rockdrummer

I have friends from Muslim nations that are what I would consider to be good Americans. I came across this and found it interesting. I'll have to talk with some of my friends to see what their view on this is. What do you guys think?

Deafness

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Liebling:-)))

I have no opinion or fact on this.

I have many Muslims here in Germany who consider to be German and open minded.

christlovedeaf

Yeah. Muslims seems nice people here, but overlook or have been aware they are premeditate and plots for the destruction of this nation, if they have power in this country just like been happening many other countries. There goal is destroying christians and the jews. It is awesome what we "see" of devout prayers several times a day, but in that prayer is for "Allah" to destroy those who are not muslim and also those who refuse to follow the muslim or part of them. Like the end time according to Daniel, Ezekiel, Revelations and other prophets. The question is the enemy of Holy God take power over this world, would it be Islamic behind it of it all? As what we ve been seeing what's going on about the temple in Jerusalem? That's ponder the thoughts.

rockdrummer

I have many good friends from Muslim countries. They are some of the kindest people that I know. Being from a Muslim coutry and being a faithful Muslim are two seperate issues. The question I aksed is weither a person (from any country) that holds true to the Muslim faith can be a good American. The people that are true Muslims have confilcts with some of the basic principles of freedoms. So perhaps it's like me as a Christian. I know I am a Christian but I don't live my life to the letter of the Bible. Hopefully that makes sense.

Heath

Have you seen the t.v. interview that Pastor John Hagee did with the former islamic terrorist Walid Shoebat.

This talks about the exact same thing on this thread, except much, much more in depth and much more clear.

That t.v. interview is a must see for all concerned Americans and yes, it is closed captioned.

It should be on TBN - Trinity Broadcasting Network

Look for the John Hagee and Walid Shoebat t.v. interview.

Reba

Do the Muslim's have a concept in their Quran similar to what Christians have in the Bible that says, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's"? If they do, then they can become loyal Americans. If they don't, then . . . ....

rockdrummer

I can't speak for the Quran. I can only say that if the information I found and posted in #1 is true, then there appears to be a fundamental conflict. I would defer to someone who has more expertise on the Muslim religon to answer your question.

doh

:bsflag:

Similar BS claims may be made about Roman Catholics, Christians, and other religious groups.

Furthermore the United States is SECULAR. There is no reference to any deity anywhere in the Constitution. Someone's religion (or lack of one) has no bearing on their ability to be a "good American" although these days a "good American" seems to be one that's hellbent on invading other countries.

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They make a club.
And beat their brother down.
How they survive so misguided is a mystery.
Repugnant is a (not dismal) creature who would
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rockdrummer

Well I am no expert on religon but felt that was thought provoking and decided to share it here. You are entitled to your opinion and I respect that. I do see that you are not an American and also feel your hostility towards our country and it's current affairs abroad.

christlovedeaf

Even secular causing problem too. Babrbarians in early centuries are secular. Doesn't mater rleigion or non religion, both will cause problems. If nation without religion would become another Sodom and Gomorrah.

doh

I am American but I live in the UK with my British wife.

__________________
Monkey, killing monkey, killing monkey.
Over pieces of the ground.
Silly monkeys give them thumbs,
They make a club.
And beat their brother down.
How they survive so misguided is a mystery.
Repugnant is a (not dismal) creature who would
Squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here

rockdrummer

Thanks for the clearification. I based my comment on your profile. Bad assumption on my part. Either way I appreciate your honesty.

Teresh

Um, no? Allah is the same God that exists in Christianity and in Judaism. Allah is etymologically the same as the Hebrew word "El", which simply means "god". One of the Hebrew names of God, "Elohim", is the same word.

No other religion is accepted by Christianity either.

What does one's religious views have to do with his or her capacity to be a good American, anyway?

Religious Jews and some Christians pray facing Jerusalem three times a day.

Canonical law in Christianity forbids Christians from making friends with Jews.

Not all Muslim scholars advocate this. Claiming that they do is like claiming that all priests are pedophiles or all Jews are greedy--It's simply bad scholarship.

Islam doesn't instruct a man to marry for women; it places the limit at four. Moreover, Sharia law holds that a man must treat all of his wives equally, which means that each must have her own car, her own house and her own family. Practically speaking, thus, only one who is exceptionally wealthy can afford to have multiple wives. The Bible agrees with this notion, as we can recall that Jacob had children with four women throughout the course of his life.

The American Constitution is not based on Biblical principles. More bad scholarship.

For a person who wants America to be a Christian theocracy, this is a bold statement. The Qur'an does allow non-Muslims to live in Muslim lands, though whether or not that is followed is, as is the case in the US, up to the social whims of the majority culture.

"One nation under God" is only a part of the Pledge of Allegiance since the 50s. It was not part of the original Pledge and should be stricken from the current one. Moreover, saying "one nation under God" does not imply love of any kind. It implies nothing more than making a statement that a god does exist.

Reba

It doesn't matter if the word "Allah" means "El" or "god". The individual that the name represents is NOT the same.


But Christians don't advocate using violence to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Nothing, unless it creates a divided loyalty, or if it advocates behaviors that are subversive to our nation.


But if push came to shove, and the two locations were at war with each other, which location would they defend? That's the question.


Our Christian church doesn't teach that. Which church does that?


