Sorenson's closing for good. - Page 2

Sargeras · 08-07-2010, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dark

P

Apparently, u didnt gathering enough information before jump onto it. For your information, sorenoon arent only facing the impacts but purple, hawk, some other has to face it in different situations too.

Secondly, sorenson is failing at manage the business due to their overspending on thousand of centers and leeched so much interpreters out of the deaf community. That's flawed they made is THEIRS fault for greedy and attempted to generate so much minutes by planting more centers then more minutes they makes. Unfortunate....

With due respect, you have made assumptions that Sorenson opened too many centers, especially assuming they opened thousands of them. This is quite literally impossible and I would like to challenge you to produce evidence of this. Additionally, even if they are guilty of this, I'm certain they did it for the reason to garner more minutes to bill to FCC but as a direct result of this, it has effectively lowered the wait time so drastically that it's almost instanteous that you get ahold of an interpreter to make calls. This is the goal that was strived by Sorenson to bring functionally equalivent services to you.

Therefore, it is beyond my understanding of why you would be so angry at Sorenson for opening up centers to provide an direct need to the deaf community while they make some profit. Which brings me to my next point that I made in my first post, this is a business for profit. It seems to be of the greatest offense to you that a company is making a profit while providing functionally equalivent services to you. It is a mutual relationship and I, for one, do not mind this relationship. Additionally, it brings other side benefits to the deaf community, such as promoting innovation, creativity, and bringing additional services and features that aren't required of Sorenson or other VRS providers to provide since it is not part of the "Allowable cost" that FCC uses as a baseline to provide reimbursement for certain aspects required of the VRS Providers.

Allow me to expand on the "Allowable Cost" that FCC only accept and ignores the rest. FCC will only see and accept certain cost of the VRS Providers. For example, leases of centers, hiring and training interpreters, and few more. However, FCC does not consider the videophones devices, Research & Development, Service calls to install and/or repair VP, and much more as part of the "Allowable Cost." Therefore, when these new rates were proposed, it was not considering the ACTUAL cost of running a VRS company. These features, additional services, and such are coming out of the company's own pocket, meaning every single VRS Providers. Sorenson is one, if not only, of the very few VRS companies that actually developed a product and give it out for FREE, even free service calls.

With that said, I'm fairly certain that you can start understanding the distance that Sorenson and several other VRS Providers goes for the deaf community. Unfortunately, this doesn't matter to the FCC as they only require the bare minimum to adquately service the deaf community but Sorenson obviously wants to go that extra mile for the deaf community and on the side, be competitive with other VRS Providers, which does, again, promote innovation and creativity in the VRS field. This is the essence of Captalism and has lead to great inventions and improvements of our lives. If it wasn't for this, we would still be stuck with TTY.

If you want to start looking for negativity and feel the need to cast blames somewhere, Sorenson would be the wrong target as it has been consistently proven over and over that Sorenson has never defrauded FCC and when such rare occasion happened within Sorenson, it was dealt with swift action. This is supported by the documentation found on the fcc.gov website where you can actually count the documents of how many times each VRS companies have received complaints and penalties by FCC for various of violations. Additionally, I do not need to remind you of the fraudlent activity that were perpetuated by certain VRS Providers, which caused negative opinions and unwarranted backlash to be felt by all VRS Providers and by extension, the deaf community.

I implore you not to jump on the popular bandwagon and the cascading opinions of the masses but to actually step back and review the documents that are readily available to you. It will become clear to you that the popular opinions, which tends to be negative, aren't correct but far from the truth. It is the tendency of the people to find the negative data and run with it.

I hope you understand what I'm trying to convey. Although, allow me to say this, Sorenson isn't without fault and is not a saint but they have the best and cleanest record out of every single VRS Provider that have existed to this day. This speaks volumes, in my opinion.

posts from hell · 08-07-2010, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harris

What strong company can withstand a cut to revenue and on this magnitude and not nosedive in 2-3 months?

Many of them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harris

Sorenson gets paid less than their competition. And apparently some of their competition had to fudge their numbers to be profitable. What does that say?

Apparently you don't know about Sorenson's adding some frosting to their numbers as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harris

If Sorenson's owners paid to much for the company the last time it changed hands, then this rate cut could mean the end of Sorenson. Does that mean they are greedy? No, it means that they overpaid and now have to face the fact that their forecasts of what the FCC would do were way optimistic and now they can't pay their creditors.

Businessmen sometimes make bad judgement calls.

