if waiting too long. There is plenty of research confirming this. ve?
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Right and what is the measure of this sucsess? Its a framed cooked measure. its only about speech perception. Its not about how good these kids actually do? Compared to kids with sign from the start with all the proper help....fully signed..i have suggested to u a good couple of books...do yourself a favour and read them..


Swedeafa said:
The most crucial thing according to me is to teach those kids sign as well. ve?
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Thats all well And good. But your not in A Position of power or a polocY maker are you? These conpanies and those who adhere to them are acting contrary to what you wish.


Swedeafa said:
Furthermore, the need access to the Deaf society and good role models. I am very much against focusing exclusively on developing speech and sound recognition. CI users should have access to sign language. ve?
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Again this is all well and good..but your not in a position of power so you supporting these entities, while also saying you disagree is just rubish...

Swedeafa said:
I also think it is important that if someone chooses not to get CI, that choice should be respected. It should be ok to say yes and it should be ok to say no.ve?
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Babies have no say do they?

Swedeafa said:
H
Another question is what is the effect on Deaf society if more deaf get CI? This is difficult and important. I don't think it's possible to stop people from getting CIsve?
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We have seen the effects so far havnt we?

Swedeafa said:
, so there needs to be other ways of keeping the Deaf culture.ve?
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i think your missing a crucial point.


Swedeafa said:
There are many people that don't mind having an implant, and who are satisfied with the results. They should not be prevented from getting one. ve?
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I have never argued otherwise...


Swedeafa said:
Those who agree with you that it is wrong to have an implant, should be respected for that choice as well.ve?
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Cool, but ive made myself clear regarding what i believe

Swedeafa said:
As for children, parents are responsible.ve?
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Indeed they are. But ci companies resemble pharmaceutical conpanies in actions and how they market their product. They spend vast sums on very good marketing. They are very adapt at dazzling new parents scared to death when they are told they have a DEAF baby..(gasp!! The horror!!).frankly most parents petrefied at the prospect of a deaf baby and confronted with the razzle and dazzle of white coated docs promising salvation ala hearing and the manufactured dependence on such products hardly stand a chance...
One has to wonder how much choice is indeed really being offered.

Swedeafa said:
There are deaf without CI who are unhappy/happy and there are deaf with CI who are unhappy/happy. The CI itself will not determine if you get a good life or not. How you are treated in school, how kind and supporting your parents are, and if you have access to sign is more important.ve?
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Indeed.

Swedeafa said:
It is ok to not like CIs, but those who want them are not stupid or insane. ve?
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Never argued they were.

Swedeafa said:
They simply have a different perspective on possible risks and issues.ve?
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Thats one way to look at it, just one

Swedeafa said:
Are the companies just there for the profit?ve?
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I think their stock holders very much hope so....

Swedeafa said:
Do they hide facts? We need independent research that is not tied to the industry that can analyze and provide facts. ve?
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Yes we do..


Swedeafa said:
It is not black or white. ve?
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never once did i argue it was



Swedeafa said:
Irregardless of why, there is a trend towards more CI, and this affects the Deaf society.ve?
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Nonsense!!! The WHY is the fundimental issue here. Yes it is very much about the why!


Swedeafa said:
It is not really possible to stop the trend, so what should be done to keep sign language alive and Deaf culture alive?
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indeed how true...regardless on what us Deaf wish or write or plea, or beg, or argue...our babies will be drilled into....the rest of us be damnd..
I couldnt agree more...
As for keeping my culture alive in the face of this jugernaught....
I offer no awnswers...im just that shadow with a cigerrete....a Deaf guy who knows whats at stake!
 
The decision is difficult for the parents. One thing that should be done in order for parents to be less scared when making the decision, is that they should get to meet Deaf people. They need information on what Deaf society is and see that there are many people who are happy without hearing. I think both hospitals and Deaf organizations have a responsibility to explain the option of not having an implant. Maybe this will not change their decision, but they at least know a little more. The parents don't know the future and they cannot know which choice is the best.
 
Swedeafa said:
The decision is difficult for the parents. One thing that should be done in order for parents to be less scared when making the decision, is that they should get to meet Deaf people. They need information on what Deaf society is and see that there are many people who are happy without hearing. I think both hospitals and Deaf organizations have a responsibility to explain the option of not having an implant. Maybe this will not change their decision, but they at least know a little more. The parents don't know the future and they cannot know which choice is the best.
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Yes, there's a law (in CA and few states) that requires a doctor or audiologist to provide everything the parents of deaf babies need to know (that includes sign language, speech therapy, deaf schools, etc so they can decide what's best for their deaf child). Most of us don't trust them (Dr/audiologist) because they can violate the law without the parents' knowledge easily for profit. It can happen because it happened before. If the law requires the parents to sign their names when the doctor or audiologist provides them info with explanations (no negativity at all), that would be nice.
 
