School For The Deaf Or Mainstream?

deafdyke said:
That said, if your students were indeed doing so well, then they would not require ANY help. They could just be taught like a hearing kid. Isn't that what auditory oral tries to do? Make it so that a dhh kid can be taught like a hearing kid?
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No. That is not, in fact, the goal. No matter how many times you repeat it. The goal is not to make deaf kids hearing. The goal is to give them the opportunity to participate in the world using the mode of communication of the majority. It is to give them access to the language of their family and community. It is to have their L1 match the language they will read and write in. It is to have them become well educate and literate adults who can be whoever they want.
 
deafdyke said:
Well why not do EVERYTHING? You don't know what will/won't be useful for the dhh kid, so why not put the choice in their hands and GIVE them ALL the choices possible? Yes, the child is too young to make a choice....that is why they have a right to access EVERYTHING available. Otherwise you're not providing them with the choice in the first place!
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That is not my decision.
 
deafdyke said:
No it IS about how cute they are. I know the mentality. You see them as little kids, and you see how cute they are, but you do not understand that does not last. Things change drasticly when children are older, but you just don't see it b/c again you're so stuck on how cute these cute little kids are. I see it all the time. And boy if you have the attitude that speech only allows them to do anything, that is VERY audist and aggronet. If speech was the answer to Life the Universe and Everything, then all hearing and speaking people would be incredibily successful. You've probaly never seen the kids I have....the ones who have never dated, the ones who still have issues with the difference between boycotted and boycotting, the ones who can barely read or write, the ones who have never been invited to a party, the ones who are on the low level educational track.......I could tell you thousands of horror stories of kids who fell through the cracks. Heck my friend Jill is a psychologist who works with dhh kids. She's been working with dhh kids for 30 years. She says she still hears the same stories.
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You know nothing about my mentality. As I said before, I have worked with students up to the 11th grade. I am friends with several deaf adults who grew up using spoken language and are now listening and spoken language teachers. Speech is not the "answer to life and everything" but early and fluent language sure is.

You keep making claims about research and how all these other people have stories, but you haven't provide access to any of it. As I said before, I would love to hear from these young people directly. You are interpreting, I want to hear it first hand. I would also like to see the research because it is in direct opposition to what I have seen and done.
 
Teacherofthedeaf said:
You know nothing about my mentality. As I said before, I have worked with students up to the 11th grade. I am friends with several deaf adults who grew up using spoken language and are now listening and spoken language teachers. Speech is not the "answer to life and everything" but early and fluent language sure is.

You keep making claims about research and how all these other people have stories, but you haven't provide access to any of it. As I said before, I would love to hear from these young people directly. You are interpreting, I want to hear it first hand. I would also like to see the research because it is in direct opposition to what I have seen and done.
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Actually no I do. I know the mentality of a particualar teacher. I know that b/c I see it ALL the time. Oral teachers seem so caught up with how cute the little kids are, and very rarely understand that things do change drasiticly. I also don't believe your claims since you didn't even know who the Chaikofs are...they are famous in oral circles. I almost think you're either a troll or one of those oral TODs who still thinks it's 1945 and that people are so impressed by oral and mainstreamed kids. Most of the oral TODs I know actually do reconize a lot of the downsides.....Ever been to the Clarke School conference? Why do I get the vibe that if you did, you would be mindblown? Even Mark Marshacks work says pretty much that while there are not a lot of kids with severe expressive spoken language delays, the benefits of an oral and inclusion education stop around middle school....are you aware about the fourth grade oral deaf ceiling? Remember how kids would transfer to CID, Clarke and St Joe's up til the 2000's? (when they closed the dorms) That is b/c they would struggle around that age.... It still happens but b/c of the fixtation on inclusion, as a policy for all kids with disabilties the public school can just "hide" them in special ed... Remember, just b/c a kid is in the mainstream, it doesn't mean that they are on grade level.....and you do realize that only a very small percentage of dhh kids actually receive a formal oral education right? Most oral kids are kneejerk mainstreamed kids, which is a population that hasn't had a lot of research done on them.... But you do realize that inclusion and oralism has been pretty common for a couple of generations now right? If that path worked, then you'd see kids thriving, and high employment levels as well as excellent markers for quality of life..... But unemployement levels are still very high.... looks like it's a lot more complex then you want to admit.
 