Exactly - Check out my reply to your next statement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harris

If Sorenson goes away, who is going to provide you service? Do you really think Sorenson's competitors will just sign you up all at once? Do you think they have that type of idle capacity? If so, you aren't thinking it through. You don't just snap your finger and take on Sorenson's user base.

I already knew that, check out this post I made yesterday afternoon.

Sorenson STILL laid off people after getting rates they wanted

posts from hell · 08-07-2010, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deaf4ever

That is why I start using Say Hey: "say-hey.tv". They also started web site at www.say-hey.com. good interpreters, friendly company. i have try a few others but like them best for now.

Yup, that's also the reason I use Convo

posts from hell · 08-07-2010, 02:28 PM

One question, Sargeras - Who are you?

Now, lemme read your long winded posts and get back to you.

yagazn · 08-07-2010, 02:28 PM

Closing for real? Does that mean no more sorenson VP?. It's impossible. Why "Sorenson's closing for good" thread?. That's absurd!.

posts from hell · 08-07-2010, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sargeras

It is most unfortunate that Sorenson was forced by the FCC to lay off employees. I do not blame Sorenson as they have consistently and on daily basis, fought with FCC. They've opened up their fiancial data to FCC to help them understand what are the necessary rate to help Sorenson survive and continue to provide superb services to the deaf community, much like the other VRS Providers as well.

Please show me that Sorenson ACTUALLY opened up their financial data to the FCC. Last I know, they were in court with their fancy lawyers trying not to show the FCC their data.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sargeras

The one thing you need to understand is that Sorenson is such a large company and well run, making Sorenson the most efficient VRS company. Therefore, logic dictates that it is in the FCC's best interest to work with Sorenson to save ratepayer money, which translates to Tier III rate. HOWEVER, at this present time, the course of action adopted by FCC has forced Sorenson to lay off employees and restructure their operations, which means that Sorenson could lose some customers to other VRS Provider. This is okay but here lies the problem...

The problem is that FCC most likely made a horrible mistake by paying more as there are no other VRS Providers that are Tier III, meaning they're either Tier I or II. Therefore, these Tier I and II VRS Providers are billing FCC for more money that forces FCC to pay MORE for these services, which they could have pay LESS if Sorenson didn't suffer a drastic cut in Tier III rate. If FCC goal was to save ratepayer money and be an efficient steward of the TRS funds, they are FAILING in this role.

Obviously you don't know how the tier system works.. It pays out by the amount of minutes that were billed for.

For example: If a certain VRS company did 1.2 million minutes in a month - They will be reimbursed for the tier I rate for the first 100k minutes, then the tier II rate for the next 900k minutes, then lastly Tier III rate for 1m on ward.

With this savings on the tierIII system, its pretty significant in the long term. 8million minutes by Sorenson in the Tier III rate monthly and cut by a dollar... That's $80-95 million dollars of savings per year for the tax payers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sargeras

Moreover, FCC still has FAILED to explain why Tier I and II didn't suffer more than a dollar cut in their rate while Tier III suffered an dollar and 10 cent rate cut. This appears as a intentional attack on Sorenson by FCC as Sorenson is the only known Tier III provider.

See above. Not an attack. Sorenson has shown that it is very efficient running a big service. That is the reason the FCC wanted to cut the prices down to 3.90 or so at first.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sargeras

Therefore, think about how FCC is "saving money" and being efficient with the TRS funds. Additionally, why is only Sorenson suffering the drastic cut in rate, when others VRS Providers don't have to suffer that drastic cut in their respective tier? Admittedly, FCC has some valid points but in this case, the points they make are far too few to the points that Sorenson makes.

See above. Why are you repeating?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sargeras

Lastly, do not cite the debt that Sorenson has accumulated or how much they paid their investors and such. This is a business for profit and Sorenson became the leading VRS Provider because of these business decision they made. Hence, none of you have the knowledge nor the understanding about Sorenson's finacial structure or debt load. Even FCC doesn't state that they have the full knowledge of their finacial structure as they cited Debtwire as their source about Sorenson's debt.

I cite how much they owed in the other thread because it called for it. In this thread do you see me saying they owe money? no. it's called business, you're right.
My stance is as a DEAF CONSUMER, in a DEAF COMMUNITY. It hurts me to see all these interpreters being let go so fast. Think about the impact on the deaf community that causes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sargeras

Just think about what FCC should be doing and what their role are supposed to be. They are failing in every aspect of their role to protect the VRS Industry.