Swedeafa said:
The decision is difficult for the parents. One thing that should be done in order for parents to be less scared when making the decision, is that they should get to meet Deaf people. They need information on what Deaf society is and see that there are many people who are happy without hearing. I think both hospitals and Deaf organizations have a responsibility to explain the option of not having an implant. Maybe this will not change their decision, but they at least know a little more. The parents don't know the future and they cannot know which choice is the best.
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Thats al fine and good. ...you keep posting "shoulds", and "i belive", so on.and thats fine...but its not about you is it?
Your not Deaf your not a signer, you suppurt the ideology that drives these very companies in one hand,and lament the negative effects upon Deaf in the other
You go on about "choice" yet when confronted with the stark fact babies have no choice. you accept it while claiming its for a better success rate, when confronted with the reality yoir "sucsess" is just a cooked and framed measure, you just fall silent when asked "how well do these implanted kids actually do, you again just ignore the critical questions and dont engage any critical ideals or thought on it. And intead fall back on statements like "the dicision is difficult for parents)..so on
Mine as well tell a drowning man water is wet.
Im not sure how much about ci and its history and the ideology that has driven them and drives them you actually know. Thus i recomended two very good books for you to read.
Why this matters is simply put.
Deaf culture is at stake here.
Deaf culture is in the cross hairs.
When we have policy and actions from pofesssionals in the industry who insist the implanted should not sign lest the babies or child revert to bieng Deaf (gasp....the horror!!)...
Then the few who are not bulllied and silienced like myself will challange this...
And sad to say here is one of the few places left we Deaf can at the very least be able to do it. We have little resourcses compared to the ci jugernaught, we have little hope
its important we see the mass drilling into our babies heads for what it truly is. Its important we as Deaf take these multi national corperations whos goal is to rid the world of people loke us. DEAF at thier word.
They have billions.
They have gov support.
They have deep connections
They have an ideology, that leaves little room for people like us
They have a goal, and am doing what it takes to accomplish it.
We would be foolish to ignore them.
 
theres a lot to be said about the fate of deaf culture, and well, id call it deaf well-being...and with this 'activation' cult going on, which seems to me, to imply deaf is 'inactive' not part of society, that's a really sad way to look at deaf people. it says volumes about hearing's disdain for the deaf way of life.

but like, even after i have a PG Dip in disability, deaf, films, sociology, social policy, and law and government (NZ, not USA) i just got to the point now i dont care anymore

i lost all my energy and zest to get into debates or discussion of the fate of deaf culture, for all i know my life' is ****...im nearly half a century old, and losing my steadfastness to stand to earn in the hearing world, i just give up.

it just so bad, that there aren't many deaf jokes to go around to remind me of how good and abundent are deaf humors and esteem there is to grasp and hold....

hearing people are increasingly being more and more insensitive, while by contrast we have this "PC" talk more and more which really only serves to protect those who "HAVE"...it has Nothing to do with being 'nice' , come on, its utter sheeett. also has nothing to do with 'being truthful'

sorry i just dont like sweadeaf...i blurted out the wrong msg should have been i did NOT like....

but who cares?

win or lose,
that matters not

what matters is really, you all need to keep yourself DEAF, do not try become Hearing, its ok to 'understand hearing way' but it not the same as understanding....

that scares me the most...

as you see, most of you out there might not know the difference nor realise it (im british spelling with the 's' not the 'z' ok )

well that be all for now
 
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hoichi said:
Thats al fine and good. ...you keep posting "shoulds", and "i belive", so on.and thats fine...but its not about you is it?
Your not Deaf your not a signer, you suppurt the ideology that drives these very companies in one hand,and lament the negative effects upon Deaf in the other
You go on about "choice" yet when confronted with the stark fact babies have no choice. you accept it while claiming its for a better success rate, when confronted with the reality yoir "sucsess" is just a cooked and framed measure, you just fall silent when asked "how well do these implanted kids actually do, you again just ignore the critical questions and dont engage any critical ideals or thought on it. And intead fall back on statements like "the dicision is difficult for parents)..so on
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As for if CI users are successful and happy or not, Gunilla Preisler and Maria Midböe have done good research. A few years ago Maria studied what the first generation of CI users thought about their lives as adults. Her conclusion was that those who had good sign language skills and participated both in hearing and Deaf world were the happiest ones. They could switch language depending on the situation. Those who relied on only hearing sometimes felt isolated because the the hearing was not enough for all situations, and those who only were part of the Deaf world were also sometimes felt a little isolated from the hearing world. So yes, CI users can be successful and happy. I don't believe success depends on hearing or not. If you are a kind person or if you have good ideas, you will still have them irregardless of hearing status. To me a CI doesn't change anything. It makes it easier to communicate with hearing, that's all.

