hottiedeafboi

Oh also, remember, before Jesus was crucified, the religious leaders doent understand and see what Jesus meant, the the Temple will be complete in 3 days. There are many different perspective and meaning about the Temple. That's when some jews couldn't get it and still seeking and etc.

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netrox

The Jews rejected Jesus simply because Jesus did NOT meet their critieria of Messiah. They abide with what the Old Testament says, not what the New Testament says. Christians chose to accept Jesus as the Messiah and they justify by citing the verses in the Old Testament that predicted Jesus when in fact, those verses said nothing about Jesus Christ in particular.

Reba

Since there is dispute here about whether or not Jesus meets the criteria of the Jews for Messiah, I wonder if that criteria is still important to them. That is, if a man showed up who, in the eyes of the Jews, met all the criteria, with no controversy, would the Jews accept him as Messiah?

Are the Jews still seeking or waiting for Messiah?

I know what some have told me, and what I have observed but I would like to hear from from others.

I realize "Jews" are not a homogenous group, religiously, ethnically, or nationally, so there might be more than one answer.

Teresh

The opinion varies... Traditional Jews (Orthodox and Chareidi) would say yes--They are waiting for a corporeal Messiah who will bring world peace and the restoration of the Jewish people as well as bring all to live righteously and acknowledge God (ie bring about the Messianic Age).

Modernist Jews (Reform and Conservative) would say that there is a Messiah, but it's not actually a person. The idea there is that the people of Israel are the Messiah in the sense that they are tasked as part of the Covenant of Israel at Sinai to bring about the Messianic Age.

sculleywr

Well, we have a vicious cycle going on today. HAMAS (I know you know who that is) has been going back and forth between wanting a peace treaty and wanting to destroy Israel. I guarantee that within a year, HAMAS will sit down and have peace talks, fulfilling the prophecy where Israel will make peace with the many.
It is not, and never has been a messianic prophecy. If it were, how come Jews never mentioned it until nowadays?

Again, not mentioned historically as a prophecy until

Then show why his prophecies are coming true. Not every book in the Bible was meant as a prophetic book. That doesn't mean they don't contain prophecies. If you noticed, that was a vision that Daniel had. Visions from the Lord are ALWAYS prophetic.

Then there is one thing that will never happen. You can never get all humans to acknowledge one God, and even getting a world-wide religion would fulfill prophecy in the New Testament. The temple is being prepared. They even have the red heifer required by the law and the prophets. This world is going to be destroyed after the millenial reign. And the Messiah will reign as King of the world, not just Israel.

sculleywr

And recently Jews said they know who the messiah will be. Perfect set-up for the Antichrist. You guys are fulfilling more NT prophecy as we speak.

Teresh

Eretz Yisrael does not include Gaza... M'dinat Yisrael has sovereign power over it, but the United Monarchy never actually had control over that area.

Jews have mentioned it for the last 2000 years. It was one of the reasons why Jesus was not regarded as the Messiah in the first place. You'd like to believe that the reason the Jews rejected Jesus was the concept of a power struggle within Judaism or that the Jews, in particular, Pharisaic Jews are an evil group of people, but that's not true at all.

With the truth staring you in the face, you choose to ignore prophecy when it's inconvenient to your beliefs.

Finish your sentence... Until when?

If it's not a prophecy, it doesn't matter if something happened. There are some very big whales in the world, does that make Moby Dick a prophecy?

I know that, you're the one who's blurring the lines.

Yes, it does. A non-prophetic book does not contain prophecy because non-prophetic books were not divinely inspired.

Acknolwedgement of the One God is not a statement that all would follow one religion, rather that idolartry would cease to be.

Only in your self-fabricated reality, not in the real world.