I have thought long and hard, they are not failing. The chairman has told everyone that he wants the VRS to stay, hence the budgeting cuts.

Now onto your next post.

posts from hell · 08-07-2010, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sargeras

With due respect, you have made assumptions that Sorenson opened too many centers, especially assuming they opened thousands of them. This is quite literally impossible and I would like to challenge you to produce evidence of this. Additionally, even if they are guilty of this, I'm certain they did it for the reason to garner more minutes to bill to FCC but as a direct result of this, it has effectively lowered the wait time so drastically that it's almost instanteous that you get ahold of an interpreter to make calls. This is the goal that was strived by Sorenson to bring functionally equalivent services to you.

Smaller relay companies have a low waiting time as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sargeras

Therefore, it is beyond my understanding of why you would be so angry at Sorenson for opening up centers to provide an direct need to the deaf community while they make some profit. Which brings me to my next point that I made in my first post, this is a business for profit. It seems to be of the greatest offense to you that a company is making a profit while providing functionally equalivent services to you. It is a mutual relationship and I, for one, do not mind this relationship. Additionally, it brings other side benefits to the deaf community, such as promoting innovation, creativity, and bringing additional services and features that aren't required of Sorenson or other VRS providers to provide since it is not part of the "Allowable cost" that FCC uses as a baseline to provide reimbursement for certain aspects required of the VRS Providers.

Their treatment to their interpreters, their treatment to the deaf community is what I am angry about. Read again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sargeras

Allow me to expand on the "Allowable Cost" that FCC only accept and ignores the rest. FCC will only see and accept certain cost of the VRS Providers. For example, leases of centers, hiring and training interpreters, and few more. However, FCC does not consider the videophones devices, Research & Development, Service calls to install and/or repair VP, and much more as part of the "Allowable Cost." Therefore, when these new rates were proposed, it was not considering the ACTUAL cost of running a VRS company. These features, additional services, and such are coming out of the company's own pocket, meaning every single VRS Providers. Sorenson is one, if not only, of the very few VRS companies that actually developed a product and give it out for FREE, even free service calls.

Do you expect Sprint, AT&T, QWest to pay for your cell phone? Your land line phone itself? No. FCC doesnt pay for that stuff.

(CSDVrs developed the vp100) and Sorenson bought the idea, with investors and such (think about this.) Here we are, a few years later, They're engulfed in debt because of this thing they did for free (with investor's money) and now screwing over the community and tax payers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sargeras

With that said, I'm fairly certain that you can start understanding the distance that Sorenson and several other VRS Providers goes for the deaf community. Unfortunately, this doesn't matter to the FCC as they only require the bare minimum to adquately service the deaf community but Sorenson obviously wants to go that extra mile for the deaf community and on the side, be competitive with other VRS Providers, which does, again, promote innovation and creativity in the VRS field. This is the essence of Captalism and has lead to great inventions and improvements of our lives. If it wasn't for this, we would still be stuck with TTY.

What is the extra mile?

If it wasnt for sorenson - We still would have CSDVrs as the big dog in the house.

Many other VRS companies goes beyond the FCC requirements, not only Sorenson. (Although i don't see it..)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sargeras

If you want to start looking for negativity and feel the need to cast blames somewhere, Sorenson would be the wrong target as it has been consistently proven over and over that Sorenson has never defrauded FCC and when such rare occasion happened within Sorenson, it was dealt with swift action. This is supported by the documentation found on the fcc.gov website where you can actually count the documents of how many times each VRS companies have received complaints and penalties by FCC for various of violations. Additionally, I do not need to remind you of the fraudlent activity that were perpetuated by certain VRS Providers, which caused negative opinions and unwarranted backlash to be felt by all VRS Providers and by extension, the deaf community.

I'd love for you to produce evidence of them PROVING that they have not defrauding the FCC.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sargeras

I implore you not to jump on the popular bandwagon and the cascading opinions of the masses but to actually step back and review the documents that are readily available to you. It will become clear to you that the popular opinions, which tends to be negative, aren't correct but far from the truth. It is the tendency of the people to find the negative data and run with it.

Your thinking aren't correct either. You also have not addressed what I have been trying to say here. Which leads me to my previous question to you, who are you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sargeras

I hope you understand what I'm trying to convey. Although, allow me to say this, Sorenson isn't without fault and is not a saint but they have the best and cleanest record out of every single VRS Provider that have existed to this day. This speaks volumes, in my opinion.