I want Deaf culture to exist, and Deaf should absolutely have equal access to education, politics and all other parts of society.

I think we agree on that it does affect Deaf society negatively when many parents choose CI. We just have different idea on how the situation can and should be handled.

I will not continue debating the CI issue here. It's not very productive to do so. However, I really appreciate your comments and probably understand more of what you are trying to explain than you think I do. My perspective is not so much hearing (nor Deaf) but rather HOH. I understand the people who are in between the two worlds.
 
Swedeafa said:
As for if CI users are successful and happy or not, Gunilla Preisler and Maria Midböe have done good research. A few years ago Maria studied what the first generation of CI users thought about their lives as adults. Her conclusion was that those who had good sign language skills and participated both in hearing and Deaf world were the happiest ones. They could switch language depending on the situation. Those who relied on only hearing sometimes felt isolated because the the hearing was not enough for all situations, and those who only were part of the Deaf world were also sometimes felt a little isolated from the hearing world. So yes, CI users can be successful and happy. I don't believe success depends on hearing or not. If you are a kind person or if you have good ideas, you will still have them irregardless of hearing status. To me a CI doesn't change anything. It makes it easier to communicate with hearing, that's all.

I want Deaf culture to exist, and Deaf should absolutely have equal access to education, politics and all other parts of society.

I think we agree on that it does affect Deaf society negatively when many parents choose CI. We just have different idea on how the situation can and should be handled.

I will not continue debating the CI issue here. It's not very productive to do so. However, I really appreciate your comments and probably understand more of what you are trying to explain than you think I do. My perspective is not so much hearing (nor Deaf) but rather HOH. I understand the people who are in between the two worlds.
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Agree with your general thoughts here. One thing to note that often the most unhappy group is the HOH folks who don't know ASL. You can actually see many examples of it here on AD. Many posts started by HOH folks who are sad, frustrated or depressed because they are excluded from hearing world even though they consider themselves "forehead hearing" And excluded from Deaf world because no ASL. The latter is easy to fix by learning ASL.
 
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Swedeafa said:
As for if CI users are successful and happy or not, .
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That has never been the question. Obviously some will.


Swedeafa said:
Gunilla Preisler and Maria Midböe have done good research. A few years ago Maria studied what the first generation of CI users thought about their lives as adults. Her conclusion was that those who had good sign language skills and participated both in hearing and Deaf world were the happiest ones. They could switch language depending on the situation. ds.
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You wont have good sign skills if due to policy and ci you have been denied the right as Deaf to aquire your birthright language. Sign.


Swedeafa said:
Those who relied on only hearing sometimes felt isolated because the the hearing was not enough for all situations, and those who only were part of the Deaf world were also sometimes felt a little isolated from the hearing world. So yes, CI users can be successful and happy. ds.
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Your just stating water is wet again....no kidding.

Swedeafa said:
I don't believe success depends on hearing or not..
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Tell that to the ones drilling holes into our babies heads...

Swedeafa said:
If you are a kind person or if you have good ideas, you will still have them irregardless of hearing status. ds.
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Water truly is wet isnt it?

Swedeafa said:
To me a CI doesn't change anything. It makes it easier to communicate with hearing, that's all. ds.
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Very very wet...

Swedeafa said:
I want Deaf culture to exist, and Deaf should absolutely have equal access to education, politics and all other parts of society.
.
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Thats nice. but its not about you is it?

Swedeafa said:
I think we agree on that it does affect Deaf society negatively when many parents choose CI. We just have different idea on how the situation can and should be handled.
ds.
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Indeed we do. Why dont you engage my ideas then?

Swedeafa said:
I will not continue debating the CI issue here. It's not very productive to do so.
.
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In other words. Rather think criticaly about this, you will just not bother and ignore it...
Cool

Swedeafa said:
However, I really appreciate your comments and probably understand more of what you are trying to explain than you think I do. My perspective is not so much hearing (nor Deaf) but rather HOH. I understand the people who are in between the two worlds.
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I appreciate your comments too..
 