A. That statement is not true.
B. There have been several Jewish claimants of Messiahship other than Jesus, none of them lived up to prophecy either. Simon bar Kokhba and Sabbatai Zevi being the two most worthy of mention.

netrox

sculleywr, many Messiahs appeared and they warned of "false Messiahs." Your New Testament warned of false prophets because it wanted you to BELIEVE that NT is the right one but others have stated the same claim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Messiah_claimants

Judas son of Hezekiah (Ezekias)(c. 4 BCE)
Simon (c. 4 BCE)
Athronges (c. 4-2? BCE)
Jesus of Nazareth (c. 26 CE)
Theudas (44-46) in the Roman province of Judea
Menahem ben Judah partook in a revolt against Agrippa II in Judea
Simon bar Kokhba (died c. 135), defeated in the Second Jewish-Roman War
Moses of Crete (5th century)
Isḥaḳ ben Ya'ḳub Obadiah Abu 'Isa al-Isfahani of Ispahan lived in Persia during the reign of the Umayyad Caliph 'Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan (684-705).
Yudghan, lived and taught in Persia in the early eighth century disciple of Isḥaḳ ben Ya'ḳub Obadiah Abu 'Isa al-Isfahani of Ispahan
Serene (Sherini, Sheria, Serenus, Zonoria, Saüra) (c. 720)
David Alroy or Alrui (c. 1160)
Abraham Abulafia (b. 1240)
Nissim ben Abraham (c. 1295) active in Avila.
Moses Botarel of Cisneros (c. 1413)
Asher Lemmlein (1502) a German near Venice.
David Reuveni and Solomon Molko early sixteenth century.
Isaac Luria (or, Yitzhak Luria) (1534-1572), noted Kabbalist
Hayim Vital (1542-1620)
Sabbatai Zevi (alternative spellings: Shabbetai, Sabbetai; Tvi, Tzvi) (1626-1676)
Barukhia Russo (Osman Baba), succesor of Sabbatai Zevi.
Miguel (Abraham) Cardoso (b. 1630)
Mordecai Mokiaḥ ("the Rebuker") of Eisenstadt (active 1678-1683)
Jacob Querido (d. 1690), said to be the reincarnation of Shabbetai Zevi.
Israel ben Eliezer (1698-1760), also known as the Ba'al Shem Tov and founder of the Hasidism movement.
Löbele Prossnitz (Joseph ben Jacob), early eighteenth century
Jacob Joseph Frank (1726-1791), founder of the Frankist movement.
R. Nachman of Bratslav early (1772-1811)
Rebbe Menachem Mendel Schneerson (1902-1994)

It keeps going on and on. You CHOSE to believe Jesus was the Messiah.

Teresh

Just a comment on the Wikipedia article in question... I don't think Rabbi Israel ben Eliezer or Rabbi Yitzhak Luria ever claimed to be the Messiah, though it's undeniable that both had a profound impact on Judaism. Israel ben Eliezer brought us Chassidism, Luria was easily the most influential Kabbalist ever.

sculleywr

Nice, but now do a little research on them and tell me how many fulfill the prophecy that he would be born in Bethlehem, and then find how many of those were crucified.

netrox

You can dispute those names on Wikipedia; Wikipedia depends on people who are quite knowledgable and have facts.

netrox

Where is the prophecy that Jesus will be born in Bethlehem? If you're talking about
Micah 5:2, it has nothing to do with Jesus. You were just being selective and taking it out of context to support your belief. Read the whole chapter.

sculleywr

United monarchy? Never even heard of that one.

Pharisees, Saducees, and any of the other ones never believed it. As it says in Ecclesiastes, 'asah 'asah chadash shemesh, or, The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
If its true, it isn't new. If its new, it isn't true. Your belief is new, and, by the scriptures, not true.

recently.

No, big whales existed back then too. However, When the prophecy is being fulfilled, it is a prophecy. Lets see, that vision included prophecies of the Medes and Persians, the Greeks, The Romans, and the antichrist.

Ok, then tell me, Mark was meant as a story of Christ's life, death, and ressurection. However, It includes a prophecy of the destruction of the temple. Genesis was originally meant to document the early history of the world and the patriarchs. It still has prophecies. Several concerning the messiah. God Himself promised that the Messiah would be of the "woman's seed."

Then they are not to be part of the Bible. PERIOD. That is a lie from hell. Daniel was a prophet. He had visions that were divinely inspired. There is no book in the Bible that was not inspired by God Himself coming upon the person or, in the case of the New Testament, filling the person.