Interesting conflict of statement: "Sorenson isn't without fault and is not a saint but they have the best and cleanest record out of every single VRS Provider that have existed to this day."

Which is it, "Best and cleanest record" or "Sorenson isn't without fault and is not a saint"....

NOW that speaks volumes in my opinion.

Oh, and I'll give you one VRS company off my head that has a much cleaner track record: Convo Relay. (there are others as well.... but I don't know much about their business side yet.)

Whew.

Sargeras · 08-07-2010, 03:04 PM

Well, at this point, it is moot to argue with you as your history about the development of VP-100 and video compression is incorrect. Additionally, it has become very clear that you are advocating for Convo and you are doing your best to put lots of negativity toward to any VRS Providers.

I am clearly interested in seeing Sorenson to survive because unlike Convo, Sorenson developed their own products and have repaid to FCC the defraudment that was caught by Sorenson. Additionally, they've spent far more than any other VRS Providers to provide services, free videophone, and such to the deaf community.

At any rate, it doesn't matter who I am as I'm clearly trying to be objective and at the same time, state that I do not think Sorenson is without fault as none of them are but I do look at their record and how often the mistakes are for each VRS Provider. Fortunately for Sorenson, this is minimal. As well, I am not nitpicking people's word apart and trying to find contradictions so that it can be quickly discredited. Unlike most posters here, my statements are actually backed up by public records and testimonies of actual VRS workers.

Best of luck to your company, Convo and Sorenson even stated that they welcome the competition as it promotes the innovation and creativity for all of VRS Providers.

Just one last thing, I clearly understand how the tier system works but what you seem to miss is that Purple or other VRS Providers do not have the capacity to handle the estimated 8 million minutes that is handled by Sorenson. Therefore, to handle these estimated 8 million minutes, we need far more staff, more equipments, and centers to handle that, which increases the cost of operation. Therefore, to cut the Tier III rate so drastically, it affects Sorenson's ability to operate all centers and retain the staff necessary as the 8 million minutes were generated from the rates given to the Tier III Providers. This is common sense as a Tier I or II company couldn't even begin to absorb the minutes that Sorenson handles if Sorenson were to unexpectedly shut down without notice. In fact, it would cause an domino effect on all VRS companies as they would have to compensate for the loss of Sorenson by growing as big as them then have problems handling the low rate for Tier III as the necessary manpower and equipment needed to handle that much. Plus, if Sorenson shuts down, then every single VP-200 would die with Sorenson as it will not work anymore and it will be permanently disabled, which means that Convo and other VRS Providers that have no product will suddenly be without any VP-200 products to use for the interpreters that these Providers have. Chew on that for a little bit.

**Jiro** · 08-07-2010, 03:18 PM

hmm... you know all these inside information that's not available to public. you know this... how?

posts from hell · 08-07-2010, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sargeras

Well, at this point, it is moot to argue with you as your history about the development of VP-100 and video compression is incorrect. Additionally, it has become very clear that you are advocating for Convo and you are doing your best to put lots of negativity toward to any VRS Providers.

Not "ANY vrs providers" You dont see me putting people down until they call for it.

I think we can have a discussion on the development of the VP-100. I most likely can prove that I am correct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sargeras

I am clearly interested in seeing Sorenson to survive because unlike Convo, Sorenson developed their own products and have repaid to FCC the defraudment that was caught by Sorenson. Additionally, they've spent far more than any other VRS Providers to provide services, free videophone, and such to the deaf community.

What "such to the deaf community."??? They don't invest into ASL, They dont protect their interpreters... They decide that fancy eats are the way of life. (i've been to a few of them..)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sargeras

At any rate, it doesn't matter who I am as I'm clearly trying to be objective and at the same time, state that I do not think Sorenson is without fault as none of them are but I do look at their record and how often the mistakes are for each VRS Provider. Fortunately for Sorenson, this is minimal. As well, I am not nitpicking people's word apart and trying to find contradictions so that it can be quickly discredited. Unlike most posters here, my statements are actually backed up by public records and testimonies of actual VRS workers.

You said "best and cleanest record".... I find it comical that Sorenson "Caught" their defraudment. They most likely knew it all along. Again, They aren't showing their books to the FCC for a reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sargeras

Best of luck to your company, Convo and Sorenson even stated that they welcome the competition as it promotes the innovation and creativity for all of VRS Providers.