Rose Massey said:
She was at a Catholic school which we liked but no HHS at all. They didn't even have an FM system. Nice people and kids but my daughter still struggled to hear sometimes and said the teacher seemed to be yelling a lot (could have been her hearing aid not adjusting fast enough). But if her loss is progressive I am afraid for her future. I am even considering homeschooling.
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If your daughter can still hear and speak, go with a public school, they will have more resources available for your daughter than a Catholic school will. When a child needs special education Catholic schools fall way behind it's public school counterparts.
 
deafdyke said:
Actually no I do. I know the mentality of a particualar teacher. I know that b/c I see it ALL the time. Oral teachers seem so caught up with how cute the little kids are, and very rarely understand that things do change drasiticly. I also don't believe your claims since you didn't even know who the Chaikofs are...they are famous in oral circles. I almost think you're either a troll or one of those oral TODs who still thinks it's 1945 and that people are so impressed by oral and mainstreamed kids. Most of the oral TODs I know actually do reconize a lot of the downsides.....Ever been to the Clarke School conference? Why do I get the vibe that if you did, you would be mindblown? Even Mark Marshacks work says pretty much that while there are not a lot of kids with severe expressive spoken language delays, the benefits of an oral and inclusion education stop around middle school....are you aware about the fourth grade oral deaf ceiling? Remember how kids would transfer to CID, Clarke and St Joe's up til the 2000's? (when they closed the dorms) That is b/c they would struggle around that age.... It still happens but b/c of the fixtation on inclusion, as a policy for all kids with disabilties the public school can just "hide" them in special ed... Remember, just b/c a kid is in the mainstream, it doesn't mean that they are on grade level.....and you do realize that only a very small percentage of dhh kids actually receive a formal oral education right? Most oral kids are kneejerk mainstreamed kids, which is a population that hasn't had a lot of research done on them.... But you do realize that inclusion and oralism has been pretty common for a couple of generations now right? If that path worked, then you'd see kids thriving, and high employment levels as well as excellent markers for quality of life..... But unemployement levels are still very high.... looks like it's a lot more complex then you want to admit.
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You think that because I don't know a particular family I must be a troll? That is insane. I have never once claimed that inclusion in a general education setting cures all the problems associated with hearing loss. You are making wild claims. It seems to me that you must have once attended a conference and decided that it makes you an expert in all things related to listening and spoken language education. I do know the research about students in general education, and it doesn't show what you are claiming at all. The longitudinal data shows the opposite. The more time a student spends in gen. ed. the more likely they are to have age appropriate language and reading. The only study that has reported social skills equal to hearing students was a study of AV students. No ASL study has shown that.
 
Teacherofthedeaf said:
You think that because I don't know a particular family I must be a troll? That is insane. I have never once claimed that inclusion in a general education setting cures all the problems associated with hearing loss. You are making wild claims. It seems to me that you must have once attended a conference and decided that it makes you an expert in all things related to listening and spoken language education. I do know the research about students in general education, and it doesn't show what you are claiming at all. The longitudinal data shows the opposite. The more time a student spends in gen. ed. the more likely they are to have age appropriate language and reading. The only study that has reported social skills equal to hearing students was a study of AV students. No ASL study has shown that.
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The more time the students spend in gen ed the more likely to have age appropriate language and reading? How when spoken language is not fully accessible to them?

Wild claims. I have known many deaf people who grew up going to Deaf schools who can read and write just fine. Pls dont spread false information. Geez
 
shel90 said:
The more time the students spend in gen ed the more likely to have age appropriate language and reading? How when spoken language is not fully accessible to them?

