Ip Relay Warning

ScamBuster · 02-03-2004, 05:15 AM

As a Relay Operator I feel obligated to advise everyone in the Deaf Community what is happening in our Relay Centers that you may not be aware of. Have you ever called a business using Relay and been hung up on? Well let me explain part of the reason. All IP RELAY Centers (MCI, AT&T, SPRINT) are processing thousands of calls per week from West Africa to U.S. Businesses. We generally are on these calls for an hour at a time while numerous numbers are dialed so these West Africans attempt to order T-Shirts, Laptops, Athletic shoes, Sewing Machines, Inkjet cartridges (and the list goes on an on). These people calling are NOT deaf and even worse they are using STOLEN credit card information to purchase these items and have them shipped to West Africa before the business determines the fraud. These scammers are clogging up Relay center and keeping legitimate deaf users in queue while they use us to commit their crimes. Our companies tell us we can't do anything about it, that we must process the call and remain completely transparent because we can't possibly know if the call is legitimate or not and therefore we can not break confidentiality. BUT we can tell, usually before we even dial the first number. But even after it has become apparent because the caller uses multiple names and credit cards and addresses with different businesses we still are not permitted to end the call, report it or intervene in any way. We must continue to process the calls and assist the criminal. In the meantime you wait for a free operator to make a call. Many businesses are now refusing ALL calls from Relay because they have been ripped off for thousands and thousands of dollars via IP Relay and these scammers. I call out now to everyone in the Deaf Community to visit my Message Board as well. View the comments from other Relay Operators who took a job to service the deaf community and are now working 8 hours a day to service criminals. The telephone companies hide behind the confidentiality laws so they can receive the government cost recovery dollars and make millions at the expense of the Deaf community and the tax payers. Please post your comments on my message board. A LOT of the relay operators would like to see your input to this!!! Thank you!
http://ip_relay_scams.aimoo.com

Brian · 02-03-2004, 05:30 AM

Yeah, last week I was doing some research and it came up which got me curious to read through. I was going to post about this here and elsewhere but never got around to it. Thanks for sharing this with us.

Dennis · 02-03-2004, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScamBuster

The telephone companies hide behind the confidentiality laws so they can receive the government cost recovery dollars and make millions at the expense of the Deaf community and the tax payers.

That doesn't make any sense. If the businesses won't accept calls from the relay services, deaf people will no longer use 7-1-1 or any relay business. Then those companies lose their profits.

The telephone companies also lose their reputation as the kind of company to do business with. The loss of reputation can kill any company, look how hard WorldCom/MCI is struggling to untarnish it's name.

I bet the telephone companies are just as frustrated as you are, and are hampered by both the law and by the limitations of technology. After all, the internet is the great privacy screen, ain't it?

Cheri · 02-03-2004, 08:57 AM

oh Wow. I had no idea I used the Ip Relay all the time.. Now I got to watch myself...

Fly Free · 02-03-2004, 11:15 AM

i am well aware of that -- and i am also aware the relay operators really are unable to do anything due to confidentality -- but unless theyre given a search warrant for all recorded converstations in their computers is when they will give up the information in cooperation with the local/state police but yea scambuster is right -- they really just simply cannot do anything

bree · 02-03-2004, 11:27 AM

How about people being proactive? Like when you are on the relay trying to place a order, ask if there is another way to order without using the phone?
Or telling the business to ask for proof of id in some way (SS #, drivers license #, etc), and providing it?
I know it is a hassle, but if it becomes more difficult to do this scam, then the scam no longer will work.

Cheri · 02-03-2004, 01:17 PM

That is Why I have to watch myself I don't want to give out too much Personal about myself Knowing there are Scams everywhere.

