The new deaf generation....speaking and listening - Page 3

inmate23 · 06-18-2011, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeafCaroline

The brand of oral deaf education I was raised on was very very anti-ASL and deaf community. I asked my mother why she never taught me ASL and she said because I would not try so hard to learn to speak in order to fit into the hearing world if I had ASL and the deaf community.

The premise was in order for a deaf child to speak well, they must be kept apart from ASL and the deaf community. Entirely.

Back then they called AVT oral deaf ed today they are difference thank g-d

**shel90** · 06-18-2011, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeafCaroline

The kids in the video reminded me when I was young. I was very proud to show off the rewards of my hard work which was speaking well. And I WAS proud. But I could not have known as a child that this wasn't enough and being so aware of how hard my mother worked on teaching me to speak (two hours a day of speech therapy MINIMUM), I would have never publicly voiced any complaints. I mean, before you're filmed, you're kinda prepped to show the public how successful you are so you get the message that that's what you have to present.
As for tone and inflection, you CAN get that with hearing aids. Music was a huge huge part of my speech therapy in that it taught me rhythm and influctuations of tone - I learned to play musical instruments and music was always playing all day long in the house. furthermore, I have the ability to pick up accents and mimick them perfectly. So, it's misleading to imply that only kids with CIs can acquire that ability.
I watched the videos and I got a little pissy at certain comments like "when I learned my child was deaf, I shut down because how am I supposed to communicate with him" or "i thought my child would have to learn sign language, gosh, that means that the family would have to too" or "20 years ago, I would have had to tell you to send your kid to special ed but with cochlear implants, they can go to a normal school" - right off the bat, there's instantly audist slants. Even the description for the first video is misleading "Deaf children learn to speak and LISTEN fluently." That suggests children have perfect hearing with CIs which is definitely not the norm.

There always seems to be audist views whenever there are articles, videos or blogs about CIs. It is unfortunate.

**shel90** · 06-18-2011, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeafCaroline

WHAT?! My stomach just twisted right now. I can't believe this method exists. That sounds so...corporal and 19th century. Do they still use this method nowadays?

Unfortunately, yes.

DeafCaroline · 06-18-2011, 09:19 PM

I just realized after reading that PDF "Communication Approaches Chart" that I was raised AVT. Gawd.

It worked so well that here I am learning ASL and reaching out to Deaf people.

**shel90** · 06-18-2011, 09:23 PM

[QUOTE=DeafCaroline;1844609]I just realized after reading that PDF "Communication Approaches Chart" that I was raised AVT. Gawd.

It worked so well that here I am learning ASL and reaching out to Deaf people. [/QUOTE]

inmate23 · 06-18-2011, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeafCaroline

I just realized after reading that PDF "Communication Approaches Chart" that I was raised AVT. Gawd.

Thats why I posted so people could see the diffidences in the approaches that are VERY similar

deafbajagal · 06-18-2011, 09:36 PM

AVT = child abuse.

**deafskeptic** · 06-18-2011, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banjo

It still is.

Yep.

kokonut · 06-18-2011, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inmate23

What planet are you living on? AVT does as AVTERS believe that manual communication(including lipreading) would stop the brain connections forming for person to listen through audibility only.

Oral deaf education does NOT preclude sign language outside of its practicing sessions.

your statement corrected

here is great pdf
http://www.ncbegin.org/images/storie...ches-chart.pdf

Open up your mind a little bit.

Here's a story of Deaf parents and their deaf son's CI who use both AVT and ASL.
Deaf Parent's Cochlear Implant Story | Cochlear Implant Online | Hearing impairment

AVT doesn't have to be exclusive in every aspect of a child's day when it comes to communication.

deafdyke · 06-19-2011, 12:14 AM

Quote:

but I get the impression when you talk about adult "oral only" deaf people, that you're thinking mainly of people who learned to talk with great effort, never being able to hear themselves or others, and who lip-read extensively. Success (if you call that "success"), was only because of extremely hard work for both the individuals and for their parents, assuming the deaf ones were deaf as children.

Is that right?

Nope.
Were you aware that even deaf people can be functionally hoh with HAs? Matter of fact, in the old old days Clarke School for the Deaf had 200 kids in their dorms?!?! I think it's something like 10% of deaf kids who can benifit from traditional aiding. We're not talking about kids who learned to talk unaided or with minimal hearing. Yes, there are adults who learned to talk with minimal hearing, but there are also a lot of deaf as kids adults who learned to talk with hearing aids. Profound can mean something like "hears 10% of the spondees unaided, but hears 60 something% aided." you know!

**TXgolfer** · 06-19-2011, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by posts from hell

When you're ignoring him, he is not ignoring you. Its how the system works.

