Is God Perfect? - Page 15

**Liebling:-)))** · 03-01-2008, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Askjo

I am a Christian, too.

Should she be upset if I witness unbelievers?

Mann_05´s posts shows that she is a true Christian and respect us and our different beliefs. She tried her best to preach her cons/pros informations to any threads and express her belief without judge us. That´s why we all have high respect of her.

She offered her friendly offer to not judge non-beleivers but you choose to upset her.

Normally, if any religion beleivers are true beleivers and show their respect and love what we are but you?

**Liebling:-)))** · 03-01-2008, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PuyoPiyo

Haha... I don't care if the religions that people follow which I thought they were "deceit", I respect them with their own beliefs. I already stated that I choose to respect whatever they believe into. Also I expect them to respect my beliefs too.

So would Dharma, would Book of Mormon, etc etc etc... This part is too chaotic to me so I rather just focus on whatever existed here and learn how to handle with it into the reality.

**Liebling:-)))** · 03-01-2008, 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PuyoPiyo

Because he's Atheist and he's free to express his own beliefs

Right, I allow anyone no matter which non-religion, religion believers and non-beleiver (atheist) to express and share their POV here in the thread.

**Liebling:-)))** · 03-01-2008, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Askjo

I see what books you name. Rest my case.

Did you know how many religions who own different bibles etc.?

**Cheri** · 03-01-2008, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

Normally, if any religion beleivers are true beleivers and show their respect and love what we are but you?

I say nothing further, I see no fairness, no equal, no truth.

**Liebling:-)))** · 03-01-2008, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheri
I have a feeling this thread is gonna get locked

Quote:

Originally Posted by Secretblend

I think the whole religion thread will be locked soon.

Nope, I find those postive debate here interesting... because I like to know why they don´t beleive in God and depend on Evolution. It relate this title of my thread why they disagree that God is a prefect.

**Liebling:-)))** · 03-01-2008, 06:13 AM

What do you think of this... ?

The GOSPEL TRUTH

Quote:

Are Men Born Sinners?
by A. T. Overstreet

Chapter 9
ORIGINAL SIN MAKES GOD INCONSISTENT AND IMPERFECT

In Chapter 7 we saw thirteen reasons why the doctrine of original sin is false. In Chapter 8 we saw that the doctrine of original sin clashes with man's irresistible convictions of justice. In this chapter we will see that if the doctrine of original sin were true, it would destroy the very idea of a perfect and eternally unchanging God. It would make God inconsistent with himself.

First, let's state three irrefutable facts about God:

1. God desires the salvation of all of humanity. 2. But he, in fact, has chosen to save only a part of humanity. 3. God is consistent.

The variable that explains the difference between the all that God desires to save and the some he decides to save must lie outside of God or he would be inconsistent and could not be God. This fact is as certain as the three irrefutable facts stated above are certain. God, who is consistent, cannot desire the salvation of all of humanity and allow any to be lost unless the reason for this lies outside of his choice and his control. If the choice lies with God alone, he most certainly will save all because he desires the salvation of all. However, the fact is God does not save all because he cannot save all, or even some, unless they of their own free will submit to the conditions he has laid down in his Word.

Therefore, the doctrine of original sin with its teaching that man is unable to repent of sin and believe the Gospel because of natural depravity is false. For it would make God the only variable in the salvation of man and therefore, make him inconsistent with himself desiring to save all, while at the same time desiring not to save all; regenerating and enabling some to believe and repent, while at the same time, contrary to his will, leaving others in their state of depravity and inability to be lost. If the doctrine of original sin were true, the salvation of all men would depend solely upon the arbitrary choice of God, and God would be imperfect and inconsistent, desiring the salvation of all mankind but arbitrarily choosing to damn myriads of the souls he did not will should perish.

The variable is and must be in man. And if the variable is in man, then man must be able to respond to God, which means that men cannot be born with a nature that makes it impossible for them to repent and believe the Gospel. Any interpretation of the Bible which puts the variable in God alone is false. For if God were the only variable in man's salvation, then God, who desires the salvation of all men, would certainly save all men!