First: It's not my company. It is the service I use currently. I know they all welcome competition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sargeras

Just one last thing, I clearly understand how the tier system works but what you seem to miss is that Purple or other VRS Providers do not have the capacity to handle the estimated 8 million minutes that is handled by Sorenson. Therefore, to handle these estimated 8 million minutes, we need far more staff, more equipments, and centers to handle that, which increases the cost of operation. Therefore, to cut the Tier III rate so drastically, it affects Sorenson's ability to operate all centers and retain the staff necessary as the 8 million minutes were generated from the rates given to the Tier III Providers. This is common sense as a Tier I or II company couldn't even begin to absorb the minutes that Sorenson handles if Sorenson were to unexpectedly shut down without notice. In fact, it would cause an domino effect on all VRS companies as they would have to compensate for the loss of Sorenson by growing as big as them then have problems handling the low rate for Tier III as the necessary manpower and equipment needed to handle that much. Plus, if Sorenson shuts down, then every single VP-200 would die with Sorenson as it will not work anymore and it will be permanently disabled, which means that Convo and other VRS Providers that have no product will suddenly be without any VP-200 products to use for the interpreters that these Providers have. Chew on that for a little bit.

If you knew, why even bother trying to blur it and saying that the tier system is FAILING with caps.... In the long term it will save taxpayers money.

And for that "chewing" read this, a post I made yesterday...
Sorenson STILL laid off people after getting rates they wanted

More reasons for my beef that I am chewing on.

LakeTahoe · 08-07-2010, 03:20 PM

I wondered the same thing! Ummm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

hmm... you know all these inside information that's not available to public. you know this... how?

**Dismal Shadow** · 08-07-2010, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

hmm... you know all these inside information that's not available to public. you know this... how?

I am curious to know as well...

Sargeras · 08-07-2010, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

hmm... you know all these inside information that's not available to public. you know this... how?

What inside information? Sorenson stated that if Sorenson goes bankrupt to the 3.89 rate then it would impact the rest of VRS industry. Plus other people are saying 8 million minutes average, so I used that number but I have no idea how the others got this.

Additionally, it would make sense if sorenson shut down, other vrs providers have to absorb all these customers and try to service their needs right? As for the defraudment, FCC has the record of every complaint and actions with all vrs providers on their website.

All these information is available... I'm not sure what inside information there are. Can you clear that up for me?

**sequoias** · 08-07-2010, 05:00 PM

Yeah, I remember CSDVRS having their silver D-link VP. I don't know who came up with VP for the deaf idea...Sorenson or CSDVRS....sometimes companies brag for themselves.

**SneakerNet** · 08-07-2010, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

hmm... you know all these inside information that's not available to public. you know this... how?

Jiro, many companies do not require to show all the inside information that is not available to public. If we pay taxes, and company use our taxes, then it's reasonable to see what they are spending. VRS is not using our taxes. FCC collect money from our electrionic communication billing. Then FCC split up the funding to some of the companies and for FCC itself. It's FCC decision that need to collect info from the company. Not us.

Now, how would you feel if you want to show everyone in public what you spend? How much did you earn? and how much did you spend on bills? What did you spend on medical bills? and such. It's pretty private right? I'm sure you will refuse to show everyone your "inside information". Same way with the company itself except if company did mismanage the funding because of our tax dollars we spend. We have a right to know what is going on.

I don't know if that what you mean?

posts from hell · 08-07-2010, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SneakerNet

Jiro, many companies do not require to show all the inside information that is not available to public. If we pay taxes, and company use our taxes, then it's reasonable to see what they are spending. VRS is not using our taxes. FCC collect money from our electrionic communication billing. Then FCC split up the funding to some of the companies and for FCC itself. It's FCC decision that need to collect info from the company. Not us.

Now, how would you feel if you want to show everyone in public what you spend? How much did you earn? and how much did you spend on bills? What did you spend on medical bills? and such. It's pretty private right? I'm sure you will refuse to show everyone your "inside information". Same way with the company itself except if company did mismanage the funding because of our tax dollars we spend. We have a right to know what is going on.

I don't know if that what you mean?

All that is public information. You can FOIA it.

posts from hell · 08-07-2010, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sargeras

What inside information? Sorenson stated that if Sorenson goes bankrupt to the 3.89 rate then it would impact the rest of VRS industry. Plus other people are saying 8 million minutes average, so I used that number but I have no idea how the others got this.

Additionally, it would make sense if sorenson shut down, other vrs providers have to absorb all these customers and try to service their needs right? As for the defraudment, FCC has the record of every complaint and actions with all vrs providers on their website.

