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Unread 09-11-2011, 09:23 PM   #1 (permalink)
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% or dB?

I always think hearing loss only measure in dB...only I see many post on AD which say "I am 50% deaf..." etc. 50% =\= 50dB right? Are both correct to use (%/dB)?
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Unread 09-11-2011, 09:44 PM   #2 (permalink)
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dB is more scientific.
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Unread 09-11-2011, 09:48 PM   #3 (permalink)
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My mom uses percent, and I could never quite determine how many dB that was. I once asked her and she said 70-75 dB, which is also the amount of percent loss she says she has. I like dB better.
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Unread 09-11-2011, 09:54 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I think it depends on context to some extent, and to whom you're speaking. People who have never had occasion to study hearing might not have any idea what a 20 dB loss is, or an 80 dB loss. So I can understand in casual conversation someone might say "I have a moderate loss" or "I have a 50%" loss, or whatever, just to get the general point across.

But for people who know the subject, it's more accurate to use dB. Of course complicating things is that a lot of people have more of a high-frequency loss and a lesser degree of loss in the lower frequencies, so even saying a certain dB loss doesn't mean that's necessarily true across all frequencies.
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Unread 09-11-2011, 10:05 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Lol...confusing
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Unread 09-11-2011, 10:09 PM   #6 (permalink)
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DB and percent don't really correlate either. Someone put up a chart one time, but I don't remember what thread it was.
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Unread 09-11-2011, 10:44 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I've read numerous times online and in my medical books and from my audi that hearing loss if said as a percent is not accurate. Hearing loss is measured in dB not percent
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Unread 09-12-2011, 12:23 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny_signs View Post
I always think hearing loss only measure in dB...only I see many post on AD which say "I am 50% deaf..." etc. 50% =\= 50dB right? Are both correct to use (%/dB)?
youre correct... its =/=... dB is the proper way to use it.
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Unread 09-12-2011, 03:41 AM   #9 (permalink)
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I don't think 50dB = 50%. Firstly, the audi charts I've seen go to 120dB. Secondly, and this is the most important point, dB is a logarithmic scale. This means that 2dB hearing loss (HL) isn't twice as bad as a 1dB loss, but in fact 10x worse, and 10dB HL is 100x bigger than 1dB. Not sure of my maths but if 120dB is total deafness, I think 50% of total deafness is 119dB not 60dB. As a rough guess, I'd say 60dB is about 1% deafness compared to 120dB. Therefore somebody with 90dB HL is many times worse than somebody with 60dB HL, even though on the audi chart it is only a 50% increase from 60dB to 90dB.
Here's an example of a logarithmic curve:
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Unread 09-12-2011, 11:55 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Techically you cannot measure dB in percentage cos it goes over 100dB and more. Really percentage is meanless. Stick with dB.

I noticed that old people with HOH and parents with new deaf baby say in percentage cos audi seems to think that dB is too hard to explain and dumb it down to percentage as if 100dB is max. Some audi are good and explain fully properly.
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Unread 09-12-2011, 11:56 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Techically you cannot measure dB in percentage cos it goes over 100dB and more. Really percentage is meanless. Stick with dB.

I noticed that old people with HOH and parents with new deaf baby say in percentage cos audi seems to think that dB is too hard to explain and dumb it down to percentage as if 100dB is max. Some audi are good and explain fully properly.
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Unread 09-12-2011, 12:02 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJWSmith View Post
I don't think 50dB = 50%. Firstly, the audi charts I've seen go to 120dB. Secondly, and this is the most important point, dB is a logarithmic scale. This means that 2dB hearing loss (HL) isn't twice as bad as a 1dB loss, but in fact 10x worse, and 10dB HL is 100x bigger than 1dB. Not sure of my maths but if 120dB is total deafness, I think 50% of total deafness is 119dB not 60dB. As a rough guess, I'd say 60dB is about 1% deafness compared to 120dB. Therefore somebody with 90dB HL is many times worse than somebody with 60dB HL, even though on the audi chart it is only a 50% increase from 60dB to 90dB.
Here's an example of a logarithmic curve:
http://som.csudh.edu/fac/lpress/neta...s/image002.gif
10 db = 10x. so 20db is 100x of 1db.

100db is 100x of 80db....

50% loss? from 100 db - it would be 95 db, from my total guess.

