Snubbing the Deaf community?

[Jiro]

oh wow @ video. funny thing is that I've been doing same (both gestures and mouth morphemes) as added visual expression to my spoken language for a long time. I guess I'm just a naturally-born visually-expressive person. but I did learn something new in this video.... so I'll have to correct my way to proper ASL format. I noticed recently that I do not use "#3" sign in hearing way (which is same as #8 sign) anymore. hooray! *pat pat pat on my own back*

my friends always laugh at my facial expressions usually at something disgusting, shocking, etc. cuz it's that funny.

[jillio]

Originally Posted by Jiro

oh wow @ video. funny thing is that I've been doing same (both gestures and mouth morphemes) as added visual expression to my spoken language for a long time. I guess I'm just a naturally-born visually-expressive person. but I did learn something new in this video.... so I'll have to correct my way to proper ASL format. I noticed recently that I do not use "#3" sign in hearing way (which is same as #8 sign) anymore. hooray! *pat pat pat on my own back*

my friends always laugh at my facial expressions usually at something disgusting, shocking, etc. cuz it's that funny.

I find the mouth morphemes to be a very natural thing when signing ASL. I found many years ago, that I was actually using most of the right morphemes before I even knew what they were. Your mouth and face just seems to naturally assume those positions when using ASL syntax.

[jillio]

You know, I was shocked to learn on the net recently that there are those oral deaf that actually object to deaf babies being called deaf babies.

And yet, they don't see that their attitude is the problem in being rejected by the Deaf Community.

[souggy]

I thought hearing people use the #3 sign as a "W," instead of #8?

[jillio]

Originally Posted by souggy

I thought hearing people use the #3 sign as a "W," instead of #8?

Yeah, hearing people's #3 looks like a #6 in ASL. Or turned the other way, a "W".

[souggy]

I say "W" because when hearing people do the number 3, it's straight fingers.

With the #6, the fingers are slightly bent.

I can never really figure out why hearing people use "W" for the number 3.. it hurts, at least it does for me, when I feel the strain from holding the "W" for too long. .So I ;prefer the ASL #3... less painful.

[rockin'robin]

Originally Posted by jillio

If you are being snubbed by both groups, perhaps it is not the groups that is the issue.

I'm not "snubbed" by both groups all the time, Jillo....there are times when full deafies are conversing, and I feel left out, because the only way I can fully understand is they move their mouths along with signing, and not signing too fast.....As stated prior, in school I was not allowed to sign, just use voice, and my fully deafened friends know how it is with me. And take time to make sure I understand, but at times, they get "carried away", that's when I feel "left out" and somewhat "snubbed"...having to pull someone aside and ask what is being said.

As for my hearing friends, it's "one on one"....I cannot join a group of hearies, all talking, cannot follow the conversations. But I cannot expect a group of hearies to "face me and talk slow"....I do have hearing friends that understand, and step aside at times and tell me what is being said.

I appreciate both deafies and hearies for taking their time with me. It's the ones that say "never mind" and both defies and hearies do that at times. Then we feel "snubbed'.

My boys, we have "one on one". It's special. They are not fluent in sign language and neither am I. We speak and sign, both. As long as I'm facing them, we can understand each other very easily.

Same thing with intrepretors. Every one I've had, I've explained that my only clear mode of communication is they mouth the words along with signs, and not talk/sign too fast. I feel sure there are others that have this problem.

[jillio]

Originally Posted by rockin'robin

I'm not "snubbed" by both groups all the time, Jillo....there are times when full deafies are conversing, and I feel left out, because the only way I can fully understand is they move their mouths along with signing, and not signing too fast.....As stated prior, in school I was not allowed to sign, just use voice, and my fully deafened friends know how it is with me. And take time to make sure I understand, but at times, they get "carried away", that's when I feel "left out" and somewhat "snubbed"...having to pull someone aside and ask what is being said.

As for my hearing friends, it's "one on one"....I cannot join a group of hearies, all talking, cannot follow the conversations. But I cannot expect a group of hearies to "face me and talk slow"....I do have hearing friends that understand, and step aside at times and tell me what is being said.

I appreciate both deafies and hearies for taking their time with me. It's the ones that say "never mind" and both defies and hearies do that at times. Then we feel "snubbed'.