The fact that God desires to save all but saves only some demonstrates that the variable for the salvation of men resides in the free choice of man and not in some arbitrary election of God. Man, therefore, is not born with a natural inability to obey God. He is not and cannot be born a sinner. We see, then, that the doctrine of original sin and all its sister doctrines the doctrine of natural inability to obey God, the doctrine of the need of a physical regeneration by God before sinners can believe and repent, and the doctrine of an arbitrary election and reprobation by God are all proven to be false doctrines by the fact that God desires the salvation of all, but only saves some.

Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God. I John 4:2, 3

For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. II John 7

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us. John 1:14

Original Sin Doctrine Makes God Imperfect

**Liebling:-)))** · 03-01-2008, 06:22 AM

Another interesting website.

What do you think of this?

The Argument from Imperfection: Is There a Best Possible World?

Quote:

The argument from imperfection is the argument that if God existed then the world would be perfect, that the world isn’t perfect, and so that God doesn’t exist. The claim that if God existed then the world would be perfect rests on the fact that God is conceived of by theists as being a perfect Creator.

A perfect Creator, the argument from imperfection suggests, is one that creates a perfect world. One that creates an imperfect world is therefore an imperfect Creator. This imperfect world, therefore, even if it was made by some Creator, was not made by God as he is conceived of by theists. The God of theism, therefore, does not exist.

One response to the argument from imperfection is to deny that there is such a thing as a best possible world. If there is no best possible world, then even a perfect Creator would not create the best possible world, in which case it would not follow from the fact that a given world is imperfect that that world was not created by a perfect Creator. Specifically, it would not follow from the fact that this world is imperfect that it was not created by God. The argument from imperfection would have been defeated.

The claim that there is no best possible world, that the idea of a perfect world is incoherent, is at least plausible. Although there are better and worse possible worlds, for any world that we can imagine we can imagine a way of making it better. We could for instance, increase the number of happy people contained by that world. As there is no intrinsic maximum number of happy people in the world, there is no world for which it is not possible to increase the number of happy people that it contains.

Further, increasing the number of happy people in a world always makes that world better. It is therefore true of every world that it could be improved, and so true of no world that it is the best possible world. Thus far, the defence against the argument from imperfection appears to be on solid ground.

The concern with this defence against the argument from imperfection is that it proves not only that the idea of a best possible world is incoherent, but also that the idea of a perfect Creator is incoherent. If this is the case, then the fact that there is no possible world not only rebuts the argument from imperfection but also disproves the existence of God. For if God is conceived of as a perfect Creator and if the idea of a perfect Creator is incoherent, then the existence of God is impossible.

If the theist is to answer the argument from imperfection by denying that the concept of a best possible world is coherent, therefore, then he must find some way of explicating the concept of a perfect Creator that is not dependent upon the concept of a best possible world.

Philosophy of Religion .info - Arguments for Atheism - The Problem of Evil - The Argument from Imperfection - Is There a Best Possible World?

**Liebling:-)))** · 03-01-2008, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheri

I say nothing further, I see no fairness, no equal, no truth.

I said ANY religion beleivers which mean ANY including Christians. When I said "but you?" which mean is that poster, I am refer to, not you all.

**Liebling:-)))** · 03-01-2008, 06:30 AM

Another interesting website.

Struggling With Faith: Is God Really Perfect? - Reading Islam.com - Ask About Islam

Thanksgiving Article: God Uses Imperfect People, His Love Shines

I noticed from the websites, they argue cons/pros over imperfect... wow...

**Cheri** · 03-01-2008, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

I said ANY religion beleivers which mean ANY including Christians. When I said "but you?" which mean is that poster, I am refer to, not you all.

I did not speak of me, don't make assumptions. I rolled my eyes at the fact you point fingers at only to the "believers" What about "unbelievers" Of course you disagree they were bashing on us believers, when it's nowhere near the truth.

**Foxrac** · 03-01-2008, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheri

Sometimes you need to practice what you preach, You said "God is a myth", "God is not real", and "the bible is not real". So you obveriously also saying our "Christianity religious" is fake. Your argument isn't valid.