Ha, oh, and don't forget that God will cause a person to jump over the moon. Look, be serious, the world will take this, and other beliefs like it, as a reason to make a worldwide religion.

Well, unless you haven't read the news lately, there is no denial of it's being built. Here are the headlines today:

Seattle Times. The end of the world is near to their hearts. "Conversely, some Jewish groups in Jerusalem hope to clear the path for their own messiah by rebuilding a temple on a site occupied by one of Islam's holiest shrines.

Artisans have re-created priestly robes of white linen, gem-studded breastplates, silver trumpets and solid-gold menorahs to be used in the Holy Temple — along with two 6 ½-ton marble cornerstones for the building's foundation.

Tell me, what does this look like? To me, it looks like they are all ready

True it is, and being sounded in the Jewish communities in Florida and Tennessee. This is a perfect entrance for the antichrist.

hottiedeafboi

True, not entire Bible is prophetic, its general and importantly there are prophetic in the mixed. Yes, what's been prophesied for new world order is in progress and what's happening in Israel its also fulfilled in some and more to come. What we see today in the progress and time is getting closer of the end times. Jewish does still waiting for Meesiah rule by thought of political what been prophesied in the old just like disciples and disciples now getting what Jesus meant not by world power as they thought it was. And some jews still think that's what's all about, that imply new world order and one religion. This will be happening during Great Tribulation.

hottiedeafboi

Another thing, many jewish couldn't get the idea of God's pattern and step by step of the progression of Eternal Glory to be with Him. Many jews focus on material or world's view and political, which prophetic isn't talking about. As a pattern what God planned, when Jesus gave up all His Glory to descend to become like us thru virgin Mary. He was born to die to take our place. Sacrificial Lamb, not come to become world leader as some jewish thought and even that's what disciple thought also. The point is His blood to cover our sins, bec noone can see God without blood covered, bec sin (position of Adam- passed down to us) which lead death, God planned perfectly and jewish did not understand His saying about the Temple and believe it or not, religious leader knew what He meant and during Christ death, the tomb been sealed. But still God more powerful to roll the stone away and soldiers witnessed then later He ascended whiile 500 has winess, and not all believed. That's when the pattern for us to have a choice and that's when mens decision either reject or receive and that's when Great Tribulation will begin when people refusal just like people refusal against Noah.

netrox

Well, God promised no more of that after he brought flood. He promised no more curses. He promised he'll never destroy living things. He promised there will be spring everyday. (Gen 8:21-22)

Unfortunately, God broke his promise and caused destruction. God kept breaking his promises throughout the Old Testament.

Should I believe in someone who breaks his promises? No.

Teresh

[QUOTE=sculleywr]United monarchy? Never even heard of that one.[/QIPTE]

Then you need to brush up on your Jewish history. The United Monarchy was the time when Eretz Yisrael was united under one government: David's monarchy.

As a Christian, it's easy for you to make up things about what Jews believe because you don't want to accept the fact that you don't know what you're talking about. That doesn't make you correct, it just makes you a liar.

Jesus was new once. I guess he's false too? Again, you seem to enjoy making stuff up in order to explain your beliefs. You think there's a massive conspiracy when there is in fact simple logic. You think logic is evil, so you assume that there must be more to it.


What's to say they did? Were you there then? Maybe, just maybe, there were no big whales back then... Maybe Moby Dick should be canonised then?

Something isn't a prophecy if it's not divinely inspired. Daniel and Psalms are not divinely inspired. Therefore, they are not considered to be prophetic.


Mark wasn't written until AFTER the Temple was destroyed. Even if it is the literal Word of God, it's not a prophecy unless it comes before the event actually happens.

Genesis is also part of the Torah which is considered (at least in traditional Judaism) to be the literal Word of God.

That's the Christian idea, but it was never held in Judaism. You're welcome to interpret the text any way you want, but that doesn't make you right.

Considering you're the one that thinks Jesus (a very long-dead guy) will come down and bring all good people up to heaven and slaughter all of the wicked and cast them into the lake of fire, traditional Jewish eschatological beliefs aren't really any more far-fetched than the Christian ones.

I don't hold the traditional belief, though, so I'm not the one to discuss that in depth with.