My explanation would be: 50x of 80db is 95db. 100x is 100db. cut that back by 50x, and you get 95db.

regardless - at 100 and 95db, they're still loud so we can't accurately say 95-100db is actually 50% of eachother. It's just how much energy that is put out. I am no acoustics engineer so I can't tell you for a fact.

Then again, I can see it being 85dB being 50% less.... And logically that would make sense.
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Unread 09-12-2011, 03:53 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by posts from hell View Post
10 db = 10x. so 20db is 100x of 1db.

100db is 100x of 80db....

50% loss? from 100 db - it would be 95 db, from my total guess.

My explanation would be: 50x of 80db is 95db. 100x is 100db. cut that back by 50x, and you get 95db.

regardless - at 100 and 95db, they're still loud so we can't accurately say 95-100db is actually 50% of eachother. It's just how much energy that is put out. I am no acoustics engineer so I can't tell you for a fact.

Then again, I can see it being 85dB being 50% less.... And logically that would make sense.
I have read some more stuff on measuring sound (see links below). It's clear that 50dB doesn't equal 50% hearing loss. However they suggest that the human brain perceives sound in a logarithmic way, so 100dB supposedly sounds twice as loud as 50dB even though measuring sound pressure itself, it's 100x greater. This is probably due to the brain manipulating & leveling out sounds, amplifying the quiet noises and dampening down the loud ones. But I think from a hearing loss point of view it's more linear than logarithmic as the brain needs to receive the sound before it can boost/dampen it. So the brain of a person with a moderate HL is receiving considerably more sound information than the brain of a person with severe HL, even though the audi scale only shows a small drop.
dB: What is a decibel?
Decibel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

posts from hell - like you I've tried to manually work out 50% of 100dB but my maths skills are too rusty. My best attempt is that 90dB is 50% of 100dB, but I can't explain my reasoning mathematically - it's just an educated guess. My more logical attempt is to say 99dB is 50% of 100dB but that seems too extreme...
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Unread 09-12-2011, 04:07 PM   #14 (permalink)
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We need daredevel7's mathematical skills here...
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Unread 09-12-2011, 04:29 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I recall an audiologist saying that the reason why the charts go up to ~120 db is because from there onward, it is 'medically' considered the threshold for experiencing pain and/or getting the nerves/drums damaged. Sensitivity may possibly vary in real life for different individuals, but I think generally 120 is the accepted maximum.

Beyond that point is like standing next to a jet engine accelerating, being next to a firing gun, 'loud cases' that if you can't hear it, you can definitely feel it.

And yeah, the formula is logarithmic, which is why it's an exponential curve rather than progressive.
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Unread 09-12-2011, 04:34 PM   #16 (permalink)
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searched it up and found a chart showing sound pressure levels of common noises:

http://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/otm/noi...opagation.html

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Unread 09-12-2011, 04:34 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bottesini View Post
DB and percent don't really correlate either. Someone put up a chart one time, but I don't remember what thread it was.
Yeah. I don't like using percentages so I generally tell people that my loss is around 115 across most frequencies except for a couple of lower frequencies; it is around 90 db at the 250 and 500 frequenies.
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Unread 09-12-2011, 05:06 PM   #18 (permalink)
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AJW, the formula for calculating db loss was in your links, so
db = 10log10 (power value 1/ power value0) where the numbers in (x / y) is your power ratio from the source.

there was an example given that 30 db is calculated by 10log10(1000w/1w) = 30db.

50% of that power source would have been 500w, 10log10(500w/1w) = 26.989db.
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Unread 09-12-2011, 05:11 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJWSmith View Post
We need daredevel7's mathematical skills here...
Someone say my name?

This is how I see it (I could be wrong, btw):

To me,
1 dB represents 10^0 = 1x
10 db represents 10^1 = 10x
20 db represents 10^2 = 100x
30 db represents 10^3 = 1000x
40 db represents 10^4 = 10000x
....
80 db represents 10^8 = 100000000x
100db represents 10^10 = 10000000000x

So.. PFH was correct when he said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by posts from hell View Post
10 db = 10x. so 20db is 100x of 1db.

100db is 100x of 80db....
Because:
10^10 / 10^8 = 10^2 = 100x
(100dB) / (80dB)

Meaning 100 dB is definitely 100x bigger than 80dB

Now, about the 50% loss. That assumes that there is an "optimum" or a "maximum". Because you can't put a percentage of loss without a reference. So let's assume that 100dB is the "maximum".

