Teacher Tells Kids There Is No Santa Claus - Page 13

jillio · 12-15-2011, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

It is history. There is no religious dogma being taught by using Santa Claus as an opportunity to teach about Saint Nicholas and the gifts of the Magi (which, by the way, you are using as an example to support your claim christmas came from the pagans).

I have to question your approach to religious discussions since you do not seem to quite understand the difference between religion and history.

Nope. When you start including the birth of Christ, you are entering into the domain of religion. In fact, you are specfically talking about a Christian myth when you refer to the Gifts of the Magi.

You must be terribly confused. The pagans were celebrating winter solstice eons before the myth of the virgin birth. The Christians stole the date and assigned it as the birthday of Christ. In fact, if you want to teach history, teach that it is not the birthday of Christ, and historical evidence supports a spring time birth of the individual that the Christians call their savior.

I am not the one confusing history and myth.

**Banjo** · 12-15-2011, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Nope. When you start including the birth of Christ, you are entering into the domain of religion. In fact, you are specfically talking about a Christian myth when you refer to the Gifts of the Magi.

You must be terribly confused. The pagans were celebrating winter solstice eons before the myth of the virgin birth. The Christians stole the date and assigned it as the birthday of Christ. In fact, if you want to teach history, teach that it is not the birthday of Christ, and historical evidence supports a spring time birth of the individual that the Christians call their savior.

I am not the one confusing history and myth.

That is absolutely correct. What happened was that the church wanted to convert the Pagans. They basically forced their way into the Winter Solstice and took their traditions and customs.

**deafskeptic** · 12-15-2011, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Nope. When you start including the birth of Christ, you are entering into the domain of religion. In fact, you are specfically talking about a Christian myth when you refer to the Gifts of the Magi.

You must be terribly confused. The pagans were celebrating winter solstice eons before the myth of the virgin birth. The Christians stole the date and assigned it as the birthday of Christ. In fact, if you want to teach history, teach that it is not the birthday of Christ, and historical evidence supports a spring time birth of the individual that the Christians call their savior.

I am not the one confusing history and myth.

I think this is a well known fact among Biblical scholars.

jillio · 12-15-2011, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dogmom

I think it's a shame that this issue was such that the teacher ended apologizing to the kids...when children go to school hungry, abused, beaten, homeless, bullied, scared and so on....

all this mishegas over some children's fairy tale

I whole heartedly agree. Priorities are seriously skewed. Such self centeredness.

jillio · 12-15-2011, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafskeptic

I think this is a well known fact among Biblical scholars.

Yes, among scholars.

jillio · 12-15-2011, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banjo

That is absolutely correct. What happened was that the church wanted to convert the Pagans. They basically forced their way into the Winter Solstice and took their traditions and customs.

Yep. Just an earlier historical form of Manifest Destiny. The Christian religion is full of attempts to force others to believe as they believe. And it continues today.

**deafskeptic** · 12-15-2011, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Yes, among scholars.

True.. Anyway, I first learned this in Sunday school. My church was very much a mainstream moderate Southern Baptist church.

jillio · 12-15-2011, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafskeptic

True.. Anyway, I first learned this in Sunday school. My church was very much a mainstream moderate Southern Baptist church.

I am surprised that the Southern Baptists were teaching about the attempts to force the pagans into a Chrisitian belief system. Well, on second thought, maybe not. They see that with a sense of pride.

**deafskeptic** · 12-15-2011, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

I am surprised that the Southern Baptists were teaching about the attempts to force the pagans into a Chrisitian belief system. Well, on second thought, maybe not. They see that with a sense of pride.

Well I didn't learn the pagan part in Sunday School. It was the part about Jesus possiblity being born in spring.

Steinhauer · 12-15-2011, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Yep. Just an earlier historical form of Manifest Destiny. The Christian religion is full of attempts to force others to believe as they believe. And it continues today.

Actually, the only person attempting to rewrite history is you. It is not a myth that Jesus was born. It is a historical fact. It is also not a myth that King Herod wanted to kill Jesus and asked the Magi where he could find him. Those are historical facts as well.

To say that Christians "force" others to believe as they believe, would be a direct contradiction of Zaroaster's followers, the Magi, and Zaroaster himself. Free Will. Why is he never mentioned when you champion the pagans? Hmmm .... I wonder.

I think you have been challenged in the past by several Christians on this forum concerning your mistaken views of Christianity, as well as your attempts to misrepresent scripture, yet you insist on spreading false information. That is your prerogative I guess, and maybe the reason you object anytime anyone mentions anything about "religion"- well .... except you, of course.

**Banjo** · 12-15-2011, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

Actually, the only person attempting to rewrite history is you. It is not a myth that Jesus was born. It is a historical fact. It is also not a myth that King Herod wanted to kill Jesus and asked the Magi where he could find him. Those are historical facts as well.