Wild claims. I have known many deaf people who grew up going to Deaf schools who can read and write just fine. Pls dont spread false information. Geez
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"Another reason that these students may be performing academically higher than those in previous studies is because they might have more exposure to the general education curriculum than students educated in self-contained classrooms (Soukup, Wehmeyer, Bashinski, & Bovaird, 2007). Other research with DHH students (Holt, 1994; Kluwin, 1993) has indicated that access to the general academic curriculum is associated with higher achievement and progress"

http://jdsde.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2009/06/06/deafed.enp009.full.pdf+html
 
shel90 said:
The more time the students spend in gen ed the more likely to have age appropriate language and reading? How when spoken language is not fully accessible to them?

Wild claims. I have known many deaf people who grew up going to Deaf schools who can read and write just fine. Pls dont spread false information. Geez
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"More recent data from state-level assessment programs confirm the persistent trend of low academic achievement of deaf and hard-of-hearing students. In California, only 8% of deaf students and 15% of hard-of-hearing students scored proficient or advanced on the California Standards Test for English Language Arts, and for Mathematics, 10% of deaf students and 18% of hard-of-hearing students scored proficient or advanced (California Department of Education, 2007). We have not identified any other statewide summaries in the literature, but there are several school-level reports from state schools for deaf. Cawthon (2008) summarized the student proficiency rates from schools for the deaf in 21 states that had report cards for deaf students in 2007. For example, only 15.6% of students in the Louisiana School for the Deaf (LSD), across all grades, achieved proficiency in reading and 31.3% achieved proficiency in mathematics (Cawthon, 2008, p. 106). To put these statistics into context, compare statewide and LSD eighth-grade reading and mathematics proficiency levels in 2007, for example, statewide they were 58.9% and 55.9%, respectively, whereas at LSD they were 23.8% and 19.0%, respectively (CCSSO SchoolMatters, 2007). School and statewide comparisons can be made for less commonly tested subjects as well: 20% of LSD students taking the state's Graduate Exit Examination (GEE) achieved at or above the basic level on the science test, compared with 60% statewide, whereas only 10% achieved at or above basic level on the GEE social studies test, compared with 64% statewide (SchoolDigger.com, 2010). Though the magnitude of the achievement gap between students at schools for the deaf and students statewide varies from state to state, the differences are always substantial and, with few exceptions, deaf and hard-of-hearing students’ proficiency rates are quite low (e.g., seeCawthon, 2008; http://www.SchoolMatters.com)."

http://jdsde.oxfordjournals.org/content/17/1/1.full
 
Teacherofthedeaf said:
"Another reason that these students may be performing academically higher than those in previous studies is because they might have more exposure to the general education curriculum than students educated in self-contained classrooms (Soukup, Wehmeyer, Bashinski, & Bovaird, 2007). Other research with DHH students (Holt, 1994; Kluwin, 1993) has indicated that access to the general academic curriculum is associated with higher achievement and progress"

http://jdsde.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2009/06/06/deafed.enp009.full.pdf+html
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I was mainstreamed and I missed out on a lot. I had no idea what was being said in the classroom 90% of the time. People who do these studies dont know crap what really goes on in deaf children's lives day in and day out in the hearing world without ASL or the Deaf community. It SUCKS !
 
And have you ever met any Deaf adults who graduated from Deaf schools? Judging from your posts, I dont think so.
 
shel90 said:
I was mainstreamed and I missed out on a lot. I had no idea what was being said in the classroom 90% of the time. People who do these studies dont know crap what really goes on in deaf children's lives day in and day out in the hearing world without ASL or the Deaf community. It SUCKS !
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You said I was propagating lies, so I provided examples of research that show exactly what I said.
 