My boys, we have "one on one". It's special. They are not fluent in sign language and neither am I. We speak and sign, both. As long as I'm facing them, we can understand each other very easily.

Same thing with intrepretors. Every one I've had, I've explained that my only clear mode of communication is they mouth the words along with signs, and not talk/sign too fast. I feel sure there are others that have this problem.

The bolded is a perfect example of how deafies feel in the majority culture, and why protecting their Deaf Culture is important to them.

[Jiro]

Originally Posted by souggy

I thought hearing people use the #3 sign as a "W," instead of #8?

Originally Posted by jillio

Yeah, hearing people's #3 looks like a #6 in ASL. Or turned the other way, a "W".

OOPS!!!!!!!!! I need to practice my ASL number. *conk myself* You are right - the hearing way for #3 is same as ASL #6

[jillio]

Originally Posted by Jiro

OOPS!!!!!!!!! I need to practice my ASL number. *conk myself* You are right - the hearing way for #3 is same as ASL #6

Not a problem. I knew what you meant.

[Cheri]

Originally Posted by rockin'robin

I'm not "snubbed" by both groups all the time, Jillo....there are times when full deafies are conversing, and I feel left out, because the only way I can fully understand is they move their mouths along with signing, and not signing too fast.....As stated prior, in school I was not allowed to sign, just use voice, and my fully deafened friends know how it is with me. And take time to make sure I understand, but at times, they get "carried away", that's when I feel "left out" and somewhat "snubbed"...having to pull someone aside and ask what is being said.

As for my hearing friends, it's "one on one"....I cannot join a group of hearies, all talking, cannot follow the conversations. But I cannot expect a group of hearies to "face me and talk slow"....I do have hearing friends that understand, and step aside at times and tell me what is being said.

I appreciate both deafies and hearies for taking their time with me. It's the ones that say "never mind" and both defies and hearies do that at times. Then we feel "snubbed'.

My boys, we have "one on one". It's special. They are not fluent in sign language and neither am I. We speak and sign, both. As long as I'm facing them, we can understand each other very easily.

Same thing with intrepretors. Every one I've had, I've explained that my only clear mode of communication is they mouth the words along with signs, and not talk/sign too fast. I feel sure there are others that have this problem.

I do have the same problem, I can only understand if they mouth the words along with signs, and all my interpreters do mouth their words (without voice) along signs. Many ADers I have met does the same as you and I, every one of them mouth their words as they sign. As you know there are many signing individuals do not necessarily use the same signs, so reading their mouth and signs the same time sure helps.

[rockin'robin]

Originally Posted by jillio

The bolded is a perfect example of how deafies feel in the majority culture, and why protecting their Deaf Culture is important to them.

Please "explain".....I would like to fully understand wat you are implying, OK?

[jillio]

Originally Posted by rockin'robin

Please "explain".....I would like to fully understand wat you are implying, OK?

I'm not implying anything. Read the comment I bolded. That is how deafies feel in the majority culture. That is why they protect their deaf culture. It serves as an insulator against opression and rejection.

When I enter their culture I abide by their rules and norms, as I should. It is their culture. I have never had a problem being rejected by the deaf community. Nor have I ever seen anyone who made the effort to abide by their cultural norms in dealing with them be rejected, either. That is not to say that I have not seen people rejected. Just not because they speak. Sign ASL, or at least make a reasonable attempt to do so, and rejection doesn't occur. It is a culture based on language. Acceptance is not automatic based on hearing status. It is based on respect for and adherence to their culural norms. The same as in any culture.

[souggy]

Originally Posted by Jiro

OOPS!!!!!!!!! I need to practice my ASL number. *conk myself* You are right - the hearing way for #3 is same as ASL #6

Just making sure it's not a New Yorker thing since I am hoping to get my foreigner butt over there next summer.

[Jiro]

Originally Posted by jillio

I'm not implying anything. Read the comment I bolded. That is how deafies feel in the majority culture. That is why they protect their deaf culture. It serves as an insulator against opression and rejection.