Fly Free · 02-03-2004, 04:25 PM

yea i agree with u Cheri always best to be protective of ur IDing information as much as possible --

ive visited Scambuster's message boards and read some quite interesting posts by the Relay Operators themselves and i applaud them for trying their best in dealing with scams that occurs too often while also dealing with legit calls from deaf/speech impaired folks -- i found that some of the criminals just simply doesnt know HOW to use the relay right

a surefire giveaway!

using GA repetively and using "plz" instead of "please" or "pls" as is the usual standard in the deaf community on the TTYs or when calling via relay -- one example is: "plz call xxx-xxx-xxxx gagaga" was posted there

ScamBuster · 02-03-2004, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dennis

That doesn't make any sense. If the businesses won't accept calls from the relay services, deaf people will no longer use 7-1-1 or any relay business. Then those companies lose their profits.

The telephone companies also lose their reputation as the kind of company to do business with. The loss of reputation can kill any company, look how hard WorldCom/MCI is struggling to untarnish it's name.

I bet the telephone companies are just as frustrated as you are, and are hampered by both the law and by the limitations of technology. After all, the internet is the great privacy screen, ain't it?

Because the general public isn't aware of this they have nothing to fear yet, so long as the rake in the millions of dollars for this service. And yes, it is tarnishing their name, so it makes no sense to me. But I've spoke to upper management; they are not and don't intend to do anything proactively.

ScamBuster · 02-03-2004, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fly Free

i am well aware of that -- and i am also aware the relay operators really are unable to do anything due to confidentality -- but unless theyre given a search warrant for all recorded converstations in their computers is when they will give up the information in cooperation with the local/state police but yea scambuster is right -- they really just simply cannot do anything

No voice user or text is recorded or saved, ever!. Once you disconnect from Relay - State or IP, all information is gone forever! That's what makes it so confidential and why the scammers are using it.

ScamBuster · 02-03-2004, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bree

How about people being proactive? Like when you are on the relay trying to place a order, ask if there is another way to order without using the phone?
Or telling the business to ask for proof of id in some way (SS #, drivers license #, etc), and providing it?
I know it is a hassle, but if it becomes more difficult to do this scam, then the scam no longer will work.

We can not say anything to the person at the terminating number. Even if our Orig has made 10 phone calls, using 10 different credit cards, phone numbers, names and addresses, we can not alert anyone. We must remain completely detached from the call. Violating this would surely mean an escort out the door... permanently.

ScamBuster · 02-03-2004, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheri

That is Why I have to watch myself I don't want to give out too much Personal about myself Knowing there are Scams everywhere.

The scams are not aimed at you Cheri. Don't worry, operators would never break the confidentiality of a deaf caller.

Boult · 02-03-2004, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScamBuster

No voice user or text is recorded or saved, ever!. Once you disconnect from Relay - State or IP, all information is gone forever! That's what makes it so confidential and why the scammers are using it.

Scambuster, this may be simple solution or not, just suspend the text based portion of relay via internet (ip-relay) for couple of months to make them think, they are no longer in service forcing them to use line-based tty relay or use VRS, that would kill all scammers ability to scam anymore. well?

ScamBuster · 02-03-2004, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fly Free

yea i agree with u Cheri always best to be protective of ur IDing information as much as possible --

ive visited Scambuster's message boards and read some quite interesting posts by the Relay Operators themselves and i applaud them for trying their best in dealing with scams that occurs too often while also dealing with legit calls from deaf/speech impaired folks -- i found that some of the criminals just simply doesnt know HOW to use the relay right

a surefire giveaway!

using GA repetively and using "plz" instead of "please" or "pls" as is the usual standard in the deaf community on the TTYs or when calling via relay -- one example is: "plz call xxx-xxx-xxxx gagaga" was posted there

To you and me it's obvious, but to a person who has never received an Relay call it isn't and when his/her first one is for an order totally thousands of dollars of products their judgment tends to get clouded.