I just elect not to even respond to his "hearing" blogs or threads.

next you are going to tell me people can still see me when I close my eyes!

jillio · 06-19-2011, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inmate23

In your blog you talk about

F*ck off we MUST. My statement is . One thing I love about living away home is I choose my when and how my "toolbox" comes into play

As well you should. It is your job to do; you know which tools best suit your task.

deafdyke · 06-19-2011, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Oral deaf education does NOT preclude sign language outside of its practicing sessions.

The brand of oral deaf education I was raised on was very very anti-ASL and deaf community. I asked my mother why she never taught me ASL and she said because I would not try so hard to learn to speak in order to fit into the hearing world if I had ASL and the deaf community

Ummm inmate, this isn't oral deaf education. This is basicly Eternal Speech therapy on steroids. Oral deaf ed is oral Deaf Schools like Clarke and CID etc.
Which are also dwindling in terms of students. Matter of fact, most of the oral deaf schools are now Early Intervention preschools, rather then a real honest to god community. It's now...." gotta get them up to speed, and into the mainstream." They have this unspoken worship of the mainstream, as the Best Placement In the Universe. I find that horrifying. On one hand, it's good that five year olds don't need to go live in the dorms any more. On the other hand, I do think that the oral deaf advocates in the US/ North America have totally and completely forgotten the concept of community. ...they are ALSO clueless about the mainstream and what it's like to live life as an eternal speech therapy session!

jillio · 06-19-2011, 12:40 AM

[QUOTE=kokonut;1844266]Parents are the guardian of their own children. They make the necessary informed decision.[/QUOTE]

They make a decision. Far, far too often, it is not an informed decision, because all of the information regarding the implications of that decision have not been provided to them. To believe that parents are getting all of the information prior to making a decision to implant is just naive. They are pushed to make the decision NOW, BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE. That goes hand in hand with not being fully informed.

jillio · 06-19-2011, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babyblue

Anyways.. regarding to the OP post. I think it is great that early intervention is being taken.

Watching the video I also noticed the accent of the children. Which I find interesting, and awesome.

Good to hear some positive things on CIs.

EI really isn't such a new concept, though. My son went through early intervention services, and there were several deaf children in the program he and I went through, known at the time as Parent/Infant training. Except in the most rural areas where there may not be another deaf person around for miles and miles, it can be pretty safely assumed that all deaf kids are getting EI services unless that parent refuses them.

jillio · 06-19-2011, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeafCaroline

I posted a comment to say that it's misleading to say "listen fluently" since CIs do not give you perfect hearing and they deleted it. Nice.

secondly, the film was sponsored by for CI companies - not exactly an objective stance. They are clearly pushing the image that a deaf child can only be functional and happy with CIs.

On youtube, I looked at Pipeline's channel to see the info about the films and lo and behold:

PipelineMedia1 Thank you for coming to view our film, LISTEN... I'M SPEAKING, highlighting the benefits of Auditory/Verbal teaching for children born deaf.
Special thanks to our sponsors who made this production possible:
The Graeme Clark Foundation - http://www.graemeclarkfoundation.org
Hear and Say Centre - http://www.hearandsay.com.au
La Trobe University ISP - Institute for Social Participation

Graeme Clark Foundation- The Graeme Clark Foundation aims to ensure that all deaf people can hear and develop their full potential in the world of sound. It is essential that the ground breaking research resulting in the cochlear implant (bionic ear), led by Graeme Clark and developed industrially by Cochlear Limited...

Welcome to the Hear and Say Centre’s website
The Hear and Say Centre is one of the leading Paediatric Auditory-Verbal and cochlear implant centres in the world, teaching children who are deaf or hearing impaired to listen and speak since 1992.

LaTrobe University: Issues of social participation are much-discussed and debated. The Institute for Social Participation (ISP) is committed to better understanding and enactment of the principles of social participation which we (provisionally) understand as the individual’s right to experience self-determined modes of engagement in all aspects of society. Such a definition refers to spheres of possible social engagement (e.g., interpersonal, social, vocational) and to individuals’ health, economic resources and social attitudes.

"Self-determined modes of engagement" - it's not self-determined if the parent determined that for the child.

So much for parents making informed decisions, huh?

jillio · 06-19-2011, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlleyCat

I understood what inmate was saying, grammatically correct or not.

As did I, which is why I agreed with the fundamental statement he was making regarding rights and choices.

deafdyke · 06-19-2011, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafbajagal

AVT = child abuse.