When I enter their culture I abide by their rules and norms, as I should. It is their culture. I have never had a problem being rejected by the deaf community. Nor have I ever seen anyone who made the effort to abide by their cultural norms in dealing with them be rejected, either. That is not to say that I have not seen people rejected. Just not because they speak. Sign ASL, or at least make a reasonable attempt to do so, and rejection doesn't occur. It is a culture based on language. Acceptance is not automatic based on hearing status. It is based on respect for and adherence to their culural norms. The same as in any culture.

whoa. well-said. that applies to any culture in the world like a white man living in foreign country such as Japan or Africa. A Westerner woman living in Middle Eastern country that abides by strict Islamic laws. Both must abide by their cultural norm or face rejection.... or even jail.

[Jiro]

Originally Posted by souggy

Just making sure it's not a New Yorker thing since I am hoping to get my foreigner butt over there next summer.

[jillio]

Originally Posted by Jiro

whoa. well-said. that applies to any culture in the world like a white man living in foreign country such as Japan or Africa. A Westerner woman living in Middle Eastern country that abides by strict Islamic laws. Both must abide by their cultural norm or face rejection.... or even jail.

Exactly. If I were to enter your mother's home, I would respect those norms that she chooses to practice there. It is called respect. At the same time, I would not expect her to enter my home, and try to change my norms and values.

[rockin'robin]

Originally Posted by Cheri

I do have the same problem, I can only understand if they mouth the words along with signs, and all my interpreters do mouth their words (without voice) along signs. Many ADers I have met does the same as you and I, every one of them mouth their words as they sign. As you know there are many signing individuals do not necessarily use the same signs, so reading their mouth and signs the same time sure helps.

Sure thing, Cheri! Thks so much. And it does help me when they mouth the words. Some fully deafened do also, which makes it so much easier to understand them if they are signing very fast (especially signing a word). There is no way I can understand a deafie if they keep their mouth closed completely and sign away. Sometimes their body language helps!

But I do understand that some fully deafies cannot mouth the words, and that's when it makes me not able to understand them. So asking them to "slow down" with their signing, gets irritable to them sometimes!....

[jillio]

Then how, exactly would you propose that those problems with communication be resolved? Do you see it as the Deaf Culture's responsibility to conform to your needs?

[nope]

Originally Posted by jillio

Then how, exactly would you propose that those problems with communication be resolved? Do you see it as the Deaf Culture's responsibility to conform to your needs?

Sorry to intrude on the conversation, but I think you bring up a really interesting point. If two people are having issues communicating, regardless of whether they are both deaf or both hearing, they're both going to have to make concessions. If one person isn't willing to repeat what they said or sign slower, then those two people aren't going to be able to hold much of a conversation.

I don't sign well at all. I'm just learning and although I practice a lot and try my hardest, it's a slow process and there will be lots I don't understand for a very long time to come. If a fluent signer doesn't want to take the time to sign with me, doesn't want to repeat signs or fingerspell slower, then we don't have much of a chance of communicating and it's going to be a waste of both our time.

I understand that and it doesn't bother me. If someone is willing to take the time to help me out, then I know they are genuinely interested in getting to know me. Sometimes people don't want to have to put much effort into just conversing, and signing with me is probably a chore. I appreciate those who are willing, but I'm not offended when people don't want to make the effort. I understand, it's not their job.

I think it's also important to remember that just because one person doesn't want to try and sign with me, doesn't mean the next person is going to feel the same way. You just have to evaluate every person you meet as an individual, no matter if they're Deaf, deaf, or hearing.

[shel90]

Originally Posted by Cheri

Well, I sure haven't seen anyone bragging about their speaking abilities only that they're glad that they learned how to speak. So what? It's the same as how a deaf person say they can hear better with cochlear implant than they did with hearing aids. Again so what. Why does it bother you guys?

Speaking and signing at the same time is not ASL. There are different sign languages which are LSQ, Auslan, and so on. SEE and Sim-Com arent part of sign languages because they arent languages themselves.

This thread is not about how well a deaf person can speak or can hear. This is a thread about people saying that they dont need the Deaf community and seeing all of us as one person rather than as individual with different personalities, ambitions, backgrounds, and quirks.

[jillio]

Originally Posted by nope

Sorry to intrude on the conversation, but I think you bring up a really interesting point. If two people are having issues communicating, regardless of whether they are both deaf or both hearing, they're both going to have to make concessions. If one person isn't willing to repeat what they said or sign slower, then those two people aren't going to be able to hold much of a conversation.