ScamBuster · 02-03-2004, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boult

Scambuster, this may be simple solution or not, just suspend the text based portion of relay via internet (ip-relay) for couple of months to make them think, they are no longer in service forcing them to use line-based tty relay or use VRS, that would kill all scammers ability to scam anymore. well?

I don't think you'd be able to talk any of the companies into doing something like that. And I know 100 people in my city who would be layed off if they did that, but of course if they ever actually do stop the scam calls a lot of us would be out of a job anyway since scams and pranks are about 70% of our call volume on IP Relay.

Boult · 02-03-2004, 06:26 PM

then those scams call help you keep this job? without them, volumes of calls goes down so your pay goes down eh? pathetic!

ScamBuster · 02-03-2004, 08:32 PM

We really would like input from anyone and everyone in the deaf community on our board. It would show the other operators and the victims how you feel about this. Your empathy would be appreciated. Thanks http://ip_relay_scams.aimoo.com

***VamPyroX*** · 02-03-2004, 11:16 PM

Yeah, I figured that this was happening.

Y · 02-03-2004, 11:49 PM

Oh no, this is VERY SERIOUS !

Shouldn't we do something about this ?

ScamBuster · 02-04-2004, 08:47 PM

Yes, it's serious because it's ruining a service intended for you !

Liza · 02-05-2004, 07:58 AM

It is really nice that you are creating a network with other fellow RO's and having a place to vent. Kudos to everyone on your message board, and I have read some of the interesting posts. That's really sad about the disturbing calls you have to relay most of the time. My heart goes out to you and other RO's.

ScamBuster · 02-10-2004, 05:25 AM

Yes, this is a valid service and for those of us who only take calls from your TTY we do not have to put up with this as no scams or prank calls come through this way. It only goes to show how respectful the deaf community is and the fact that they don't abuse the service that is provided to them. If only that were true for all phone services.

Maria · 02-10-2004, 05:56 AM

ScamBuster... I wonder when did all this start since?

illustrator · 02-10-2004, 08:48 AM

*chuckle* Let's hope there is ip-relay.com shut down. I like old-fasion way by dial 7-1-1. Only idiot couldn't buy TDD.

02-10-2004, 09:08 AM

I wonder if going total video relay would solve the problem or not?

illustrator · 02-10-2004, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deaf258

I wonder if going total video relay would solve the problem or not?

VRS won't be problem because it can be track unlike relay online, which more difficult to track the ip-address when someone are use wireless laptop by connect or tag by wi-fi or wireless routers.

Boult · 02-10-2004, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deaf258

I wonder if going total video relay would solve the problem or not?

Sure both TTY and VRS alone would solve this problem phone calls are traceable and VRS requires you to register for a account.

Roadrunner · 02-12-2004, 12:00 AM

This is really outrageous and quite disappointing that there are such minds bent with a criminal intent by taking such service available in a wrong way, manipulating the service system with utterly disregards and disrespect!!
Understanding fully the scope of confidentiality laws, etc...one thing does come to mind is when a suspected criminal is harboring illegal activity, oftentimes, a court-order to allow law authorities to 'tap' a phone for credible evidence and acknowledgement of such illegal activities IS taking place. Therefore, if RO's cannot so as much speak or show one shred of evidence in light of what may be taking place illegally, then it may take an outsider to approach the police or proper authorities with information of such illegal abuse and manipulation of a service whereas the authorities can obtain legal access to 'tap' via Relay Services to be able to investigate further....I'm aware that there could be much debate and could very well be controversial regarding and stipulating any drastic measures to 'tap' the phone line(s)...Yet, it's an idea that has come to my attention and could be one sort of 'step' to quash this outrageous manipulation of a service intended solely for deaf/hoh users!!

ScamBuster · 02-25-2004, 03:51 AM

MCI at www.ip-relay.com has blocked all calls from Africa, which has drastically reduced the scam calls coming in to just a few a day for each operator. This also means there is no longer a queue for you to make a call. I hope Sprint and AT&T follows suit and blocks them. This service is intended for YOU, not criminals!