I agree 100% AVT IS child abuse. Pure and simple. There is nothing wrong with say sending your kid to Clarke so they can learn to talk. But, this constant focus on ensuring a dhh kid can be "normal" is effed up. If you read the ads in Volta Voices they promote AVT as " Your kid doesn't need to learn ASL, Cued Speech or speechreading."
WTF?!?!?! That to me is sad as heck. Why should a dhh kid be trained to ONLY use hearing, hearing and more hearing?
Most of the stuff seen in AVT is used in mainstream dhh ed. It's just that it exclusively focuses on hearing hearing and more hearing, and making sure the dhh kid functions as "normally" as possible. Sure they can hear....but without hearing aids/CIs or good quality health insurance they cannot function without hearing instruments.

jillio · 06-19-2011, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

They're not saying "listen fluently and speak fluently." The context of it all is about speaking fluently, not "listen fluently" which does not make sense when you consider the definition of the word "fluent." There is no such thing as "listen fluently" because "fluent" means to "express oneself effortlessly." It's already clear on what they meant when they said, "listen and speak fluently."

Fluently - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

fluently - definition of fluently by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

Yeah, their meaning is abundantly clear. Same old same old being fed to parents at their most vulnerable time.

jillio · 06-19-2011, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeafCaroline

WHAT?! My stomach just twisted right now. I can't believe this method exists. That sounds so...corporal and 19th century. Do they still use this method nowadays?

Not only does it still exist, but early implantation and all the nonsense being communicated to parents has seen a resurgance in techniques using AVT principles.

jillio · 06-19-2011, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

It's the CI and hearing aids that help them hear better. What AVT does is help improve the processing of the spoken language so that listening becomes automatic.

This is such a distorted statement, I don't even know where to begin to correct the mis-assumptions.

jillio · 06-19-2011, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

There always seems to be audist views whenever there are articles, videos or blogs about CIs. It is unfortunate.

I would go a step further, and say it is criminal.

jillio · 06-19-2011, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

Open up your mind a little bit.

Here's a story of Deaf parents and their deaf son's CI who use both AVT and ASL.
Deaf Parent's Cochlear Implant Story | Cochlear Implant Online | Hearing impairment

AVT doesn't have to be exclusive in every aspect of a child's day when it comes to communication.

That is downright scary.

Grummer · 06-19-2011, 01:02 AM

its ILLEGAL, well it SHOULD be

jillio · 06-19-2011, 01:04 AM

You know what I find ironic? The words "New deaf generation". There is nothing new here. Just a repeat of the same old audist policies that have kept deaf children undereducated and deaf adults in a position of oppression for centuries.

It doesn't work. When are you going to stop repeating history and try something else?

deafdyke · 06-19-2011, 01:21 AM

Quote:

It seems to me that children with the CIs (or HAs, if used) having access to sound much earlier will have a much easier time of it than today's "oral only" adult generation had when they themselves were youngsters.

If that is true, then how come there are still hoh kids with significent spoken language issues? They can hear easier and better....but they will still experiance a TON of the downsides of being mainstreamed, and the social emotional issues and stuff. The thing is....Geers, Moog and Flexor and those old lady pro oral only advocates think that ' you get a profoundly or severely deaf kid to hoh levels and everything is just fine and dandy." HOH kids have a lot of the same issues that deaf kids do. It's just that they're swept under the rug. We are mainstreamed and pushed towards the Hearing World. All I can say is that, I am pretty much a product of that sort of placement/methodology....and I know MANY MANY hoh kids who suffered under the system. Thing is.....the oral deaf advocates do not understand the downsides of the system.

Grummer · 06-19-2011, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

You know what I find ironic? The words "New deaf generation". There is nothing new here. Just a repeat of the same old audist policies that have kept deaf children undereducated and deaf adults in a position of oppression for centuries.

It doesn't work. When are you going to stop repeating history and try something else?

my thoughts exactly, it IS'NT new.
I too have SEEN First hand of this repeat, right here in New Zealand, that is a country of one of the kind in the world to have a NZSL (Sign Language) recognised as a third (yes, THIRD) offical language of this nation, yet it doesnt mean SHIT, it doesnt even have commission. No protection, more so, with CI-Hearing aids methods still rampant in Deaf education, there is no protection for should d/Deaf student falls behind due to an extraordinary amount of ignorance on just how hard it is for d/Deaf children struggles to assimilate to speech. It FAILED and STILL CONTINUES to FAIL. ALL to do with keeping parents happy with the 'lingustically crippled child/children, THE Ironic part is that (id add to Jill's comment) the speech,oralism is in FACT, (remember Facts are NEVER neutral, as a sociologist would maintain) in my way of using Fact, is this, it is undeniable but it is never recorded by authority, simply because 'authority' is those in the hands of the hearing educators, we Deaf people dont have commission to counter balance this findings to deem another 'facts'..
So in this line of thinking, fact is that oralised d/Deaf children are just getting MORE ****ed up especially now that the demands for highly literated up comers in the future workforce is simply NOT going to be met by CI/audism/oralism approaches , NO WAY!!
ALSO the crass lack of accommodation deemed by ADA and such like isnt going to do much without a means for Deaf people having an offical place to authorise the obligation to provide d/Deaf workers at free of charge to companies/small business/partnership/sold owners to employ or self-employ would be fantastic workers/leaders/business entreperurers...