I doesn't state about Christian at first place until Askjo was assume that I'm atheist then he's right about I'm atheist and claimed as fake then I was stated about christian isn't pure or dominant religion. I wasn't enjoy to read his bble verse and kept as not true, he never know if real or not. I was stated about God, Christian can be believe in God, also other some religions are doing like that until Askjo has stated about that, continue to debate with him on endless.

Please move on and do not judge back to my post again, just back to topic, as stated about what Liebling said, thanks.

Hwy99 · 03-01-2008, 08:05 AM

Thank you, Liebling for those interesting links. No comment

**Cheri** · 03-01-2008, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pacman

Please move on and do not judge back to my post again, just back to topic, as stated about what Liebling said, thanks.

I'm entitle to my opinion, if you are then I am too.

**Liebling:-)))** · 03-01-2008, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheri

I did not speak of me, don't make assumptions. I rolled my eyes at the fact you point fingers at only to the "believers" What about "unbelievers" Of course you disagree they were bashing on us believers, when it's nowhere near the truth.

You misunderstood me.

Never mind and move on.

Respect my thread please.

**Reba** · 03-01-2008, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

Simple answer: Elijah don´t have religion to worship a God but you have a religion to worship a God...

Elijah was one of the great prophets of God. He trusted, obeyed, worshiped and served God. What do you mean "Elijah don´t have religion to worship a God"?

Quote:

See, I don´t have any religion because I know God and Jesus don´t have religion.

But do you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ Savior God?

**Liebling:-)))** · 03-01-2008, 09:12 AM

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Elijah was one of the great prophets of God. He trusted, obeyed, worshiped and served God. What do you mean "Elijah don´t have religion to worship a God"?

I mean that Elijah don´t have a religion himself to worship a God but he (non-religion) preach everyone about God. He don´t need a religion to worship him, don´t he?

Quote:

But do you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ Savior God?

Have you read my positive post about Jesus in Cheri´s thread few days ago?

I accept Jesus´s existence in my heart and learn a lot about him in bible history.

Hwy99 · 03-01-2008, 09:21 AM

[QUOTE=Liebling:-)));929282]

Quote:

I accept Jesus´s existence in my heart and learn a lot about him in bible history.

Same here, I do accept Jesus's existance, but just not sure if his word was the truth.

**Reba** · 03-01-2008, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

I mean that Elijah don´t have a religion himself to worship a God but he (non-religion) preach everyone about God. He don´t need a religion to worship him, don´t he?

Do you mean that Elijah didn't belong to a religious denomination?

Elijah didn't worship "a god" but worshiped "the" God of Israel. He preached strongly against false religions.

Quote:

I accept Jesus´s existence in my heart and learn a lot about him in bible history.

So you did one day accept and trust that Jesus Christ is God sent to earth and sacrificed for your sins, and resurrected after three days? And that you are a sinner and repent your sins? And that the blood that Jesus shed on the cross removes the penalty of your sins, past, present and future? That you agree with all that, and accept Jesus to become the Savior and Lord of your life? That you trust Jesus with your eternal life in Heaven, and to guide your daily life here on earth?

Is that what you mean?

**Reba** · 03-01-2008, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PuyoPiyo

Same here, I do accept Jesus's existance, but just not sure if his word was the truth.

Do you mean the existence of Jesus as a man, or the existence of Jesus as God?

Hwy99 · 03-01-2008, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Do you mean the existence of Jesus as a man, or the existence of Jesus as God?

That one, I am not sure which one was the truth, but still accept Jesus's existance.

Askjo · 03-01-2008, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

Did you know how many religions who own different bibles etc.?

Yes, I already know. Which one Bible is true? Please name it.

03-01-2008, 06:30 AM	#430 (permalink)
Liebling:-))) Sussi 7.7.86 - 18.6.09 Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 31,032	Another interesting website. Struggling With Faith: Is God Really Perfect? - Reading Islam.com - Ask About Islam Thanksgiving Article: God Uses Imperfect People, His Love Shines I noticed from the websites, they argue cons/pros over imperfect... wow... __________________

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03-01-2008, 08:05 AM	#433 (permalink)
Hwy99 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: A town in middle of the rolling hills Posts: 6,141	Thank you, Liebling for those interesting links. No comment