There's no historical documents to prove it. Any historical documents that may exist were created after the death of Jesus Christ. There are absolutely no historical records or documents that existed during the lifetime of Jesus Christ. They were all created after he passed on.

jillio · 12-15-2011, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

Actually, the only person attempting to rewrite history is you. It is not a myth that Jesus was born. It is a historical fact. It is also not a myth that King Herod wanted to kill Jesus and asked the Magi where he could find him. Those are historical facts as well.

There is absolutely no documentation of the event of Jesus' birth. All reports are in retrospect. And the myth of a "virgin birth" is just that. A myth. Regarding King Herod and the Magi...once again, stories told by others in retrospect.
To say that Christians "force" others to believe as they believe, would be a direct contradiction of Zaroaster's followers, the Magi, and Zaroaster himself. Free Will. Why is he never mentioned when you champion the pagans? Hmmm .... I wonder.

Yeah, the only time the Christians consider "free will" is when they want to apply it to themselves for their own convenience. History is full of attempts at forced belief from the Christian sects.
I think you have been challenged in the past by several Christians on this forum concerning your mistaken views of Christianity, as well as your attempts to misrepresent scripture, yet you insist on spreading false information. That is your prerogative I guess, and maybe the reason you object anytime anyone mentions anything about "religion"- well .... except you, of course.

Christians are more mistaken regarding their own history than any other group I can think of. As well as in their "interpretations" of something written in metaphor and filtered through man many, many times over. If Christians knew their own history, and viewed the Bible in proper historical context, they would not be interpreting things in such a literal manner.

**saywhatkid** · 12-15-2011, 01:35 PM

Hey look, religious discussions!

kokonut · 12-15-2011, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banjo

There's no historical documents to prove it. Any historical documents that may exist were created after the death of Jesus Christ. There are absolutely no historical records or documents that existed during the lifetime of Jesus Christ. They were all created after he passed on.

To deny the reliability of the New Testament on its historical accuracy based on bibliographical tests used by historians on ancient secular writings means you must also deny the historical reliability and historical accuracy of manuscripts written by Plutarch, Tacitus, Seutonius, Polybius, Pliny the Younger, Thucydides, Xenophon, authors of the Greek manuscripts and every ancient writings all over the world. The New Testament has undergone the same rigorous bibliographical test as with any other ancient secular writings to determine its historical accuracy and reliability. The New Testament is one of the most heavily documented piece of history that have been corroborated and tested. All points to the fact that Jesus Christ existed among us at the time.

jillio · 12-15-2011, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

To deny the reliability of the New Testament on its historical accuracy based on bibliographical tests used by historians on ancient secular writings means you must also deny the historical reliability and historical accuracy of manuscripts written by Plutarch, Tacitus, Seutonius, Polybius, Pliny the Younger, Thucydides, Xenophon, authors of the Greek manuscripts and every ancient writings all over the world. The New Testament has undergone the same rigorous bibliographical test as with any other ancient secular writings to determine its historical accuracy and reliability. The New Testament is one of the most heavily documented piece of history that have been corroborated and tested. All points to the fact that Jesus Christ existed among us at the time.

All points to someone being named Jesus existed. It points to nothing else as far as historical accuracy is concerned. The rest is myth accepted on faith, because there is no proof.

BTW, where did you copy and paste that from? It certainly is not your style of writing nor representative of your pattern of cognition. Plagairism.

DeafCaroline · 12-15-2011, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

Actually, the only person attempting to rewrite history is you. It is not a myth that Jesus was born. It is a historical fact. It is also not a myth that King Herod wanted to kill Jesus and asked the Magi where he could find him. Those are historical facts as well.

To say that Christians "force" others to believe as they believe, would be a direct contradiction of Zaroaster's followers, the Magi, and Zaroaster himself. Free Will. Why is he never mentioned when you champion the pagans? Hmmm .... I wonder.

I think you have been challenged in the past by several Christians on this forum concerning your mistaken views of Christianity, as well as your attempts to misrepresent scripture, yet you insist on spreading false information. That is your prerogative I guess, and maybe the reason you object anytime anyone mentions anything about "religion"- well .... except you, of course.

You're joking - Christians have forced their religion on others for centuries.

**saywhatkid** · 12-15-2011, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeafCaroline

You're joking - Christians have forced their religion on others for centuries.

And now, it is the non-Christians turn to force their abstinence on the rest of us. So it goes.

Do you believe in love? You cannot see it, smell it, taste it; yet there is no denying it exists.

jillio · 12-15-2011, 01:48 PM

Why in the world would anyone assume that simply because one is not Christian one abstains from any religious or spiritual affiliation at all?

jillio · 12-15-2011, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

To deny the reliability of the New Testament on its historical accuracy based on bibliographical tests used by historians on ancient secular writings means you must also deny the historical reliability and historical accuracy of manuscripts written by Plutarch, Tacitus, Seutonius, Polybius, Pliny the Younger, Thucydides, Xenophon, authors of the Greek manuscripts and every ancient writings all over the world. The New Testament has undergone the same rigorous bibliographical test as with any other ancient secular writings to determine its historical accuracy and reliability. The New Testament is one of the most heavily documented piece of history that have been corroborated and tested. All points to the fact that Jesus Christ existed among us at the time.