02-03-2004, 05:15 AM	#1 (permalink)
ScamBuster Registered User Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 12	Ip Relay Warning As a Relay Operator I feel obligated to advise everyone in the Deaf Community what is happening in our Relay Centers that you may not be aware of. Have you ever called a business using Relay and been hung up on? Well let me explain part of the reason. All IP RELAY Centers (MCI, AT&T, SPRINT) are processing thousands of calls per week from West Africa to U.S. Businesses. We generally are on these calls for an hour at a time while numerous numbers are dialed so these West Africans attempt to order T-Shirts, Laptops, Athletic shoes, Sewing Machines, Inkjet cartridges (and the list goes on an on). These people calling are NOT deaf and even worse they are using STOLEN credit card information to purchase these items and have them shipped to West Africa before the business determines the fraud. These scammers are clogging up Relay center and keeping legitimate deaf users in queue while they use us to commit their crimes. Our companies tell us we can't do anything about it, that we must process the call and remain completely transparent because we can't possibly know if the call is legitimate or not and therefore we can not break confidentiality. BUT we can tell, usually before we even dial the first number. But even after it has become apparent because the caller uses multiple names and credit cards and addresses with different businesses we still are not permitted to end the call, report it or intervene in any way. We must continue to process the calls and assist the criminal. In the meantime you wait for a free operator to make a call. Many businesses are now refusing ALL calls from Relay because they have been ripped off for thousands and thousands of dollars via IP Relay and these scammers. I call out now to everyone in the Deaf Community to visit my Message Board as well. View the comments from other Relay Operators who took a job to service the deaf community and are now working 8 hours a day to service criminals. The telephone companies hide behind the confidentiality laws so they can receive the government cost recovery dollars and make millions at the expense of the Deaf community and the tax payers. Please post your comments on my message board. A LOT of the relay operators would like to see your input to this!!! Thank you! http://ip_relay_scams.aimoo.com Last edited by ScamBuster; 02-10-2004 at 05:22 AM.

02-03-2004, 08:57 AM	#4 (permalink)
Cheri Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 20,755	oh Wow. I had no idea I used the Ip Relay all the time.. Now I got to watch myself... __________________

02-03-2004, 01:17 PM	#7 (permalink)
Cheri Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 20,755	That is Why I have to watch myself I don't want to give out too much Personal about myself Knowing there are Scams everywhere. __________________

02-03-2004, 08:32 PM	#17 (permalink)
ScamBuster Registered User Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 12	Operator's message board We really would like input from anyone and everyone in the deaf community on our board. It would show the other operators and the victims how you feel about this. Your empathy would be appreciated. Thanks http://ip_relay_scams.aimoo.com

02-03-2004, 11:16 PM	#18 (permalink)
*VamPyroX* bloody phreak from hell Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Hell Posts: 27,025	Yeah, I figured that this was happening. __________________ Check out my city... CLICK HERE! (If you already visited yesterday, visit again today!)

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02-03-2004, 05:30 AM	#2 (permalink)
Brian Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: United States Posts: 2,634	Yeah, last week I was doing some research and it came up which got me curious to read through. I was going to post about this here and elsewhere but never got around to it. Thanks for sharing this with us.

02-03-2004, 11:15 AM	#5 (permalink)
Fly Free Just me Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Wherever i want to be LOL Posts: 9,101	i am well aware of that -- and i am also aware the relay operators really are unable to do anything due to confidentality -- but unless theyre given a search warrant for all recorded converstations in their computers is when they will give up the information in cooperation with the local/state police but yea scambuster is right -- they really just simply cannot do anything

02-03-2004, 11:27 AM	#6 (permalink)
bree UnSane Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 158	How about people being proactive? Like when you are on the relay trying to place a order, ask if there is another way to order without using the phone? Or telling the business to ask for proof of id in some way (SS #, drivers license #, etc), and providing it? I know it is a hassle, but if it becomes more difficult to do this scam, then the scam no longer will work.