There's a lot of denial of its being built: It isn't. How much of an idiot are you? The Temple is *NOT* being built.

It looks like someone wants the Temple to be rebuilt. We knew that already. That said, we also know that they comprise only a very small perctange (about 3%) of the world Jewish population and that the State of Israel will not allow them to do that.

Source?

hottiedeafboi

Yeah, I get your point. But God didn't break His promise. His promise was there will be no flood. This one is not about the flood, as Jesus described, this coming judgement is worse than anything in history. What God promised that will not bring flood to destroy living things again. But this isn't going to be flood. Its worse.

hottiedeafboi

Well netrox, there is so much of your denials. And what you are saying his source is wrong and your is right and did you know there are so many evidence of the source and you know its been going on since after Jesus death of this dispute.

sculleywr

Never saw that one in the Bible. Is that First or Second Opinions?

Sorry, but not even Jewish histories show the belief until the second millenium. NO credible historian sees that as true.

Jesus isn't new. HE fulfilled 300 prophecies, a lot of which he had no control over, such as, place of birth, the amount of money for his denial, and even the date of his birth (Daniel's prophetic vision about the 70 sevens.). A prophecied event is not new.


Then let us see, without the tanakh, you have nothing that is divinely inspired. That means that there is definitely a question of where Israel existed. Whether Israel was truly in captivity, we have no trustworthy record of Elijah, Elisha, and the other prophets.


Here are what the sources say:

Usually dated between 60 and 80...Two papyrologists, Fr. Jose O'Callaghan and Carsten Peter Thiede, have proposed that lettering on a postage stamp-sized papyrus fragment found in a cave at Qumran, 7Q5, represents a fragment of Mark Mark 6:52-53; thus they assert that the present gospel was written and distributed prior to 68.

It doesn't look good.

ANd God said that the Messiah would be of the woman's seed. Jesus fulfilled that one, being the only born to a virgin.

I am sorry, but it is blasphemy to say that the tanakh is not inspired. It was written by prophets.

You don't even hold the scriptural belief.

I said it was being prepared. Get your words right. PRiestly garments, cornerstones, all the way down to the cups for the temple. Why get all this if you aren't going to eventually build the temple? I trust the newspapers over you.

They already are. Why haven't they been arrested? They have been working for the last ten years!

The source I gave you for the news. It is mentioned in the same news report that reported the preparations of the temple.

sculleywr

Incorrect. He promised he would not use water to destroy the earth. Nothing else.

authentic

The discussion about the religion never stops.

__________________

Maria

The discussion about religion should keep goin'. I find their comments/statements very interestin'. I enjoy readin' their posts.

authentic

I never tell them to stop talking about the religion. I am just saying that the discussion itself would never stop.

__________________

Teresh

It's neither. The United Monarchy is what that period is called in retrospect.

And yet you can't cite any sources... When it's established you have little real knowledge of Judaism you can't just say things like they're true, you need to back them up.

That requires the belief in something I don't consider to be valid--Christian scripture.

We've also already established that the vast majority of the "prophecies" you claim he fulfilled weren't prophecies, are extremely vague, and/or could have been accomplished by anyone.

Only part of it is divinely inspired.

Cite.

All men (and women) are born of women. Your interpretation is a very wide stretch. I can tell you're getting a bit desperate here as you've abandoned your original argument.

The Law was revealed to Moses at Mt. Sinai. It was not written down until quite a bit later, though.

Nevi'im were written by the prophets.

The K'tuvim were written by oridinary people. They are not the Word of God nor are they divinely inspired.

I'm not required to. I'm allowed to have my own beliefs.

Why make them? They want to build the Temple, yeah. That doesn't mean anyone is ever going to let them do it.

And if they were arrested, what would they be charged with? The most heinous crimes of pottery, masonry and goldsmithing? They will not get to build the Temple. That doesn't mean they have done anything illegal so far.

