Reba

I don't know why that would be necessary when I was referring to one specific post. I can't comment on one post without researching the entire web first?

Deafness

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jillio

Just saying that there are plenty of anti-Muslim cartoons and characitures out there, and as far as I know, none of their authors have been assassinated by hit squads of angry Muslims operating off a death list.

You referrred to Muslims putting people on death lists for making fun of Mohammad. I assumed you weren't talking about St. Saphire specifically, since he didn't mention Muslims or Mohammad.

Reba

I guess you don't follow all the news.

I said "if you did such things to Muslims." "IF."

jillio

And it has been done, and no one was put on a death list. Not for posting a cartoon in the media.

What?Fanatical Christians don't make death lists? Why Muslims? What about Santa Ria? Or maybe one of the non-Christian African religions?

Reba

Again, you haven't followed all the news.

"The Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy began after 12 editorial cartoons, most of which depicted the Islamic prophet Muhammad, were published in the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten on 30 September 2005. . .

This led to Islamic protests across the Muslim world, some of which escalated into violence with instances of firing on crowds of protestors (resulting in a total of more than 100 reported deaths),[1] including setting fire to the Danish Embassies in Syria, Lebanon and Iran, storming European buildings, and burning the Danish, Dutch, Norwegian, French and German flags in Gaza City...."
Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy | Ask.com Encyclopedia

"Muhammad cartoonist faced ‘certain death’

Posted on 25 January 2011

A Danish cartoonist who controversially caricatured the Muslim Prophet Muhammad has told a court in Aarhus how a man who broke into his house tried to kill him with an axe. Somali defendant Mohamed Geele, 29, however, claims he only wanted to frighten Kurt Westergaard, 75.

The cartoonist drew one of 12 pictures of the holy Muslim profit which were published by Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten in 2005, prompting widespread anger across the Muslim world. At first, Mr Westergaard was forced to go into hiding but eventually opted to live openly in a heavily fortified house.

Read more: http://www.icenews.is/index.php/2011/01/25/muhammad-cartoonist-faced-certain-death/#ixzz1N0b43S7n"

"Danish Police Say Muhammad-Cartoons Death Plot Foiled (Update2)
By Tasneem Brogger and Christian Wienberg - February 12, 2008 07:46 EST

Feb. 12 (Bloomberg) -- Danish police arrested three suspects in an alleged plot to murder one of a dozen cartoonists whose caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad in 2005 sparked riots in Muslim communities around the world.

Denmark's Security and Intelligence Service, PET, detained two Tunisians and a 40-year old Danish citizen with a Moroccan background at 4:30 a.m. local time today in Aarhus, where Jyllands-Posten, the newspaper that commissioned the cartoons, is based.

``The purpose of the clampdown was to prevent a terror- related homicide,'' PET chief Jakob Scharf said in an e-mailed statement. ``The clampdown occurred after a long period of surveillance.''

The detainees are suspected of planning to kill Kurt Westergaard, who in September 2005 provided the newspaper with a cartoon of Muhammad wearing a bomb in his turban. Protests prompted by publication of the cartoons included consumer boycotts of Danish goods and the torching of Danish embassies.

``I fear for my life, when the police tell me there are certain people who are working with concrete plans to kill me,'' Jyllands-Posten cited Westergaard as saying today. ``I think the aftermath of this insane reaction will last as long as I live. It's sad, but those are the terms under which I now live...'' "
Danish Police Say Muhammad-Cartoons Death Plot Foiled (Update2) - Bloomberg

"A popular comic strip that poked fun at the Rev. Jerry Falwell without incident one week ago was deemed too controversial to run over the weekend because this time it took a humorous swipe at Muslim fundamentalists...

the strips were shown to Muslim staffers at The Washington Post to gauge their reaction, and they responded "emotionally" to the depiction of a woman dressed in traditional Muslim garb and espousing conservative Islamic views.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,294779,00.html#ixzz1N0diQfWs"



I wouldn't know about fanatical Christians. I haven't seen any death lists in the news where fanatical Christians wanted death for people who publish images mocking Christianity. Have you?

Reba

Yes, they were. Read the news.

I haven't seen any threats or riots resulting from cartoons that mock Christianity. Have you?

Read their statements. They'll explain.