All these information is available... I'm not sure what inside information there are. Can you clear that up for me?

You can start by telling us all how you "know" for a fact that Sorenson made the VP-100 from start to end.

Oh, and how Sorenson "caught their fraudulent actions"...

**Jiro** · 08-07-2010, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SneakerNet

Jiro, many companies do not require to show all the inside information that is not available to public. If we pay taxes, and company use our taxes, then it's reasonable to see what they are spending. VRS is not using our taxes. FCC collect money from our electrionic communication billing. Then FCC split up the funding to some of the companies and for FCC itself. It's FCC decision that need to collect info from the company. Not us.

Now, how would you feel if you want to show everyone in public what you spend? How much did you earn? and how much did you spend on bills? What did you spend on medical bills? and such. It's pretty private right? I'm sure you will refuse to show everyone your "inside information". Same way with the company itself except if company did mismanage the funding because of our tax dollars we spend. We have a right to know what is going on.

I don't know if that what you mean?

First of all - I earn my salary. I spend with my own salary. That is private. I am not under obligation to reveal it to public. But if I earn from taxpayers' money and spend with taxpayers' money.... that is public. The law requires public officials to reveal their financial information to public. That's why the President of United States reveals his income tax.

The corporation is not required to reveal its internal matter like memo, corporate secret, etc. but it is required to reveal its financial data.

posts from hell · 08-07-2010, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

First of all - I earn my salary. I spend with my own salary. That is private. I am not under obligation to reveal it to public. But if I earn from taxpayers' money and spend with taxpayers' money.... that is public. The law requires public officials to reveal their financial information to public. That's why the President of United States reveals his income tax.

The corporation is not required to reveal its internal matter like memo, corporate secret, etc. but it is required to reveal its financial data.

nicely said.

Sargeras · 08-07-2010, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by posts from hell

You can start by telling us all how you "know" for a fact that Sorenson made the VP-100 from start to end.

Oh, and how Sorenson "caught their fraudulent actions"...

Well, I'm pretty certain that CDVRS didn't make that because nobody says that to anyone. I mostly heard from everyone and Sorenson Trainers that the VP-100 was DLink product but Sorenson brought the model then started from there. I don't think I said that Sorenson made it but they owned that model or something.

As for the fraudulent actions, I read this somewhere on myvrs.org and maybe ed telecom alert. I cannot remember but I do also remember hearing others reciting it. As well, FCC posted records and if you know how to find it, it can be found. THey have millions of records. Let me see if I can find these information.

I'm just wondering how my logic of deducing how the tier rates impacts the company and plus DieHardBiker mentioned about meeting the hold time and etc if Sorenson was to shut down. So that made sense and I expanded on it and thought about how Sorenson could handle it.

That's all.

**Jiro** · 08-07-2010, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by posts from hell

nicely said.

plus - private corporations are not under obligation to reveal its financial data but public corporations do.

That's why you see "Investors" or "Investor Relation" in every public corporation's website - as required by law.

**SneakerNet** · 08-07-2010, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

First of all - I earn my salary. I spend with my own salary. That is private. I am not under obligation to reveal it to public. But if I earn from taxpayers' money and spend with taxpayers' money.... that is public. The law requires public officials to reveal their financial information to public. That's why the President of United States reveals his income tax.

The corporation is not required to reveal its internal matter like memo, corporate secret, etc. but it is required to reveal its financial data.

Yes, I can understand that but the differences between Tax dollars and FCC collection from bills is that Taxes is base on how much we earn and how much we have to pay taxes whereas FCC only collect small percentage of how much "we" purchase the electronic stuff. You know what I mean? If you did not buy any electronic stuff.. No phone, no internet, no cable TV... no Palm Pre..<grin> nothing.. you don't have to pay any cents to FCC correct? But you will always have to pay taxes....because of your income or if you win a lottery, you have to pay taxes.

So, yes of course we are paying huge amount of taxes and hope the government use the money properly.. not like spending new $5000 public toilet seat each... we will be outrage on that. That is public info.. you know?

**Jiro** · 08-07-2010, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SneakerNet

Yes, I can understand that but the differences between Tax dollars and FCC collection from bills is that Taxes is base on how much we earn and how much we have to pay taxes whereas FCC only collect small percentage of how much "we" purchase the electronic stuff. You know what I mean? If you did not buy any electronic stuff.. No phone, no internet, no cable TV... no Palm Pre..<grin> nothing.. you don't have to pay any cents to FCC correct? But you will always have to pay taxes....because of your income or if you win a lottery, you have to pay taxes.