I don't sign well at all. I'm just learning and although I practice a lot and try my hardest, it's a slow process and there will be lots I don't understand for a very long time to come. If a fluent signer doesn't want to take the time to sign with me, doesn't want to repeat signs or fingerspell slower, then we don't have much of a chance of communicating and it's going to be a waste of both our time.

I understand that and it doesn't bother me. If someone is willing to take the time to help me out, then I know they are genuinely interested in getting to know me. Sometimes people don't want to have to put much effort into just conversing, and signing with me is probably a chore. I appreciate those who are willing, but I'm not offended when people don't want to make the effort. I understand, it's not their job.

I think it's also important to remember that just because one person doesn't want to try and sign with me, doesn't mean the next person is going to feel the same way. You just have to evaluate every person you meet as an individual, no matter if they're Deaf, deaf, or hearing.

No problem! Your input is always appreciated.

[sallylou]

Yes, shel, it's stereotyping. It's not treating people as individuals.

In any group of people, there are going to be people with whom you "click" and people with whom you don't feel a connection. You may not share any common interests with certain people. It's ignorant to dismiss a whole group of people without getting to know each one as an individual. It's wrong to attribute the actions of one deaf person to the entire deaf culture. As humans, we are often sloppy thinkers.

[sallylou]

If I'd read more carefully, I would have noticed that nope already made this point.

You just have to evaluate every person you meet as an individual, no matter if they're Deaf, deaf, orhearing.

[shel90]

Originally Posted by sallylou

Yes, shel, it's stereotyping. It's not treating people as individuals.

In any group of people, there are going to be people with whom you "click" and people with whom you don't feel a connection. You may not share any common interests with certain people. It's ignorant to dismiss a whole group of people without getting to know each one as an individual. It's wrong to attribute the actions of one deaf person to the entire deaf culture. As humans, we are often sloppy thinkers.

So what do you think of those parents who say that their deaf kids dont need to be around deaf children or deaf adults especially those who are ASL users?

I think it is setting a very bad example.

[sallylou]

I think that those parents are audists who are hurting their own children. I wish that I had been brought up in deaf culture. My family had too much shame and denial to join the deaf community. I won't make that mistake. I very much appreciate the deaf community. I don't know what I would do without it.

[Bottesini]

Originally Posted by shel90

Speaking and signing at the same time is not ASL. There are different sign languages which are LSQ, Auslan, and so on. SEE and Sim-Com arent part of sign languages because they arent languages themselves.

This thread is not about how well a deaf person can speak or can hear. This is a thread about people saying that they dont need the Deaf community and seeing all of us as one person rather than as individual with different personalities, ambitions, backgrounds, and quirks.

Did someone say quirk???

[Dustine]

I personally do not think there is anything wrong with people making individual choices that impact their lives and their happiness. However, would you find a cure for blackness, Judaism, homosexuality? These are cultures; they have distinct social patterns and in some case a very distinct language. As much as you say it is a selfless act it is also the imposition of the majority upon the minority. The statement that 75% of the deaf population would welcome a cure is a big assumption as well as a majority mentality placing a hierarchy upon hearing ability.
As for self-esteem that also can be contributed to the majority. If the majority sees a flaw and seeks to correct or eradicate it that sends a negative message to a developing ego. It is human nature to accept and it is human nature to belong. When the statement was made that we need social groups to function that is a true statement. Unfortunately, due to the oppressive nature of the majority many seek to associate themselves with that in order to avoid the harshness placed upon the sub-group they most identify with (Taylor & Moghaddam, 1994). I could not venture to say why the woman reacted, behaved, responded the way she did. It would be disrespectful to assume her reasons or anyone else.
As for the word “normal” is concerned I would encourage you to read Deborah Britzman as she discuss the societal pressure of this word and the desire of the majority to define this word in order to oppress those who are different. She also talks about the process of labeling and who decides these labels.

Final note, I encourage people to find self then community but the saying goes it takes a village to raise a child and when we refuse children that village the self becomes a greater struggle.

[sallylou]

"Normal" is a setting on a washing machine. I don't think it applies to people.

[CJB]

Originally Posted by sallylou

"Normal" is a setting on a washing machine. I don't think it applies to people.