What about them?

jillio

Wow, you had to go half way across the globe to find that one!

I've seen death lists in the news made by Fanatical Christians that believed certain people needed to die for violating their idea of what God does and does not want, yes.

Reba

It was in all the news since the day it happened. You don't remember?

I didn't realize that you were only concerned with what happened in the USA.

In that case, that would be the Opus cartoon.

And the brouhaha about the Comedy Central cartoon.

Really? Where? Were they about cartoons that were published? (That is what we were discussing, after all.)

jillio

No, we were discussing death threats being made because someone believes that another is violating their religious principles. That is what the cartoon does.

Check out some of the lists of abortion clinics and doctors who were listed and targeted by fanatical Christian groups.

Reba

You're comparing cartoons to abortion clinics?

Just for the record, I'm totally against using violence against either cartoonists or abortionists.

However, in this thread, my post was very specific about cartoons in one post that mocked Christians.

I'm finished feeding the troll.

jillio

No, I'm not comparing cartoons to abortion clinics. I am comparing fanatical Christian hit lists to fanatical Muslim hit lists based on the fact that they believe their religious sensibilities have been insulted. After all, it is not about the cartoon. It is about insulting the religious sensibilities of the person finding insult in the cartoon...or insult in a doctor performing legal abortions. The reaction to the insult is the issue, not the mode of the insult.

Loghead

*Ahem*

I would think that the title of "troll" would go to whoever initiated the debate with the following controversial remark:

jillio

Personally, my sensibilities are offended by the exploitation engaged in by this so called religious group.

Reba

But the controversial cartoon wasn't trolling?

Let me get this straight. Mocking Christians is OK but criticizing the mocker is not.

StSapphire

I mock all sorts of religions. I didn't mock other ones in this thread because this is specifically about a group proclaiming Christian beliefs. If they were Muslims preaching the same thing, I'd be mocking the Muslims with silly cartoons, too.



Now there is!

And yeah, sorry, got my dates mixed up. Yesterday was the second annual "Draw Mohammed Day". I didn't draw this cause my drawing ability is crap, but close enough.

I honestly didn't think any of that was all that controversial. Just poking some lighthearted fun at the people with the silly beliefs.

And mocking is okay on all sides. I have no problem with mocking anyone or with being mocked myself. There's plenty of humor to go around!

jillio

OMG! You are on a death list now!

StSapphire

Quick, I need to find mocking cartoons for 3 others. That way I can get on the Universalist Unitarian, Atheist and Buddhist hit lists, too!

jillio

You are a risk taker!

deafskeptic

I guess you go on my hit list.

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StSapphire

I think I have to put out a fatwa on myself, since I'm on my own list, too.

Berry

StSapphire, I am proud of you. That was one of the highest context ways to communicate I have seen on this board yet.

People who use that as their only source of communication were once called retarded, but are not called autistic.

Personally I think "retarded" means, "He doesn't think like I think he oughta think.




Salem Witch hunts. Inquisition. Christians don't do it nowadays because it has gone out of fashion, but believe me there are a LOT of Christians out there who would if they thought they could.

Also the Muslims are not so unreasonable as you seem to make out in that sentence. I remember when the creators of South Park were supposedly "threatened" for their portrayal "Mohammed". However the Muslim majority did not find it as offensive as many in the media seemed to think they should.

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Living life in the sandbox.

flip

I find it interesting that people are upset by Reba putting down Muslims, while the mocking done by StSapphire against christians goes unoticed.

Following this logic, that any mocking is okay, as long it's not christians who mock muslims, let's mock some deaf people with CI.

C'mon let's have FUN, magnets for everyone!

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StSapphire

Hah, and here I thought I was just being funny. But thanks, since I'm pretty sure that was a compliment.

A couple things.

1) Where are people getting upset about Reba "putting down" Muslims?
2) While I accept that I've been mocking, because that's a positive action to me, I'm honestly unsure of what it is that I've supposedly mocked. I made a joke involving a well-known internet meme (Raptor Jesus, see XKCD for the internet obsession with Raptors) and a play on words because "Raptor" and "Rapture" sound vaguely similar.

You do understand there's a difference between "mocking" and "putting down" (to use your terms) or "insulting", right?