The article does not mention anyone claiming to be the Messiah. Did you actually read it or are you just making more stuff up?

hottiedeafboi

Wow, sculley, you have a good pointer and facts and sense in that. What a gift that God given you. Smile and tho, they think you missing the point as I see you didn't. Smile

sculleywr

You know, I have debated with several Jews, and you are different than all of them. All of them wanted to rebuild the temple, matter of fact, I have a hunch that you are part of the minority. Considering the fact that every Jew on Volconvo, Debatepolitics, and democracyforums is gunning against you, you are the minority of those that are outspoken.

I have my knowledge from debating with multiple Jews, doing a strong class of Old Testament Survey, including multiple readings of 1 Kings through 2 Chronicles, and from reading multiple books about Jews. To learn anymore, I would have to go to rabbi school. You are the ONLY Jew I have ever met that said flat out that the prophets were not inspired.

Ok, tell me, how can a man born in Egypt claim to be Messiah when the prophets say in Micah 5:2:
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

No, without the Tanakh, you cannot collaborate the Torah. Secular groups say that they could dismantle all messianic beliefs by showing that the scriptures are not inspired. The WHOLE Tanakh is, as it says in itself, "The Word of the LORD.

Joshua 3:9
And Joshua said unto the children of Israel, Come hither, and hear the words of the LORD your God.
1 Samuel 3:21
And the LORD appeared again in Shiloh: for the LORD revealed himself to Samuel in Shiloh by the word of the LORD.
1 Kings 2:4
That the LORD may continue his word which he spake concerning me, saying, If thy children take heed to their way, to walk before me in truth with all their heart and with all their soul, there shall not fail thee (said he) a man on the throne of Israel.
2 Kings 9:26
Surely I have seen yesterday the blood of Naboth, and the blood of his sons, saith the LORD; and I will requite thee in this plat, saith the LORD. Now therefore take and cast him into the plat of ground, according to the word of the LORD.
1 Chronicles 10:13
So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;


And Jewish law says that people are not to claim the word of the Lord unless divinely inspired. EVERY BOOK IN THE TANAKH CLAIMS THE WORD OF THE LORD. That mean that Jeremiah is a blasphemer?

wikipedia. And there are questions of whether or not Mark came from an even earlier source, which would place the original in the mid-30s. Again, debate.

But they always have the seed (genetics) of the man in them. Jesus was born of a virgin, and thus had none of Joseph's seed. And I haven't abandoned my original argument. I have streamlined it.

They were written by prophets. Jeremiah, who prophecied the final defeat of Judah. Daniel, who prophecied the conquest of the Medes and the Persians. You saying these men were normal? The gift of prophecy comes only with the spirit of the Lord.

Then don't claim to represent the majority of Jews. You are part of the minority. Nobody I have met has denied the inspiration of the Tanakh. That, and you contradicted yourself by bringing in the Micah prophecy. Here is my new argument to that. Since it is not inspired, it is not a prophecy, and that means that there is no prophecy about the kingdom of God. That means that there is no need for the Messiah to establish a kingdom. See the problem? It is a double standard you are holding.

7

All they need is money to buy the property they want to buy. They don't want the temple mount, they want to buy the Mount of Olives, and "redirect the Shekinah" to that site. They then want to build the temple there. And since they will have the property under their own name, the government will have no way to claim that it is illegal. Next, the antichrist comes in and uses it as a lever in the peace talks, causing HAMAS to agree with the Israelites not to attack them so long as they do not interfere with the building of the temple. This is the kind of perfect set up you wold only expect if God were involved with a prophecy.

If they were arrested for building the temple, would it be for the most heinous crime of building a worship center on their own property? :Rolls eyes: See the stupidity?

The article does not mention anyone claiming to be the Messiah. Did you actually read it or are you just making more stuff up?[/QUOTE]

No, it mentions the building in "Expectation of their own messiah..." How do you expect something you do not know will happen. Why weren't they trying to build it back when they were reinstated as a country.

Maria

Yeah, I know. I am just playin' with ya. ( Just to keep me occupied )

netrox

Sorry, I misread that one. God promised he won't destroy ALL (that keyword is overlooked on my part) creatures so with that fact, God promises it won't happen again no matter how evil people will become.

netrox

That has nothing to do with Jesus and Jesus failed that prophecy. He did NOT become a ruler of Israel.