So, yes of course we are paying huge amount of taxes and hope the government use the money properly.. not like spending new $5000 public toilet seat each... we will be outrage on that. That is public info.. you know?

right.... so your point is?

Excedio · 08-07-2010, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sargeras

Well, I'm pretty certain that CDVRS didn't make that because nobody says that to anyone. I mostly heard from everyone and Sorenson Trainers that the VP-100 was DLink product but Sorenson brought the model then started from there. I don't think I said that Sorenson made it but they owned that model or something.

As for the fraudulent actions, I read this somewhere on myvrs.org and maybe ed telecom alert. I cannot remember but I do also remember hearing others reciting it. As well, FCC posted records and if you know how to find it, it can be found. THey have millions of records. Let me see if I can find these information.

I'm just wondering how my logic of deducing how the tier rates impacts the company and plus DieHardBiker mentioned about meeting the hold time and etc if Sorenson was to shut down. So that made sense and I expanded on it and thought about how Sorenson could handle it.

That's all.

My favorite part is where you make all these long-winded posts and make yourself out to know all of this information. Then tell us that you got your information from "hearing others reciting it." Priceless.

My brother's friend's sister's roommate's verterinarian's wife met Batman too. I used pretty much the same logic.

TechBill · 08-07-2010, 05:55 PM

You have to remember it not taxpayer money that pay for the relay services, it percentage collected billed to customers by thier phone companies which goes to the relay services so not every taxpayers own a phone or cell phone anyway.

I read some of his posts and he does make one good vaild point that i caught which is if Sorenson closes down then all the VP200 units are disabled and how could anyone make calls using other competitor VRS providers since I am pretty sure other competitor greatly depends on Deaf customer using VP200 to call to their own VRS

Unless Deaf customer already have purchase competor products to make VRS calls or download a free software and purchase a web cam or a laptop with a built in webcam to go with it.

And I cannot image any other smaller competitior able to snatch up all Sorenson customers replacing the VP200 unless they charge Deaf customer for products or find investors to pay for it.

Do convo have their own products? If Sorenson shut down and VP200 is disbaled, wouldn't Convo also lose lots of customers too? Same for an other competitors that depend on VP200 for their Deaf customers to use their service?

.

Excedio · 08-07-2010, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TechBill

Do convo have their own products? If Sorenson shut down and VP200 is disbaled, wouldn't Convo also lose lots cusomter too? Same for an other competitors that depend on VP200 for their Deaf customers to use their service?

No.

Not all of their customers. Just many, if not, most of them. You can call Convo, or any other VRS provider, from any VP. Not just the VP-200.

**Dismal Shadow** · 08-07-2010, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TechBill

Do convo have their own products? If Sorenson shut down and VP200 is disbaled, wouldn't Convo also lose lots of customers too? Same for an other competitors that depend on VP200 for their Deaf customers to use their service?

I don't think Sorenson can disable VP200 because customers own the device since it was given to them for free otherwise Sorenson would be sued if they did. What's wrong with using other service on VP other than Sorenson?

EDIT: Ninja'd by Excedio

Excedio · 08-07-2010, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dismal Shadow

I don't think Sorenson can disable VP200 because customers own the device since it was given to them for free otherwise Sorenson would be sued if they did. What's wrong with using other service on VP other than Sorenson?

You do not own your VP-200. You own the right to use it and Sorenson retains the right to remove it from your home.

**Dismal Shadow** · 08-07-2010, 06:07 PM

Oh really? Removed based on what? Not using their service? God knows how many deaf people out there with VP-200...

**SneakerNet** · 08-07-2010, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

right.... so your point is?

The point is that FCC have to reveal the information of what they see or what they collect or what FCC spend and such, not the private company. If FCC ask for more info to that private company, then we have a right to ask FCC of what they gather the info. Or if we pressure the FCC to force them to get info from the private companies.

Those kind of things..... Remember, how did we find out about Viable did fraudulant actions? FCC of course.... because FCC sent FBI to investigate. Right?

The only time if someone inside of that company did something wrong and one of the employee leaked the info to someone and the info hell break loose, then we have a right to get "inside info" to that company.