Not a valid comparison. If you want to compare apples to apples, you would have to say:

Not all Muslim scholars advocate this. Claiming that they do is like claiming the bishops order all priests to be pedophiles, or rabbis order all Jews to be greedy.

But that's not your point either. So the comparison would have to be:

Not all Muslim scholars advocate this. Claiming that they do is like claiming that bishops order all Catholics/Episcipalians/Orthodox to annihilate all others, or rabbis order all Jews to annilihate all others.

Have they?


And when a Muslim lives in America, he must obey American law, which allows only one wife. No problem.

I'm curious about the car thing. I thought the women weren't allowed to drive, or go out unescorted? (Maybe that's just in Saudi Arabia.)


No, God did not support polygamy. The cultures of the biblical era and locations accepted polygamy. God did not. Patriarchs of the OT frequently disobeyed God in many ways, and polygamy was one example. If you notice, every instance of bigamy, polygamy, or infidelity in the Bible turns out bad. That's why God included those records in the Bible.


I think the fact that our Constitution is not based on Sharia or Quran is the sticking point. I don't know how strong a factor that is to most Muslims.


And while they live there, non-Muslims are expected to follow the law of the land.

Whosoever lives in America must follow American laws. If they do, fine. If not, then they suffer the consequences. No problem.


I don't know if he was referring specifically to the Pledge. That phrase and philosophy is also used elsewhere. In situations where it does refer to the Pledge, no one is required to say it.


The phrase refers to the God of the Bible, Who is a loving, merciful God. The implication of the phrase is that we are one nation under the will and guidance of God. Whether or not all the population of this country believes or accepts that is moot. God continues to do His will whether or not the people here follow it. The phrase just states that there are many Americans who do acknowledge God's providence.

As to how that impacts Muslims, I guess it would be the same way it impacts atheists and anyone else who doesn't accept God's sovereignty.

rockdrummer

Thank you Reba, I honestly could not have responded. What I put in my first post are not my words but something I found that I felt was thought provoking. I am not an expert on religions and I appreciate you responding.

Teresh

Wait, wait, wait. Are you claiming there's more than one god?

Some, such as Fred Phelps, do. That point is irrelevant however. If you want to make the charge that no other religions are acceptable under Islam, you'd better reform Christianity first, as otherwise your argument is a hypocritical.

Indeed, therein is the rub. If the US and Saudi Arabia were at war, most American Muslims would support the US. The US and the Japanese were at war once too--You may recall that the Japanese community, in spite of its persecution by the government, continued to support the US.

Canonical law is a Catholic thing, though is also followed culturally (even subconsciously) in Protestant churches too.

You missed my point. But that was to be expected. You're not one to advocate critical thinking.

Indeed.

It varies from country to country, just like things vary in the West. There are some super-traditional countries and some more liberal ones.

It's not important to the Muslims that do live here at least. I'm happy that it's not based on the Qur'an just as much as I am happy it's not based on the Bible. We're more free if we give ourselves the autonomy to make decisions rather than giving any particular religion political power.

I don't think we really disagree on this point.

Perhaps no one is required to say it, but if Congress inserts a respect of an establishment of religion (in this case theism) into the Pledge, as it did in the 50s, it is acting outside of its Constitutional powers.

rockdrummer

I should probaby not get in the middle of you two but I'll try to answer that one. To Muslims Allah is God. Do you think Allah is the same God that Christians worshop? If not then you have answered your own question. God is a matter of perspective. God by definition can fall into several catagories. See below and decide for yourself.

God
1 capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe b Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind
2 : a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality
3 : a person or thing of supreme value
4 : a powerful ruler

Reba

One God. Many "gods".


You didn't read my response carefully.

Christians believe Jesus is the only way to God and salvation. We don't believe that non-believers should be enslaved or killed off.


"Most" American Muslims; not all?

"Japanese" is not a religion, and "Muslim" is not a nationality or race.

Of course, it is always an individual decision, regardless.


Baptist churches don't follow that. We don't have any "law" against Jews.


Of course not.

mecooncat

I got this from Wiki:

Allah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

God - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Messiah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yahweh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Polytheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Deity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Boult

Looking at what happens in Lebanon and Iraqi as well as Iran plus other middle eastern countries. among muslims, there is bound to be a sectarian violence in USA in the future.

Now, you have the answer to the question shown in the topic title.

JIMHO

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Liebling:-)))

Well, I have nothing against Muslims who like to consider to be American or European but I don´t think it´s good idea to have them to become Governor, President or important person in non-Muslim countries.

It´s just my feeling.

rockdrummer

Hmmm... that's kind of against the concept of freedom of which America stands for. Freedom of religion is a right in America. IMO mixing religon with politics is never a good idea. It would send the wrong message to say that you have to be of a certian heritage to become a government official. However one of the criteria to become president is that you have to be an American citizen.

shel90

Interesting point...that is something I need to ponder about. It would be against my American beliefs to say that I agree with you but at the same time if a Muslim who follows their beliefs strongly then it can be a conflict of interest with American politics.

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Reba

Liebling is not an American; she's European, so she has a different perspective.

p.s.
One of the criteria for becoming President of the USA is that you have to be born an American; you can't be a naturalized citizen.

I'm sure you know that but some of the non-American ADers might not, so I just wanted to clarify that point.

Reba

Muslims who are American citizens can run for office. That doesn't mean you have to vote for them. If you don't like a candidate, you don't have to support him/her, for whatever reason.