But even if not, keep in mind that the intent behind a message is something you should try to look for. In this case, I assumed it was plainly obvious that I was just making a joke, and not trying to make any sort of a serious effort at insulting or otherwise seriously make fun of them.

I'm not sure what the whole backlash against "you make fun of Christians but not Muslims!" is for, anyways. Fatwa envy, perhaps?

As a followup, to anyone interested in knowing why the rapture didn't happen - now we know:

Daredevel7

I have a theory about this. Christians are a majority and, in today's society, they are rarely (if ANY) bullied in a serious way. They may be made fun of, but it's always in a light hearted way. However, Muslims face real and life threatening bullying all the time.

It's simple. Do Christian REALLY fear their lives if they talked about their religion? Sure a quip here and there making fun of them, but no one really cares. Can you say the same about Muslims?

So I think people feel the need to defend Muslims more than Christians.

I'm sure when Christians were persecuted back in the day, people defended them too.

I also would like to mention that even though I do laugh at the jokes/quips about religion and enjoy them, I also do think it is unfair that people attack Christians whenever they say something about God/Bible/Jesus.

People always say "It's YOUR religion, it's YOUR belief." but what people don't realize what it is like to be in their shoes. I mean, some of them TRULY believe 100% what the Bible says, and... it can be a scary situation for them. They care about people and worry about what's going to happen to them. They worry what's going to happen to society and America, and their own impressionable kids who are exposed to society. Telling them to "back off and mind your own business. It's a free country, you do your own thing." is like asking them to not care about what happens around them even though they are 100% sure that society is doing something wrong.

Think about it this way, if you meet a Christian and you told them that you engage in homosexual behavior or have pre/extra marital affairs or whatever sin with NO regret. If they respond to you with "Eh, its okay. I don't care.". To some non-religious people, they probably would think, "Wow this guy is cool. He's religious but doesn't preach on other people." Me personally? I'd think "Either this guy isn't that religious as he says or he doesn't care about me at all."

Reba

I assume you're talking about America, and parts of Europe, right? It's not the same in other countries.

In other countries, yes.

Depends on the location.

Not often.

I appreciate that.

Good points.

Exactly.

Daredevel7

Yes. I was thinking about America, specifically.

Reba

StSapphire

Not sure if this was directed towards me at all, but for the most part, when I'm not already directly engaging in a debate that's fueled in any part by religion, I usually try to keep it out of it.

Though, related to your later point (about religious people really really caring about what happens to people around them and that's why they proselytize), for some atheists (and maybe a few non-religious people, but I'm going more along the lines of the "militant atheists"), we view the world around us somewhat similarly, except that every time religion is mentioned, we fear for the future of our world, rather than every time religion isn't mentioned.

I assume she's talking primarily about the parts of the world where everyone here are from. If someone's a Christian holed up in Iraq or Afghanistan, then the remarks about religion towards them would be far different than a Christian in South Carolina or Texas.

The latter is who almost all of the remarks around have been directed towards.

The same ones mentioned. Just invert "Christian" and "Muslim" if we're talking about someplace in the Middle East, which as far as I know, almost nobody here is from or in.


I'd actually be inclined to agree with you. Christians were persecuted long before the concept of "equality for everyone" (rather than just "equality for everyone like me") gained much of any traction.

With the current times, there's a fine line for what receives "defense". For the most part, you have to be an actually established belief system (so Atheism and Mormonism are right on the cusp and comes down to personal taste, things like Scientology are out, while Islam and Buddhism are in), but something still marginalized enough in the society the people who are commenting on it are in (so, Islam for America, Christianity for Middle East, etc). It's very tricky on which sort of beliefs get backed and which get denigrated by the politically-correct.

flip

Ok, guess you just are a bit unsensitive then.

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BILATERAL SILENCE ACTIVATED 12/11-2010

flip

Yes, that's important to remember. The problem you describe here, how some secular people fail to understand the feelings involved when something is perceived as holy by other people, and not just important, is a reason religious discussions are banned here, as I see it. The point is, it's not necessary the religious people that are to blame for the ban, but secular people as well.

The mocking of christians reminds me of kids that hate their parents. It's a bit immature. Parents are frustrated, but the kids just appears cute and a bit stupid That said, I enjoyed "Life of Brian" a lot, and still belive I respect the faith any person got, though I can disagree with their morale.

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