Teacherofthedeaf said:
You said I was propagating lies, so I provided examples of research that show exactly what I said.
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Spend time in the Deaf community and meet those who graduated from Deaf schools and those who were mainstreamed and learned ASL and the Deaf community later on...not just oral deaf kids only. You seem to on only research instead of real people only. That's why you are spreading misinformation. Reasearch can be biased.
 
shel90 said:
Spend time in the Deaf community and meet those who graduated from Deaf schools and those who were mainstreamed and learned ASL and the Deaf community later on...not just oral deaf kids only. You seem to on only research instead of real people only. That's why you are spreading misinformation. Reasearch can be biased.
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No, personal anecdotes are unreliable and should not be used to generalize. I do know Deaf adults. In fact, of the 5 students I currently serve, two of them have Deaf family members. I also have taught several more students who have parents who are deaf or hard of hearing. It has actually managed to work out to about 1/3 of my students. That is a lot more than what should be statistically, but it has happened. These Deaf adults have chosen spoken language for their children.

Have you stepped outside the Deaf community and learned from the adults who have lived and have chosen to remain using spoken language? Have you spoken to the parents who use ASL but choose spoken language for their own children? I can provide individual examples just like you can, but the research is what can be measured and compared. It looks beyond the individuals and finds patterns that are representative and reproducible.
 
Teacherofthedeaf said:
No, personal anecdotes are unreliable and should not be used to generalize. I do know Deaf adults. In fact, of the 5 students I currently serve, two of them have Deaf family members. I also have taught several more students who have parents who are deaf or hard of hearing. It has actually managed to work out to about 1/3 of my students. That is a lot more than what should be statistically, but it has happened. These Deaf adults have chosen spoken language for their children.

Have you stepped outside the Deaf community and learned from the adults who have lived and have chosen to remain using spoken language? Have you spoken to the parents who use ASL but choose spoken language for their own children? I can provide individual examples just like you can, but the research is what can be measured and compared. It looks beyond the individuals and finds patterns that are representative and reproducible.
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First you provided data that supports the oral only philosophy and now you are say you are friends with Deaf people who use ASL? Really?

Yes I have met Deaf adults who want their deaf kids develop speech skills but they have also valued ASL in their children's lives. Never heard of Deaf adults who use ASL and dont let their deaf children not use ASL. Just seems fishy. Oral only deaf adults who have never learned asl having their deaf children learn oral only makes sense because they have no idea how accessible ASL is.
 
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shel90 said:
First you provided data that supports the oral only philosophy and now you are say you are friends with Deaf people who use ASL? Really?

Yes I have met Deaf adults who want their deaf kids develop speech skills but they have also valued ASL in their children's lives. Never heard of Deaf adults who use ASL and dont let their deaf children not use ASL. Just seems fishy. Oral only deaf adults who have never learned asl having their deaf children learn oral only makes sense because they have no idea how accessible ASL is.
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The data did no such thing. It had nothing to do with spoken language vs. ASL. It was about access to general education.

I am not saying that Deaf parents want their children to "develop speech", I am talking about Deaf parents who place their children at spoken language schools and use spoken language as the mode of communication at school and home because they want it to be their child's primary language.

I asked if you ever associate with these people and hear their stories (including those who use and advocate spoken language even after they learn ASL) or if you only speak to those who identify as Deaf.
 
Rose Massey said:
My 8 yr old daughter has progressive unilateral hearing loss. She qualifies for a reputable deaf school. Our local mainstream school provides her with only 20 min a week of HHS and said they won't give her any more until she starts failing or goes 100% deaf. There are 1600 students in her school(overcrowded k-8) and no other HoH kids in the school. She wears a hearing aid and the teacher uses an FM system. Is this enough? Or should I consider the school for the deaf as a day student? When I visited the school for the deaf the student ratio was 1:6 which was great but the only downside was that the HoH kids were not aloud to speak. Only ASL was aloud in school. My daughter has excellent speech. Why would prohibiting speech be a good thing? Also about 80% of the kids had severe hearing loss or were 100% deaf. I am very stressed about what I should do.
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My girls just moved from mainstream to a Deaf school. Academically they were doing well but social emotionally they were a mess. Both my girls have flourished in their school and love it. The other kids may only make sounds but you would be surprised many of them voice but choose not to because they want everyone to have access. It would be unfair to the other children if other children voiced. My girls use ASL all day and come home and voice to us. You can not compare an overcrowded school to the 6:1 they will get a specialized education and have the support that mainstream can not give.
 
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