08-07-2010, 03:18 PM	#39 (permalink)
Jiro Aparecium Deletrius Legil Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: The Soprano State Posts: 60,603	hmm... you know all these inside information that's not available to public. you know this... how? __________________ - Don't forget to buy Jiro's Special Edition Sunglasses for $19.95

08-07-2010, 06:07 PM	#59 (permalink)
Dismal Shadow Premium Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Ivalice Posts: 3,476	Oh really? Removed based on what? Not using their service? God knows how many deaf people out there with VP-200... __________________ Atheism in the name of God is an abandonment of all religious beliefs … giving up the attempt to make sense of the world in terms of any fixed idea or intellectual system. It is becoming again as a child and laying oneself open to reality as it is actually and directly felt, experiencing it without trying to categorize, identify or name it. – Alan Watts

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08-07-2010, 02:28 PM	#34 (permalink)
posts from hell Registered User Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 9,434	One question, Sargeras - Who are you? Now, lemme read your long winded posts and get back to you.

08-07-2010, 02:28 PM	#35 (permalink)
yagazn Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: Out of nowhere.... Posts: 2,965	Closing for real? Does that mean no more sorenson VP?. It's impossible. Why "Sorenson's closing for good" thread?. That's absurd!.

08-07-2010, 03:04 PM	#38 (permalink)
Sargeras Registered User Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 9	Well, at this point, it is moot to argue with you as your history about the development of VP-100 and video compression is incorrect. Additionally, it has become very clear that you are advocating for Convo and you are doing your best to put lots of negativity toward to any VRS Providers. I am clearly interested in seeing Sorenson to survive because unlike Convo, Sorenson developed their own products and have repaid to FCC the defraudment that was caught by Sorenson. Additionally, they've spent far more than any other VRS Providers to provide services, free videophone, and such to the deaf community. At any rate, it doesn't matter who I am as I'm clearly trying to be objective and at the same time, state that I do not think Sorenson is without fault as none of them are but I do look at their record and how often the mistakes are for each VRS Provider. Fortunately for Sorenson, this is minimal. As well, I am not nitpicking people's word apart and trying to find contradictions so that it can be quickly discredited. Unlike most posters here, my statements are actually backed up by public records and testimonies of actual VRS workers. Best of luck to your company, Convo and Sorenson even stated that they welcome the competition as it promotes the innovation and creativity for all of VRS Providers. Just one last thing, I clearly understand how the tier system works but what you seem to miss is that Purple or other VRS Providers do not have the capacity to handle the estimated 8 million minutes that is handled by Sorenson. Therefore, to handle these estimated 8 million minutes, we need far more staff, more equipments, and centers to handle that, which increases the cost of operation. Therefore, to cut the Tier III rate so drastically, it affects Sorenson's ability to operate all centers and retain the staff necessary as the 8 million minutes were generated from the rates given to the Tier III Providers. This is common sense as a Tier I or II company couldn't even begin to absorb the minutes that Sorenson handles if Sorenson were to unexpectedly shut down without notice. In fact, it would cause an domino effect on all VRS companies as they would have to compensate for the loss of Sorenson by growing as big as them then have problems handling the low rate for Tier III as the necessary manpower and equipment needed to handle that much. Plus, if Sorenson shuts down, then every single VP-200 would die with Sorenson as it will not work anymore and it will be permanently disabled, which means that Convo and other VRS Providers that have no product will suddenly be without any VP-200 products to use for the interpreters that these Providers have. Chew on that for a little bit.

08-07-2010, 05:00 PM	#44 (permalink)
sequoias Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Iowa, wind generation capital Posts: 21,895	Yeah, I remember CSDVRS having their silver D-link VP. I don't know who came up with VP for the deaf idea...Sorenson or CSDVRS....sometimes companies brag for themselves.

08-07-2010, 05:55 PM	#55 (permalink)
TechBill Registered User Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,092	You have to remember it not taxpayer money that pay for the relay services, it percentage collected billed to customers by thier phone companies which goes to the relay services so not every taxpayers own a phone or cell phone anyway. I read some of his posts and he does make one good vaild point that i caught which is if Sorenson closes down then all the VP200 units are disabled and how could anyone make calls using other competitor VRS providers since I am pretty sure other competitor greatly depends on Deaf customer using VP200 to call to their own VRS Unless Deaf customer already have purchase competor products to make VRS calls or download a free software and purchase a web cam or a laptop with a built in webcam to go with it. And I cannot image any other smaller competitior able to snatch up all Sorenson customers replacing the VP200 unless they charge Deaf customer for products or find investors to pay for it. Do convo have their own products? If Sorenson shut down and VP200 is disbaled, wouldn't Convo also lose lots of customers too? Same for an other competitors that depend on VP200 for their Deaf customers to use their service? .