100 dB is equal to 10^10.
So 50% of 10^10 is actually just 5^10.

Using my calculator to find the log of 5^10 using a base of 10... that equals to 7.6 ish. **

This means 50% loss from 100 dB is about 76 dB, which supports PFH's theory:

Quote:
Originally Posted by posts from hell View Post
Then again, I can see it being 85dB being 50% less.... And logically that would make sense.
And I'd have to agree. 50% loss from 120 dB is actually 117 dB. So looks like 100dB is a better point of reference.

** If you want to know what the hell I am talking about with the log stuff, here is an explanation. For those who don't care, end of post!

If you use your calculator, you can use log to solve for X if you know Y for 10^X=Y. (This is assuming log is based on 10, but most are.)

For example, 10^2 = 100, right? So if I type in 100, then press log, my answer will be 2. Obviously, you don't need a calculator if you have something like 100, 10000, 100000000000000, you only have to count the number of zeros, but when you have a more complicated number, you will need your calculator for that. So, that's what I did for 5^10.
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Unread 09-12-2011, 05:15 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I did the calcs based on the x kW to y W given on the wiki:

To calculate 100db loss that is 10 zero's, 10log10 (10000000000w/1w) = 100db
50% of that would be 10log10 (5000000000w/1w) = 96.989db

Somehow, I don't think this is necessarily gauged as percentage of hearing loss, it's rather change in percentage in the amount of noise.
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Unread 09-12-2011, 05:18 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Whew...........
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Unread 09-12-2011, 05:18 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Oooh.. yall say 95/96.####db

I said 76 db for 50% loss... who is right?!?!!? :-|

Edit:
Oh damn...

I just recalculated my numbers...

it IS 96.9 dB!

Y'all win!!

I am NEVER using a computer calculator again!

Edit again: Just wanted to clarify, the math is right, I just was missing a zero when I did the log. Lame!
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Unread 09-12-2011, 05:21 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I am aroused by your logarithm calculation.
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Unread 09-12-2011, 05:22 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Sunny... There you go. 50% sound energy loss from 100dB is 96.9 dB.
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Unread 09-12-2011, 05:22 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daredevel7 View Post
Oooh.. yall say 95/96.####db

I said 76 db for 50% loss... who is right?!?!!? :-|

Edit:
Oh damn...

I just recalculated my numbers...

it IS 96.9 dB!

Y'all win!!

I am NEVER using a computer calculator again!

Edit again: Just wanted to clarify, the math is right, I just was missing a zero when I did the log. Lame!
Woot, woot, who's da man. Too bad we didn't get to bet anything yet.
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Unread 09-12-2011, 05:24 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Woot, woot, who's da man. Too bad we didn't get to bet anything yet.
We need to spice it up with some betting.....

next time!
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Unread 09-12-2011, 05:29 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Example of "I am 50% deaf"


I saw this in tv with CC several years ago. It's a skit of "Lil Jon" from SNL. I'm trying to find a transcript but basically... ticket agent was asking Lil Jon a question something like - "would you like...." and Lil Jon said "what??? what???" several times and she patiently repeated her question until Lil Jon gets it. At the end - she said "Have a nice flight!" and Lil Jon said "what???". "Have a nice flight"... "what???" several times until he understood and said "yeaaa ooooookkkk!!!!" lol!
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Unread 09-12-2011, 05:34 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Lil Jon needs a "Deaf Coach"
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Unread 09-12-2011, 05:35 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Yeah, I think there are three ways I can think of to classify "percentage of hearing loss", cause the meaning of percentage can be subjective.

a. the audi's standpoint, I read that they use another complex method to calculate it by adding two forms of calculated db's, based on all these formulas (which incorporates b formulas)

b. the change in the amount of noise that we're measuring as the test sound. Like a grenade blew up next to you, say it was 200db, what if you were wearing earplugs or ear protection at that time so it was like 100db = effectively reduced by a "50%" loss but this sounds a bit complex depending on how we're measuring it. I think that is may be why they induce those background wind noises in the testing for the audiogram.

c. what the person perceives of how much they can hear someone.. like if asked on a scale of 0-100%, how much do you feel you can hear of your given capacity?

so yeah, it's kind of subjective to what's being asked..
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Unread 09-12-2011, 05:35 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Lil Jon needs a "Deaf Coach"
what? what? what?

yyyeeeeaaaa ooookkkkkaaaayyyy!!!!!
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