Accommodation and recognition of alternatives to fit d/Deaf people is actually the FREEDOM which d/Deaf people rightly deserves AND are rightly to be in legal obligation. They already gave ramps to wheelchairs user (but they are Hearing -remember they speak the language of the majority) So its another thing altogether if not UNrelated...it is all related nevertheless!

kokonut · 06-19-2011, 01:38 AM

Well, technology is definitely tipping the scale.

deafdyke · 06-19-2011, 01:46 AM

jillo, have you seen a lot of the damage from the auditory verbal approach?
Even auditory oral is better then auditory verbal.

Quote:

now that the demands for highly literated up comers in the future workforce is simply NOT going to be met by CI/audism/oralism approaches , NO WAY!!
ALSO the crass lack of accommodation deemed by ADA and such like isnt going to do much without a means for Deaf people having an offical place to authorise the obligation to provide d/Deaf workers at free of charge to companies/small business/partnership/sold owners to employ or self-employ would be fantastic workers/leaders/business entreperurers...

Ditto. What pro AVT/auditory oral folks tend to brush under the rug is that yes...many kids do not need intense oral programming like in the old days with Clarke....BUT they still hit the fourth grade glass ceiling...not to mention the hell hole of middle and high school.

Grummer · 06-19-2011, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeafCaroline

They said "listen and speak fluently" - deaf children cannot hear fluently! Even with CIs, it's rare that they can "listen fluently". It's very very misleading information.

Listening 'fluently" is impossible because a Hearing culture is NOT visable, can never be taken for granted, not even by those so-called successful CI kids...they are trained to live 'in the bubble' which mimick the 'understanding of their environment' . It is UNNATURAL, moreso hearing kids arent gonna respond naturally, theres Always some kind of awkwardness. We deaf/Deaf people knows its intimately that feeling of deception and traded-communication to replace real emotion/attachment - even attraction...
not sure what im saying here, but im right now venturing to something i never said before... so there it goes, does anyone respond or could add to it? it'd be great if you could

Cheers
Yours in Sign

06-18-2011, 09:19 PM	#64 (permalink)
DeafCaroline Registered User Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 4,889	I just realized after reading that PDF "Communication Approaches Chart" that I was raised AVT. Gawd. It worked so well that here I am learning ASL and reaching out to Deaf people. deafdyke, Oceanbreeze, jillio and 1 others like this.

06-18-2011, 09:23 PM	#65 (permalink)
shel90 Let It Snow!!!! Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: A place where crabs are popular Posts: 40,302 Blog Entries: 3	[QUOTE=DeafCaroline;1844609]I just realized after reading that PDF "Communication Approaches Chart" that I was raised AVT. Gawd. It worked so well that here I am learning ASL and reaching out to Deaf people. [/QUOTE] __________________ "Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it." --- Anonymous

06-18-2011, 09:36 PM	#67 (permalink)
deafbajagal Registered User Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: USA Posts: 5,171	AVT = child abuse. deafdyke, Miss-Delectable, shel90 and 3 others like this.

06-19-2011, 12:40 AM	#74 (permalink)
jillio Banned Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 60,296	[QUOTE=kokonut;1844266]Parents are the guardian of their own children. They make the necessary informed decision.[/QUOTE] They make a decision. Far, far too often, it is not an informed decision, because all of the information regarding the implications of that decision have not been provided to them. To believe that parents are getting all of the information prior to making a decision to implant is just naive. They are pushed to make the decision NOW, BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE. That goes hand in hand with not being fully informed. deafdyke, Miss-Delectable, Buffalo and 1 others like this.

06-19-2011, 01:02 AM	#84 (permalink)
Grummer Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: In the Batcave Posts: 9,528	its ILLEGAL, well it SHOULD be __________________ "Problems cannot be solved at the same level of awareness that created them." Albert Einstein

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06-19-2011, 01:04 AM	#85 (permalink)
jillio Banned Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 60,296	You know what I find ironic? The words "New deaf generation". There is nothing new here. Just a repeat of the same old audist policies that have kept deaf children undereducated and deaf adults in a position of oppression for centuries. It doesn't work. When are you going to stop repeating history and try something else? Grummer, deafskeptic, Bebonang and 1 others like this.

06-19-2011, 01:38 AM	#88 (permalink)
kokonut Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 15,348	Well, technology is definitely tipping the scale. __________________ Before AD. After AD. "Restriction on free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions. It is the one un-American act that could most easily defeat us." -Thurgood Marshall, former Supreme Court Justice "... turns out they are telling the truth."

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