I found the website you pulled this from. Changing 3 or 4 words does not make a writing your own. Plagairism has been committed. Intellectual dishonesty. Nice Christian behavior, there.

Manuscript evidence for superior New Testament reliability|Accuracy of the New Testament | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

**saywhatkid** · 12-15-2011, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Why in the world would anyone assume that simply because one is not Christian one abstains from any religious or spiritual affiliation at all?

My turn? I don't care what religion anyone follows, nor do I care if they want to post about it. I also don't delve into research, trying to undo their faith. It reminds me of the dad that dislikes the boy his daughter is dating, trying to find fault. "He smells bad, he has an earring, he rides a Harley" kind of stuff.

I just find it ironic that someone that does not follow Christianity closely feels they are an expert in the field. I don't pretend to be a psychiatrist.

**deafskeptic** · 12-15-2011, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saywhatkid

My turn? I don't care what religion anyone follows, nor do I care if they want to post about it. I also don't delve into research, trying to undo their faith. It reminds me of the dad that dislikes the boy his daughter is dating, trying to find fault. "He smells bad, he has an earring, he rides a Harley" kind of stuff.

I just find it ironic that someone that does not follow Christianity closely feels they are an expert in the field. I don't pretend to be a psychiatrist.

Even if what you were taught as a Christian may not be correct?

**TWA** · 12-15-2011, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banjo

That is absolutely correct. What happened was that the church wanted to convert the Pagans. They basically forced their way into the Winter Solstice and took their traditions and customs.

Wouldn't be the first time. What a sham.

jillio · 12-15-2011, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saywhatkid

My turn? I don't care what religion anyone follows, nor do I care if they want to post about it. I also don't delve into research, trying to undo their faith. It reminds me of the dad that dislikes the boy his daughter is dating, trying to find fault. "He smells bad, he has an earring, he rides a Harley" kind of stuff.

I just find it ironic that someone that does not follow Christianity closely feels they are an expert in the field. I don't pretend to be a psychiatrist.

There are any number of scholars of religious texts and doctrine that don't follow Christianity, but are experts in the topic. They generally know more about it than the Christians themselves do.

jillio · 12-15-2011, 02:06 PM

It seems that there is some confusion regarding Santa and Jesus. They are not one and the same.

**saywhatkid** · 12-15-2011, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

It seems that there is some confusion regarding Santa and Jesus. They are not one and the same.

Right. We are permitted to discuss Santa.

**saywhatkid** · 12-15-2011, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

There are any number of scholars of religious texts and doctrine that don't follow Christianity, but are experts in the topic. They generally know more about it than the Christians themselves do.

And there are a number of scholars that are Christians. So it goes.

jillio · 12-15-2011, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saywhatkid

Right. We are permitted to discuss Santa.

Yes, we are. You can thank Steiny for bringing the religious aspect into a discussion of Santa Claus.

jillio · 12-15-2011, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saywhatkid

And there are a number of scholars that are Christians. So it goes.

Just offering information regarding how someone who is not Christian can be expert in the topic.

DeafCaroline · 12-15-2011, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saywhatkid

My turn? I don't care what religion anyone follows, nor do I care if they want to post about it. I also don't delve into research, trying to undo their faith. It reminds me of the dad that dislikes the boy his daughter is dating, trying to find fault. "He smells bad, he has an earring, he rides a Harley" kind of stuff.

I just find it ironic that someone that does not follow Christianity closely feels they are an expert in the field. I don't pretend to be a psychiatrist.

It could be because of studying Christianity that one chose not to be a Christian.

**saywhatkid** · 12-15-2011, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Just offering information regarding how someone who is not Christian can be expert in the topic.

Right, but my comment was a bit more personally directed. Not going to bicker with you, since we have made our points. I know I am happy with my choice.

12-15-2011, 01:35 PM	#373 (permalink)
saywhatkid Emerging from the sun Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: In space Posts: 7,242 Blog Entries: 2	Hey look, religious discussions! __________________ "Be faithful in small things because it is in them that your strength lies." ~ Mother Teresa

12-15-2011, 01:48 PM	#378 (permalink)
jillio Banned Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 60,296	Why in the world would anyone assume that simply because one is not Christian one abstains from any religious or spiritual affiliation at all? deafskeptic and JabberJay like this.

12-15-2011, 02:06 PM	#384 (permalink)
jillio Banned Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 60,296	It seems that there is some confusion regarding Santa and Jesus. They are not one and the same. deafskeptic likes this.

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