I'm hoh but see through a "minority" lens...someone who usually the "only-something" in the room...citing individual reports of "CI-use happiness" isn't significant - talking about cultural dissolution and disenfranchisement when Deaf - as a group - are denied sign languages....when sign languages are implicitly and explicitly de-valued...when hoh organizations do not support sign language and rely on technology instead....it's collectivist, a sense of unity that goes away too

not having to define or explain oneself or find how something "comes up" and how do you explain it- no need to, if ASL or sign language is the glue.....
 
soutthpaw said:
Agree with your general thoughts here. One thing to note that often the most unhappy group is the HOH folks who don't know ASL. You can actually see many examples of it here on AD. Many posts started by HOH folks who are sad, frustrated or depressed because they are excluded from hearing world even though they consider themselves "forehead hearing" And excluded from Deaf world because no ASL. The latter is easy to fix by learning ASL.
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I see a lot of people coming saying they're learning ASL but have no one to practice it with. This was true with me when I moved back East , there was no one around that used ASL in my small city . I have not see anyone using ASL in the 30 pus years I lived here. I know there HOH people in my city but I never even see anyone use ASL at my audi office in the waiting room. So it would been no use for me to keep on taking ASL classes when I moved back East.
 
soutthpaw said:
Agree with your general thoughts here. One thing to note that often the most unhappy group is the HOH folks who don't know ASL. You can actually see many examples of it here on AD. Many posts started by HOH folks who are sad, frustrated or depressed because they are excluded from hearing world even though they consider themselves "forehead hearing" And excluded from Deaf world because no ASL. The latter is easy to fix by learning ASL.
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Many HOH people start learning ASL because of that. When they become fluent in ASL, they are happy in the deaf world. I have many friends like that. It's up to HOH wanting to learn ASL or not. Some of them don't want to be in the deaf world and yet they are not happy in the hearing world. Oh well, that's their life and they decide where they want to be.
 
whatdidyousay! said:
I see a lot of people coming saying they're learning ASL but have no one to practice it with. This was true with me when I moved back East , there was no one around that used ASL in my small city . I have not see anyone using ASL in the 30 pus years I lived here. I know there HOH people in my city but I never even see anyone use ASL at my audi office in the waiting room. So it would been no use for me to keep on taking ASL classes when I moved back East.
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Or you could of made it a use, and used it, learned it,and started ASL classes so on...
Giving up gets you no where...
Anyway..
 
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whatdidyousay! said:
I see a lot of people coming saying they're learning ASL but have no one to practice it with. This was true with me when I moved back East , there was no one around that used ASL in my small city . I have not see anyone using ASL in the 30 pus years I lived here. I know there HOH people in my city but I never even see anyone use ASL at my audi office in the waiting room. So it would been no use for me to keep on taking ASL classes when I moved back East.
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I have a simple question. How do you communicate with your doctor?
 
From what I've gathered over the years....so many deafies don't sign in public. When I left the big city and moved to the Beach for 5 years....not once...did I see a deafie!....and believe me I looked....they had their clubs and their friends....otherwise, they seemed to be "invisible"....

Over the years, occasionally I do run into a strange deafie and of course I say "hello"....and do have outside friends that are deaf also. Still know my ASL after some 50 odd years but don't have the chance to use it as much as I do interact verbally with hearies.
 
CrazyPaul said:
I have a simple question. How do you communicate with your doctor?
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I talk to them , I can hear, I am hoh , my biggest problem is not understanding some words or having a doctor that has an accent. I don't go to my doctor a lot I went today and the last time was in Oct. 2014 . I hate going to doctors !
 
I'm a hearie but I guess I have a radar for finding signing people, deaf and hearing, wherever I go. :lol:

I see them in stores and walking or driving by on the street. I saw them in a restaurant while I was on vacation in CT, and chatted with one at Bike Week in Myrtle Beach. I've seen them at the Festival of Lights at Christmas time, and at the Scottish Games in the fall.

. . . and that's when I'm not even looking for them. :giggle:
 
Reba said:
I'm a hearie but I guess I have a radar for finding signing people, deaf and hearing, wherever I go. :lol:

I see them in stores and walking or driving by on the street. I saw them in a restaurant while I was on vacation in CT, and chatted with one at Bike Week in Myrtle Beach. I've seen them at the Festival of Lights at Christmas time, and at the Scottish Games in the fall.

. . . and that's when I'm not even looking for them. :giggle:
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It may b/c my city is so small people using ASL might not want a lot of attention . I had hearing people signing to me in grocery store while checking out. Some hearing people think anyone wearing hearing aids know ASL . I do notice when a person is wearing HA and if they're with someone they're talking. I did ask my daughter and granddaughter if they wanted to learn ASL with and they said "NO" . So there is just no needs for me to take classes again.
 
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