02-03-2004, 04:25 PM	#8 (permalink)
Fly Free Just me Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Wherever i want to be LOL Posts: 9,101	yea i agree with u Cheri always best to be protective of ur IDing information as much as possible -- ive visited Scambuster's message boards and read some quite interesting posts by the Relay Operators themselves and i applaud them for trying their best in dealing with scams that occurs too often while also dealing with legit calls from deaf/speech impaired folks -- i found that some of the criminals just simply doesnt know HOW to use the relay right a surefire giveaway! using GA repetively and using "plz" instead of "please" or "pls" as is the usual standard in the deaf community on the TTYs or when calling via relay -- one example is: "plz call xxx-xxx-xxxx gagaga" was posted there

02-03-2004, 11:49 PM	#19 (permalink)
Y Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 3,113	Oh no, this is VERY SERIOUS ! Shouldn't we do something about this ? __________________

02-04-2004, 08:47 PM	#20 (permalink)
ScamBuster Registered User Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 12	Very serious Yes, it's serious because it's ruining a service intended for you !

02-05-2004, 07:58 AM	#21 (permalink)
Liza Cranial protocologist Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: St Augustine, FL Posts: 3,897	It is really nice that you are creating a network with other fellow RO's and having a place to vent. Kudos to everyone on your message board, and I have read some of the interesting posts. That's really sad about the disturbing calls you have to relay most of the time. My heart goes out to you and other RO's. __________________

02-10-2004, 05:25 AM	#22 (permalink)
ScamBuster Registered User Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 12	Yes, this is a valid service and for those of us who only take calls from your TTY we do not have to put up with this as no scams or prank calls come through this way. It only goes to show how respectful the deaf community is and the fact that they don't abuse the service that is provided to them. If only that were true for all phone services.

02-10-2004, 05:56 AM	#23 (permalink)
Maria Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: FLORIDA Posts: 8,154	ScamBuster... I wonder when did all this start since? __________________

02-10-2004, 08:48 AM	#24 (permalink)
illustrator Love in Jesus Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Benbrook Posts: 4,594	chuckle Let's hope there is ip-relay.com shut down. I like old-fasion way by dial 7-1-1. Only idiot couldn't buy TDD.

02-10-2004, 09:08 AM	#25 (permalink)
Deaf258 Guest Posts: n/a	I wonder if going total video relay would solve the problem or not?

02-12-2004, 12:00 AM	#28 (permalink)
Roadrunner Registered User Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 7,090	This is really outrageous and quite disappointing that there are such minds bent with a criminal intent by taking such service available in a wrong way, manipulating the service system with utterly disregards and disrespect!! Understanding fully the scope of confidentiality laws, etc...one thing does come to mind is when a suspected criminal is harboring illegal activity, oftentimes, a court-order to allow law authorities to 'tap' a phone for credible evidence and acknowledgement of such illegal activities IS taking place. Therefore, if RO's cannot so as much speak or show one shred of evidence in light of what may be taking place illegally, then it may take an outsider to approach the police or proper authorities with information of such illegal abuse and manipulation of a service whereas the authorities can obtain legal access to 'tap' via Relay Services to be able to investigate further....I'm aware that there could be much debate and could very well be controversial regarding and stipulating any drastic measures to 'tap' the phone line(s)...Yet, it's an idea that has come to my attention and could be one sort of 'step' to quash this outrageous manipulation of a service intended solely for deaf/hoh users!!

02-25-2004, 03:51 AM	#29 (permalink)
ScamBuster Registered User Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 12	It's about time ! MCI at www.ip-relay.com has blocked all calls from Africa, which has drastically reduced the scam calls coming in to just a few a day for each operator. This also means there is no longer a queue for you to make a call. I hope Sprint and AT&T follows suit and blocks them. This service is intended for YOU, not criminals!